Train Crash near Santiago de Compostela, Spain.

[ReverendFozz]

Am I right in thinking that in the UK the TVM system steps the train's speed down ready to join the classic lines with the signalling boundary being at or near the actual junction. Looking at the Driver's Eye View posted earlier in the thread there seems to be an electrical changeover (25kV > 3kV?) a couple of tunnels before the curve. At this point conventional signals and speed signs appear. Is it possible that the trains hand over from ETCS to Classic Signalling while still at speed? It seems the train in the video started braking after the changeover...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There are cameras all along the line, if the line perimiter is breached then the signallers can see instantly if it's people, animals, debris etc. I'm assuming footage is recorded in the local signalbox and 'leaked' to the media without Renfe's permission in the same way that alleged radio transmission did

Are the lineside cameras webcams or is it purely a cctv system for the train company and signallers, if so, could say, an enthusiast or someone else watching have been been the source of the leak of the video?

Sent from my HTC Wildfire S A510e using Tapatalk 2

 

[cjp]

The curve comes immediately after tens of miles of straight or very gently curving track where the new line joins the classic lines to reach Santiago station. Beyond Santiago the new line again takes up a straight route.

Much of the new line is in a multitude tunnels the final one on this approach ending no more than 100m from the start of this curve.

Given these circumstances, long straights, limited visibility, sudden change in direction one would have expected at least some warning and given available rail technology some degree of automation.

A view from the cab at the curve and approach to it
http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/07/25/videos/1374763656_833539.html?autoplay=1

 

[cambsy]

On the curving high speed West Coast mainline there is also TASS which stands for tilt and speed supervision, which put brakes on at 3-4mph over line speed limit on the tilt sections of the line, which is why the non stop special record attempt run only got up to 128mph, if had gone faster the brakes would have gone on and scuppered the run, this accident couldn't happen on this line, my thoughts go to all those killed in this horrific accident.

 

[jon0844]

If this turns out to be driver error, there will still be many questions to answer, along with the inevitable conclusion that that this was an accident waiting to happen.

The driver will have to live with this the rest of his life. I do hope the media holds off the character assassination, but obviously that isn't going to happen.

 

[ReverendFozz]

If this turns out to be driver error, there will still be many questions to answer, along with the inevitable conclusion that that this was an accident waiting to happen.

The driver will have to live with this the rest of his life. I do hope the media holds off the character assassination, but obviously that isn't going to happen.

Exactly, but with the way news is today, with rolling coverage and the internet, and the fact news outlets are pointing out the drivers actions at every opportunity, I can't see the character assassination stopping anytime soon, I do hope the guy gets treat fair by the justice system, but with the way we see trial by media would he ever get a full fair hearing

 

[Antman]

Exactly, but with the way news is today, with rolling coverage and the internet, and the fact news outlets are pointing out the drivers actions at every opportunity, I can't see the character assassination stopping anytime soon, I do hope the guy gets treat fair by the justice system, but with the way we see trial by media would he ever get a full fair hearing

I can't see why he shouldn't get a fair hearing?

 

[jon0844]

If it's a case of a genuine human error, which has been the cause of many a air crash, then of course he's going to have to face the music - but it would appear from what I'm reading here (not yet seeing what the papers are saying directly) that they've now got it into their heads that he was deliberately out to thrill seek by going as fast as possible?

Even though there might not have been a technical fault with the train, I do hope that it will prompt the industry to realise that you need to implement systems that can stop people making mistakes - as they are only human.

I'm quite glad it sounds like we've got such systems here, for the most part, as I don't believe anyone can say that our drivers are so professional that they would never speed - or that any driver hasn't at least once in their career made a mistake in judging something, or forgetting part of their route knowledge for a moment.

 

[Antman]

If it's a case of a genuine human error, which has been the cause of many a air crash, then of course he's going to have to face the music - but it would appear from what I'm reading here (not yet seeing what the papers are saying directly) that they've now got it into their heads that he was deliberately out to thrill seek by going as fast as possible?

Even though there might not have been a technical fault with the train, I do hope that it will prompt the industry to realise that you need to implement systems that can stop people making mistakes - as they are only human.

I'm quite glad it sounds like we've got such systems here, for the most part, as I don't believe anyone can say that our drivers are so professional that they would never speed - or that any driver hasn't at least once in their career made a mistake in judging something, or forgetting part of their route knowledge for a moment.

We all make mistakes and nobody should be crucified for it but if (and I said IF) he was 'thrill seeking' then it puts a totally different angle on it all.

I'm sure it will all come out in the wash, those injured and the relatives of those who lost their lives deserve that at the very least.

 

[ReverendFozz]

I can't see why he shouldn't get a fair hearing?

The media seem to be doing a sterling job of being judge, jury and executioner right now

Sent from my HTC Wildfire S A510e using Tapatalk 2

 

[jon0844]

Did they not learn anything from the way they treated Chris Jeffries?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Did they not learn anything from the way they treated Chris Jeffries?

they never ever learn

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'm no expert, but I can't see that an emergency brake application (which can happen fairly regularly) would lead to a carriage tipping over. That would've been a basic but major design problem that would have been identified before now.

Normally, yes - but if the brakes acted at the front sooner than at the back?


Looking carefully at the video frame by frame it looks more like it is the second carriage ( ie the third vehicle in the train ) which pitches up first, not the first carriage ( second vehicle ). It looks like this carriage pitches up over the top of the one in front of it, which it then pushes over and that in turn brings the locomotive over.

Lighter vehicle riding up over a heavier one?



that the speed is the main factor is not in doubt; what we do not yet know is the reason for the speed being what it was.

 

[Kneedown]

This a long thread so please accept my apologies if this has already been raised and i've missed it.
Normally i would refrain from commenting on an incident such as this before the official enquiry had concluded, but i have heard a lot of people on various news sites and elsewhere drawing their own conclusions and calling for the Drivers head on a platter, especially after his alleged admission of the speed at which the train entered the curve, that i feel the need to expand the debate.
If the Drivers alleged words are true, then there could be a number of reasons as to why the train entered the curve at that speed. There is as yet no evidence that i can see of maliciousness or recklessness. A facebook post from several months ago proves nothing with regard to this tragic incident.

I'm not sure if there is a Spanish equivalent of TPWS, but if so the question has to be asked as to why it didn't intervene if fitted. I'm also not an expert in the area where the incident occurred, but i note that the train was generally travelling in a northwesterly direction, and the incident occurred shortly before sunset. Is there a possibility that the Driver could have become disorientated due to the low sun in his eyes and been farther along the track than he thought, the higher speed giving him less time to react? Human factors issues may play a part.

Of course, all this is just my thoughts as to possible causes and in no way indicative as to what actually did happen and i trust that the investigation will uncover the full facts and act accordingly, with legal procedings if neccessary.
Until such time as this it is wrong for anyone to vilify a person.

 

[jon0844]

Reading the comments on one of the Guardian stories.. Wow!

People moaning about the metric system and why it was in kph, not mph..

People saying it was obviously down to lack of funding/investment.

People saying the Spanish are corrupt and cut corners.

People saying the driver was probably on his mobile taking a photo of the speedo for Facebook.

And of course loads of conclusions drawn from the video, showing their absolutely in-depth knowledge of how a train at speed would crash.

No doubt there will be some who are adamant in the future that this WAS a terrorist incident, or someone had tampered with the train, and that the driver is merely a scapegoat. Joining 9/11, 7/7 and every other disaster as being one big Government conspiracy.

This is one of my favourites:

In all likelihood, he was overworked, very tired, fell asleep and no-one picked up the alarm at the control centre because they were also overworked, tired and fell asleep. Of course he'll get the blame because he is the driver. Also, with all the austerity measures imposed on economies, they probably skimped a bit here and there on the safety measures. Of course, you don't get the president travelling on these trains every day, they just visit afterwards.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Condolences to everyone who lost their lives in this awful accident.

I haven't been following the story fully, but could there be a possibility that technical failure have been a cause, either through the brakes being non-operational, or the train continuing to accelerate on its own accord. That said, it is likely to have been human error, but we'll have to wait and see, and ignore the media witch hunt.

I tend to disregard anyone who argues that every disaster is some sort of conspiracy theory. Harsh, but it does work.

 

[jon0844]

Another comment on the Guardian site:

Is the train company privatised? Then the driver was speeding so that the CEO got an increased bonus.

These t**ts are the reason that Governments eventually get to justify censorship, as some people seem to forget that with free speech comes responsibility.

 

[185]

Normally, yes - but if the brakes acted at the front sooner than at the back?


Looking carefully at the video frame by frame it looks more like it is the second carriage ( ie the third vehicle in the train ) which pitches up first, not the first carriage ( second vehicle ). It looks like this carriage pitches up over the top of the one in front of it, which it then pushes over and that in turn brings the locomotive over.

Lighter vehicle riding up over a heavier one?



that the speed is the main factor is not in doubt; what we do not yet know is the reason for the speed being what it was.

Vehicle 1- Driving end. Heavy
Vehicle 2- Technical car/generator. Heavy
Vehicle 3- Furthest forward passenger car. Light.

Probably gonna be the first to not stay upright.

 

[notadriver]

When I said train drivers don't speed I meant they don't do it deliberately and I'll stand by that.

 

[Johnuk123]

Another comment on the Guardian site:



These t**ts are the reason that Governments eventually get to justify censorship, as some people seem to forget that with free speech comes responsibility.

I can't believe what I'm reading here - you're calling some Guardian readers t**ts on this site !

 

[jon0844]

That changes everything, and also means British drivers could speed - just not deliberately.

What you wrote before was that British drivers are professional and never speed - implying there could never be a mistake here, and that this Spanish driver can't have been a professional, or else how could the train have been going too fast?

I can't believe what I'm reading here - you're calling some Guardian readers t**ts on this site !

I haven't dared see what they're saying on the Daily Mail/Mail Online.

 

[Johnuk123]

I haven't dared see what they're saying on the Daily Mail/Mail Online.

Exactly, couldn't you change the name of your source to the Daily Mail so as to appear par for the course. Go on, nobody will have noticed yet.

 

[Marklund]

You are free to draw whatever inference you like from my posts but I think the 'know-all, know-nothing' comment is a little unfair. I used the tools at my disposal to find some examples of incidents where the primary cause was (British) driver error due to excessive speed. How is that borne of 'pure ignorance'?

Because at least one of the ones you had listed had other major contributory factors.

Punching in train accidents speeding uk in to Google/Wikipedia isn't research.
Reading the full accident enquiry reports is.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Another comment on the Guardian site:

These t**ts are the reason that Governments eventually get to justify censorship, as some people seem to forget that with free speech comes responsibility.

No worse than those on the daily mail site trying to claim it only happened because the operator is state owned, and no way would it happen if a private company ran the services.

 

[Johnuk123]

No worse than those on the daily mail site trying to claim it only happened because the operator is state owned, and no way would it happen if a private company ran the services.

Classic, I knew somebody would be on here like a flash with a post exactly like that.

Have a look in the Sun as they must have a similar story.

 

[jon0844]

No worse than those on the daily mail site trying to claim it only happened because the operator is state owned, and no way would it happen if a private company ran the services.

Oh, the Guardian has similar posts and accusations.

For something like this, it wouldn't matter one bit whether it was state owned or privately run.

Most of my personal views about renationalisation are to do with whether we would actually get a better service, save money, have cheaper fares etc - not safety, which I'd expect to be the same regardless (even if Bob Crow might disagree).

Come to think of, what has Bob said about this? He must have said something.

 

[Johnuk123]

Come to think of, what has Bob said about this? He must have said something.

I believe he said it wouldn't have happened under a Labour Government.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Vehicle 1- Driving end. Heavy
Vehicle 2- Technical car/generator. Heavy
Vehicle 3- Furthest forward passenger car. Light.

Probably gonna be the first to not stay upright.

Agreed, but my point was everyone seems to be saying the generator car came off first; upon a close look at the video it was the one behind it, riding up before overturning.

 

[rebmcr]

Are there any engineers about who could say whether this is a good idea:

Electromagnetic track brakes, that automatically weld the bogies to the rails, if imminent derailment due to excessive sideways force is detected.

Granted, false positives would become stupidly expensive, but they've been around for a long time on trams, so you'd just have to make sure the sensors were bulletproof.

 

[wilsontown]

My guess is that that wouldn't work. Firstly, because by the time you're detecting significant lateral force it's probably too late for a brake application to do much good. Also, if you're using track brakes would that not contribute to unloading the wheelsets? There's probably a reason why track brakes aren't used on heavy rail.

I am not an engineer.

 

[Antman]

Classic, I knew somebody would be on here like a flash with a post exactly like that.

Have a look in the Sun as they must have a similar story.

Why does almost every thread have to degenerate into a (usually unjustified) attack on newspapers:roll: