Train Crash near Santiago de Compostela, Spain.

[westcoaster]

On the bbc, the leading power car is upright, but in the video it's on it's side would/could it right it self.

 

[noddingdonkey]

I am surprised the driver spoke or even was given the opportunity to speak to the media following the accident, was there a reporter on the train?

The El Pais report states that this was a radio communication with the station. It's unclear whether Renfe released the transcript or if somebody overheard.

 

[notadriver]

I was thinking that same thing. AWS and TPWS don't have real time speed surveillance and control, which means that right now most trains in the UK are in the same situation as the Spanish trains under ASFA?

I need some explanation about the British ATP. What I came to know is that ATP monitories speed before a signal or speed restriction and if the driver fails to answer the warning or the train is going to fast to go past the signal at the target speed makes the train come to a full stop (?).

Hi mate
ATP continuously supervises the speed at all times so the speed limit can't be exceeded and so that in theory a train brakes in time to stop at a red signal or complies with a speed restriction. Only a few lines have it fitted as its cost could not be justified to fit over the entire network.

What we do have is TPWS which applies brakes if the train is overspeeding on the approach to a red signal or speed restriction. It does does not enforce the speed limit and quite frankly there is no need. British train drivers are professional and don't speed.

 

[jon0844]

British train drivers are professional and don't speed.

That's quite a sweeping statement! Even if true, it does sort of accuse drivers elsewhere of being unprofessional.

 

[starrymarkb]

On the bbc, the leading power car is upright, but in the video it's on it's side would/could it right it self.

Initial pictures last night did show it and the Generator Car on on their side, IIRC pictures this morning showed it had been righted, presumably to check for anyone trapped...

 

[dstrat]

If somebody wanted to take the Morpeth curve at above the 50mph speed limit (which incidentally in a previous report said trains would likely overturn above 75mph?) what systems are in place that would stop the driver from doing so?

(other than training etc.)

 

[notadriver]

If somebody wanted to take the Morpeth curve at above the 50mph speed limit (which incidentally in a previous report said trains would likely overturn above 75mph?) what systems are in place that would stop the driver from doing so?

(other than training etc.)

A TPWS overspeed loop.

 

[yorkie]

If somebody wanted to take the Morpeth curve at above the 50mph speed limit (which incidentally in a previous report said trains would likely overturn above 75mph?) what systems are in place that would stop the driver from doing so?

(other than training etc.)

Looks like the speed drop for the Morpeth curve is so severe that it is protected by TPWS OSS.

This thread is of interest, in particular:-

"So when you have a 30mph curve on a 125mph running line you think no TPWS is needed?! So if the driver cancels the AWS but fails to bring the trains speed down in time and runs the train into a field killing dozens that is acceptable?! "

In my 42 years of train driving I don't recall ever forgetting a permanent speed restriction, nor cancelling the AWS then forgetting a permanent speed restriction. These are part of your route knowledge and one of the first things you take note of when learning a new route. They stick in your mind, period just as a red signal does.

While it has happened it is not something that occurs on a regular basis but usually where something else has taken the driver's attention away from his driving at that moment. However, having said that having an aws warning for any speed restriction is a worthwhile addition to safety.

When I started on the railway many routes had no AWS of any kind and drivers didn't miss speed restrictions in potentially dangerous ways. Many steam locos didn't even have a speedometer and still drivers managed to bring their trains down to close to the stated speed. It was serious errors such as happened at Morpeth that encouraged the need for a physical pre-warning that the driver couldn't ignore. Likewise as speeds got higher pre-warnings became more necessary. But on the main train drivers do not forget permanent speed restrictions and it would be insulting to suggest that they do.

 

[YorkshireRider]

Galician court officials have been quoted as saying there was only one driver and he will be interviewed by police today, they refused to name the driver.

 

[Johnuk123]

British train drivers are professional and don't speed.

What a ridiculous statement, implying all the other train drivers in the world are unprofessional.

There are bad train drivers and there are good ones universally.

 

[68000]

It does does not enforce the speed limit and quite frankly there is no need. British train drivers are professional and don't speed.

Are they some sort of super human then?

 

[warriorofrovac]

It seems the media are bent on putting all the blame on the driver and his speeding. The Daily Fail is even now posting pictures of the driver they see responsible.

Maybe it is my utmost desire to believe that something else was to blame but I just don't believe the driver intentionally was going double the speed limit.

There is a lot quoted on what the driver apparently said, but it isn't really an admission of guilt, just that the driver was aware of the over-speed. He says deaths would weigh of his conscience but how many drivers would say after a one-under that it weighs on their conscience despite the being nothing they could have done to prevent it?

The media seem very quick of going all out with theories and making people responsible rather than wait for an investigation and RENFE to actually say something.

 

[Zoidberg]

That's quite a sweeping statement! Even if true, it does sort of accuse drivers elsewhere of being unprofessional.

What a ridiculous statement, implying all the other train drivers in the world are unprofessional.

There are bad train drivers and there are good ones universally.

Are they some sort of super human then?

I didn't think notadriver was being serious.

 

[Johnuk123]

I didn't think notadrivr was being serious.

Well he probably will say that now.

 

[bnm]

British train drivers are professional and don't speed.

Salisbury 1906
Shrewsbury 1907
Leighton Buzzard 1931
Bourne End, Herts 1945
Goswick 1947
Wormit 1955
Sutton Coldfield 1955
Lincoln 1962
Didcot 1967
Morpeth 1969
Eltham Well Hall 1972
Nuneaton 1975
Morpeth 1984
Morpeth 1994

 

[ainsworth74]

There's a video of the curve being taken at the usual speed which can be seen here (you'll need to switch to 480p as 360p appears not to work). It's quite the curve and shows just how slow it's supposed to be taken, especially compared to how fast the train in the accident approached it. It also shows why on that video of the train crash the first vehicle behind the locomotive appears to already be derailing as it's already on the curve by the time the train enters the video.

 

[Crossover]

What an awful incident. Thoughts with all those involved in any way.

Does anyone here know more clearly how the Talgo bogies work, IIRC they are rather "strange" in being just a single axle balanced between two coaches? Please correct me if I'm wrong...

I think they may be Jakobs bogies. Not particularly common in the UK, but seem to used elsewhere quite a lot. The Eurostar sets use them, but I can't think of anything else in the UK that does.

I was thinking that same thing. AWS and TPWS don't have real time speed surveillance and control, which means that right now most trains in the UK are in the same situation as the Spanish trains under ASFA?

AWS has nothing to do with speed at all - just an advance warning system of speed restrictions and signals ahead. The TPWS isn't real time, no. Overspeed will only be picked up by passing over the relevant sensors that a previous poster linked to.

 

[Railsigns]

TPWS is installed for speed restrictions across the network where the speed reduction is more than 30mph and have been since 2004

TPWS is provided for permanent speed restrictions if the approach speed is 60 m.p.h. or higher and the reduction in speed is one third or more (subject to other criteria being met). For example, this means that a change of permissible speed from 110 m.p.h. to 75 m.p.h. (a reduction of 35 m.p.h.) wouldn't qualify for TPWS fitment.

 

[68000]

Yes I do remember now it is 1/3 rather than 30mph, thanks

 

[richw]

BBC have provided a few updated stories

One of the drivers of a train which derailed in north-western Spain killing at least 80 passengers has been put under formal investigation, court officials have said.

Speed will be a factor in the inquiry, as a security camera captured the train crashing as it hurtled round a bend.

Dozens of people were hurt, 32 seriously, in the incident near Santiago de Compostela.

Spain will hold three days of mourning over the crash, one of its worst.

King Juan Carlos visited survivors and the families of victims at Santiago's University Hospital.

"All Spaniards are united at this moment," he said.

Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy was at the scene of the crash earlier in the day.

The Madrid to Ferrol train's data recording "black box" is now with the judge in charge of the investigation.

'No technical problems'

At least 130 people were taken to hospital after the crash, and 95 are still being treated, health officials say.

The 32 seriously injured include children.

People from several nationalities are among the wounded, including five Americans and one Briton. One American was among the dead.
Relatives of passengers have had an anxious wait for news of their loves ones

Spain train crash: What happened

A spokeswoman for the Galicia Supreme Court said the driver, who was slightly injured in the crash, was under investigation.

Named by Spanish media as Francisco Jose Garzon Amo, he is expected to face questioning by police on Thursday.

It was unclear whether anyone else was subject to investigation.

The train's carriages have been removed from the track by cranes and sent for analysis.

The president of railway firm Renfe, Julio Gomez Pomar, was quoted by El Mundo newspaper as saying the driver, who was aged 52, had 30 years of experience with the company and had been operating trains on the line for more than a year.

He said the train which derailed had no technical problems.

"The train had passed an inspection that same morning. Those trains are inspected every 7,500km... Its maintenance record was perfect," he told Spanish radio.

But Mr Garzon, who was trapped in the cab after the accident, is quoted as saying moments after the crash that the train had taken the curve at 190 km/h (118mph) despite a speed limit on that section of 80km/h, unidentified investigation sources have told Spanish media.

If this is the case, it remains to be seen whether a systems failure or driver error was the cause, correspondents say.

Spanish press reaction
The website of Spanish daily ABC opens with the line "Spain, in mourning" above a video of the mangled train.

National daily El Pais has headlined a quote attributed to the train driver: "I'm going at 190!".

Regional daily La Voz de Galicia features a close-up of a crying woman being comforted as she awaits news in front of a hospital where the injured have been taken.

Radio station SER is starting its hourly bulletins with a clip from the head of the regional government Alberto Nunez Feijoo saying that "On its national day, the people of Galicia are crying".

State broadcaster Radio Nacional de Espana is running rolling coverage of the derailment and the first stages of the investigation into its causes.

News and opinion website La Republica comments: "This horrible event that has entirely shaken Spain adds to all the personal and collective problems of the country's economic and social crisis."

Spain has invested huge amounts of money in its rail network and has a relatively good safety record, says the BBC's Tom Burridge in Madrid.

Mr Rajoy, who was born in Santiago de Compostela, expressed sadness and shock as he visited the scene.

"Today is a very difficult day. Today we have lived through a terrible, dramatic accident, which I fear will stay with us for a long time," he said.

'I saw corpses'

Renfe said the train came off the tracks about 3 or 4km (2-2.5 miles) from Santiago de Compostela station at 20:41 local time (18:41 GMT) on Wednesday.

It was on the express route between the capital, Madrid, and the port city of Ferrol on the Galician coast, with 218 passengers on board - in addition to an unknown number of staff and crew.

Firefighter Jaime Tizon, one of the first to reach the site of the crash, described the scene as "hell".

"I'm coming from hell, I couldn't tell you if the engine was on fire, or one of the carriages or what..." he told Spanish newspaper ABC after dragging the injured and bodies from the train.

One witness, Ricardo Montesco, described how the train carriages "piled on top of one another" after the train hit the curve.

"A lot of people were squashed on the bottom. We tried to squeeze out of the bottom of the wagons to get out and we realised the train was burning... I was in the second wagon and there was fire. I saw corpses," he told Spanish Cadena Ser radio station.

The derailment happened on the eve of Santiago de Compostela's main annual festival where thousands of Christian pilgrims were expected to flock to the city in honour of St James.

The city's tourism board said all festivities planned for Thursday have been cancelled.

 

[Starfish Prime]

Meanwhile, the BBC website "latest" ticker is quoting Mr Hague as talking about the accident "in Southern Spain". Is this a website error or has the Foreign Secretary really got his geography very wrong?

Mr Rajoy press office issued a condolences letter this morning. They cutcopied a previous letter for an earthquake and they forgot to replace the word "earthquake".

 

[starrymarkb]

I think they may be Jakobs bogies. Not particularly common in the UK, but seem to used elsewhere quite a lot. The Eurostar sets use them, but I can't think of anything else in the UK that does.

They are not, Talgo have their own system unique to them. Talgo stock has independent wheels mounted either side of a walkway. There is no Axle. Each coach (baring ends and bar cars) has a single pair of wheels which it shares with a neighbour.

 

[Crossover]

They are not, Talgo have their own system unique to them. Talgo stock has independent wheels mounted either side of a walkway. There is no Axle. Each coach (baring ends and bar cars) has a single pair of wheels which it shares with a neighbour.

Ah, thanks for sharing that starrymarkb

 

[gazzak]

Spanish media are saying the driver liked to brag about his speed on facebook and posted photos on there of the speed dial etc, no swear words are enough to describe this bloke if this is true.

 

[GB]

Spanish media are saying the driver liked to brag about his speed on facebook and posted photos on there of the speed dial etc, no swear words are enough to describe this bloke if this is true.

If the speed he supposedly bragged about was within the speed limit then I don't see much of an issue except perhaps whether it is professional or not.

 

[yorkie]

In an interview, Sim Harris of Rail News says, that "the ability of the driver to break the rules in this way is very limited indeed by the on-board systems of the train" - can anyone provide more information about these systems?

 

[bnm]

In an interview, Sim Harris of Rail News says, that "the ability of the driver to break the rules in this way is very limited indeed by the on-board systems of the train" - can anyone provide more information about these systems?

See my post #70 in this thread and the article I linked to.

 

[ReverendFozz]

Spanish media are saying the driver liked to brag about his speed on facebook and posted photos on there of the speed dial etc, no swear words are enough to describe this bloke if this is true.

If that is true, I hope he faces manslaughter charges for every death and face charges for every injury and get consecutive prison sentences for it...

What I want to know is how did El Pais get hold of the radio message of the driver seemingly admitting he was speeding

 

[WatcherZero]

Name escapes but im told the line had been partially converted to ERTMS for high speed, speed limits are displayed in cab but on this section of the line the driver is able to go faster than the limits.

Heard a story, dont know if true or not that after the crash the driver had radioed control to report it and said 'I think I may have been going too fast... Im only Human, Im only Human'

 

[Starfish Prime]

Spanish media are saying the driver liked to brag about his speed on facebook and posted photos on there of the speed dial etc, no swear words are enough to describe this bloke if this is true.

Don´t play media´s game. They like to have an official bad man. The driver just posted a pic on facebook of a speed dial showing 200. The corridor allowed 200 in most of the trip, there isn´t anything wrong in going at that speed with a Renfe 730. What is wrong is going at 190 on a 80 curve, but this is something under investigation.