Train Crash near Santiago de Compostela, Spain.

[ainsworth74]

If that is true, I hope he faces manslaughter charges for every death and face charges for every injury and get consecutive prison sentences for it...

Before hanging him from the nearest yard arm I would suggest that you consider that the bragging took place over a year ago whilst travelling on a section of line where 200kph was the permitted speed. Further he was apparently egged on by a commenter on the picture to go faster but refused.

Whilst it's somewhat unprofessional it is far from enough to hang him out to dry as you seem to want to.

 

[Bungle73]

If that is true, I hope he faces manslaughter charges for every death and face charges for every injury and get consecutive prison sentences for it...

What I want to know is how did El Pais get hold of the radio message of the driver seemingly admitting he was speeding

Let the witch hunt begin............

What's wrong with "bragging" about going at legal speed of the train?

 

[Antman]

Spanish media are saying the driver liked to brag about his speed on facebook and posted photos on there of the speed dial etc, no swear words are enough to describe this bloke if this is true.

There are also various online reports about the drivers alleged obsession for speed and that he had bragged about flouting speed limits and the suggestion is that he pushed his luck just a bit too far on this occasion.

 

[Bungle73]

There are also various online reports about the drivers alleged obsession for speed and that he had bragged about flouting speed limits and the suggestion is that he pushed his luck just a bit too far on this occasion.

Sorry I don't buy it. This wasn't just a little over the limit, it was waaaaaay over it. That's too much for someone just pushing things a bit too far.

 

[ainsworth74]

Are any of these 'reports' based on solid fact or just part of the media witch hunt which appears to be brewing up quite nicely.

 

[185]

Their media reported the driver had previously made FB comments mentioning guarda civil and getting caught speeding with a train having the fine passed to Renfe...

Perhaps either unfortunate or signs of someone who is a serious risk.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

If the speed he supposedly bragged about was within the speed limit then I don't see much of an issue except perhaps whether it is professional or not.

Doesn't seem overly likely that someone would boast about driving at legal linespeed.

If he was boasting about speeding, need to ask why he was still in the job.

 

[WatcherZero]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-Im-at-190-kmph-and-were-going-to-derail.html

"I'm at 190 (kmph) and I'm going to derail!" the engine driver told the controllers of RENFE, the rail network.

Police sources told Spanish newspaper El Pais that, moments after the crash, the traumatised driver made another call to the operator.

It derailed!" he said. "What am I going to do, what am I going to do?

"We are all humans – we're humans. I hope there are no fatalities because it will all be on my conscience."


The driver told police that he had entered the bend "fuerte" (strong).

 

[ainsworth74]

Doesn't seem overly likely that someone would boast about driving at legal linespeed.

If he was boasting about speeding, need to ask why he was still in the job.

There is a rather woeful lack of context to his boast. I can easily see one reason for boasting simply being 'look how fast I'm going compared to all you guys stuck in your cars at 110kph'. It doesn't necessarily have to mean 'look how fast I'm going above linespeed'. And again he responded to a comment on that picture stating that he couldn't go any faster as that was the linespeed (at least something along those lines, it was in Spanish after all ).

 

[ReverendFozz]

Before hanging him from the nearest yard arm I would suggest that you consider that the bragging took place over a year ago whilst travelling on a section of line where 200kph was the permitted speed. Further he was apparently egged on by a commenter on the picture to go faster but refused.

Whilst it's somewhat unprofessional it is far from enough to hang him out to dry as you seem to want to.

I apologise, I was just replying on what was already posted...

I believe in innocence till proven otherwise, and I meant to say, if it is human error and could have been avoided, then he should be left to rot...

 

[Bill EWS]

Bignose Mac: Your list is nonsense in that they are are all incidents from many years back and railway technology and driver training has moved a long way from then. Each of those cases were all individual incidents and will have occurred to varying situations and have little or no connection with this latest incident in Spain.

All cabs have black box recorders today and they are downloaded after any serious incident or on 'spec' ocassions by train crew inspectors to get an average indication as to how drivers are carrying out their duties in general. A driver never knows when this will happen and must always drive as if there is every chance that it will.

I just hate know-all, know-nothings who get onto these boards simply because they have a computer and connected to the internet and spout from pure ignorance, added no doubt with their own prejudges.

I have made some professional guesses from the video but even then I would say nothing or condemn the driver until the offical inquest has been made public. I would suggest that most of you do the same. Believing what you read or hear in the media is equally stupid as these reporters probably know as little about railways and their workings as the majority of the general public does.

 

[leananger]

I cannot help but notice how badly the carriages were split open which obviously contributes to many deaths. Would the same happen to our carriages in the UK?

 

[richw]

Would there be any possibility of brake failure, or poor adhesion? The speed he hit the corner at was a speed that was permitted not far away on the approach so would be a permitted speed on approach.
Maybe a question that should be asked is should such a sharp bend be allowed so close to the end of a high speed sector.
It seems the driver has been hung out to dry by the media, without even hinting by the media at other possibilities.

 

[YorkshireRider]

I cannot help but notice how badly the carriages were split open which obviously contributes to many deaths. Would the same happen to our carriages in the UK?

The carriages went straight into a solid concrete war at well (reportedly?) over 100mph, yes I think any train carriages anywhere in the world, the same would have happened.

 

[starrymarkb]

Name escapes but im told the line had been partially converted to ERTMS for high speed, speed limits are displayed in cab but on this section of the line the driver is able to go faster than the limits.

Heard a story, dont know if true or not that after the crash the driver had radioed control to report it and said 'I think I may have been going too fast... Im only Human, Im only Human'

Looking at the Drivers Eye Video Posted earlier there seemed to be an electrical system changeover signed a couple of tunnels before, then normal light signals and speed limit signs appear. I suspect that is the change point...

 

[CC 72100]

And again he responded to a comment on that picture stating that he couldn't go any faster as that was the linespeed (at least something along those lines, it was in Spanish after all ).

Yes, you're right. El Pais article and my translation below:

From: http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2013/07/25/galicia/1374755988_825305.html

Algunos de sus contactos en la red social hicieron comentarios a esta foto y él se jactó de la velocidad que usualmente alcanzaba durante su trabajo, aunque admitió: “Estoy en el límite. No puedo correr más si no me multan”. En un comentario posterior, bromeó: “Qué gozada sería ir en paralelo con la Guardia Civil y pasarles haciendo saltar el radar. Menuda multa para Renfe”.

Some of his friends on the social network site commented on the photo and he boasted about the speed he usually reached while doing his job, although he admitted "I'm within the (speed) limit. I can't go faster or they'll fine me." In a previous comment, he joked "What a delight it would be to go side by side with the Guardia Civil and pass them (at a speed) off the radar. Little fine for Renfe".

 

[johnnychips]

In Spain at the moment. The spanish media are reporting the alleged 'I'm only human' comment by the driver; the speed of the train judged by line side footage; wondering if or why there is an automatic braking system and if it worked or not.

No mention of FB.

Nick Clegg did well: he's on holiday with his Spanish wife and expressed condolences on behalf of Britain in good Spanish.

 

[Zoidberg]

Their media reported the driver had previously made FB comments mentioning guarda civil and getting caught speeding with a train having the fine passed to Renfe...

Perhaps either unfortunate or signs of someone who is a serious risk.

If the Express is to be believed I take the context to be that of running parallel to the road and tripping a speed camera or similar intended to catch road traffic. What Pendelino wouldn't do that running parallel to the M1?

From http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...d-on-facebook-about-his-love-for-200kmh-speed

And when someone else said: “If the Civil Guard catch you, you'll be without [licence] points," Garzon Amo replied: “What fun it would be to go parallel with the Civil Guard and pass them by triggering the speed radar.

“Haha, what a fine for RENFE!"

 

[bnm]

Bignose Mac: Your list is nonsense in that they are are all incidents from many years back and railway technology and driver training has moved a long way from then. Each of those cases were all individual incidents and will have occurred to varying situations and have little or no connection with this latest incident in Spain.

All cabs have black box recorders today and they are downloaded after any serious incident or on 'spec' ocassions by train crew inspectors to get an average indication as to how drivers are carrying out their duties in general. A driver never knows when this will happen and must always drive as if there is every chance that it will.

My list was in response to a poster who said that British train drivers are professional and don't speed. I listed only those that involved passenger trains. However, if you want an example of a derailment due to excessive speed from recent times involving a British driver and modern technology then look no further than Bletchley, 3rd February 2012. Incidentally that driver normally drove passenger trains, but on this occasion was driving a light engine move.

It happens. Always has, always will. For a variety of reasons and circumstances. I pass no comment on any of the drivers involved in the list I posted. Nor have I passed comment on the driver involved in the incident in Spain.

I just hate know-all, know-nothings who get onto these boards simply because they have a computer and connected to the internet and spout from pure ignorance, added no doubt with their own prejudges.

You are free to draw whatever inference you like from my posts but I think the 'know-all, know-nothing' comment is a little unfair. I used the tools at my disposal to find some examples of incidents where the primary cause was (British) driver error due to excessive speed. How is that borne of 'pure ignorance'?

There are also various online reports about the drivers alleged obsession for speed and that he had bragged about flouting speed limits and the suggestion is that he pushed his luck just a bit too far on this occasion.

One Facebook post showing a train speedometer and joking that he might be ticketed by road traffic police does not equal an 'obsession' with speed.

 

[johnnychips]

One of the train drivers is now 'under police caution' in hospital, so perhaps the Spanish press can't publish rumours similar to our contempt laws. This is speculation from me.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

A technical question - if an emergency brake application was made at that speed on a Talgo set, bearing in mind the unique and unusual wheel arrangement, if the brakes at the front of the train acted slightly sooner than the brakes at the back would that cause the carriage at the front as seen on the video to tip up like that just before the whole train flew off the rails?

 

[starrymarkb]

Probably not. The coach that tipped is the generator car. It has a MTU 4000 engine (similar to a HST), I suspect the heavier weight then the electric power car or lightweight coaches caused it to tip first as the larger mass would have more inertia. It has a standard bogie at one end and a talgo articulation wheel set at the other. The leading passenger coach is hung off it rather then a conventional coupling hence it tipped the rest of the train over which hit the sharp end of that wall, tearing the sides off the coaches and ripping the rear generator apart - you can see the engine resting by the rear electric powercar

 

[the sniper]

A technical question - if an emergency brake application was made at that speed on a Talgo set, bearing in mind the unique and unusual wheel arrangement, if the brakes at the front of the train acted slightly sooner than the brakes at the back would that cause the carriage at the front as seen on the video to tip up like that just before the whole train flew off the rails?

I'm no expert, but I can't see that an emergency brake application (which can happen fairly regularly) would lead to a carriage tipping over. That would've been a basic but major design problem that would have been identified before now.

Almost any train with higher up weight coming into a corner like that at that speed is going to tip over.

 

[bnm]

A technical question - if an emergency brake application was made at that speed on a Talgo set, bearing in mind the unique and unusual wheel arrangement, if the brakes at the front of the train acted slightly sooner than the brakes at the back would that cause the carriage at the front as seen on the video to tip up like that just before the whole train flew off the rails?

I didn't see it as tipping up. More a case of a higher sided vehicle (the generator car) tipping over first. That it was the first to tip could be because of the 6.6 tonnes diesel engine contained within, giving it a higher centre of gravity.

You'll also notice that the leading power car doesn't appear to tip over due to centrifugal force. The rear of that power car is dragged out by the already derailed generator car behind. Only after it is dragged out and down into the cess does the leading power car tip over. That makes me wonder, even despite the apparent excessive speed, whether the train could have safely negotiated the curve if it had been an all electric Talgo 250 (RENFE Class 130).

 

[hs2critic]

It's a tragic accident. I just hope the death toll doesn't rise & the cause is established soon.

What's utterly repugnant is the anti Hs2 mob playing politics on Twitter, using the accident to scaremonger on rail safety and bash Hs2. Those of you on Twitter can see their actions at the #hs2 hashtag.

Agreed.

There's lots I don't like about HS2, but that's for other threads.

No transport system can be 100% safe. Railways didn't have a good start, but now they carry billions of people each year with relatively few serious incidents. Whilst we continue to accept daily carnage on our roads, each major air or rail accident is always fully investigated, and improvements are made.

This is a tragedy for those concerned, but lessons will be learned, and the rail network of the future will be safer because of it, not more dangerous.

 

[phil8715]

First of all I will convey my condolences to the 80 people who died in this horrific crash.

I think a terrorist attack has been pretty much ruled out. I think the driver was simply speeding, It does have the hallmarks of the Morpeth 1964 crash. Where the driver allowed his attention to wonder after he was handed a notice asking him to explain a delay in a previous shift. As with the Morpeth crash there was what we think was a second man in the cab, in the Morpeth crash the second man knew the driver was speeding but was reluctant intervene because the driver was the boss.

This Spanish train was running 5 minutes late and reports suggest he was trying to make up time, maybe they have a strict regime that doesn't allow for delays. Another theory was that he was in the tunnel and had no time slow down before hitting the curve.

 

[neonison]

Another theory was that he was in the tunnel and had no time slow down before hitting the curve.

The curve comes immediately after tens of miles of straight or very gently curving track where the new line joins the classic lines to reach Santiago station. Beyond Santiago the new line again takes up a straight route.

Much of the new line is in a multitude tunnels the final one on this approach ending no more than 100m from the start of this curve.

Given these circumstances, long straights, limited visibility, sudden change in direction one would have expected at least some warning and given available rail technology some degree of automation.

 

[Vicpaul]

Condolences to those have died and to thoughts are with the injured.

I have read the whole thread but am completely dumbfounded as to how this has happened. The pictures were graffic and the video shocking.

Surely one or more safety systems are at fault to allow the train to hurtle into a bend at such a speed.

 

[starrymarkb]

The curve comes immediately after tens of miles of straight or very gently curving track where the new line joins the classic lines to reach Santiago station. Beyond Santiago the new line again takes up a straight route.

Much of the new line is in a multitude tunnels the final one on this approach ending no more than 100m from the start of this curve.

Given these circumstances, long straights, limited visibility, sudden change in direction one would have expected at least some warning and given available rail technology some degree of automation.

Am I right in thinking that in the UK the TVM system steps the train's speed down ready to join the classic lines with the signalling boundary being at or near the actual junction. Looking at the Driver's Eye View posted earlier in the thread there seems to be an electrical changeover (25kV > 3kV?) a couple of tunnels before the curve. At this point conventional signals and speed signs appear. Is it possible that the trains hand over from ETCS to Classic Signalling while still at speed? It seems the train in the video started braking after the changeover...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm curious as to why there is a camera there, and how it got online?

There are cameras all along the line, if the line perimiter is breached then the signallers can see instantly if it's people, animals, debris etc. I'm assuming footage is recorded in the local signalbox and 'leaked' to the media without Renfe's permission in the same way that alleged radio transmission did

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Actually I imagine the footage was released officially to discount the terrorism rumours.