Train delayed after buying a ticket on board

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by johntea, 12 Apr 2015.

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  1. johntea

    johntea Member

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    I bought a Castleford to Rotherham return on board the 14:36 Castleford - Sheffield service.

    Due to a points failure near Normanton we had to go back towards Castleford then back out to Normanton via an alternate route.

    This meant I would have missed the 15:42 Meadowhall to Rotherham connection making the journey pointless to me so I'm bailing at Wakefield Kirkgate.

    Can I get a refund for my ticket? I have a Z1-3 MetroCard so that covers the Castleford to Wakefield journey (if that is even relevant in this case), I just start my ticket from Castleford as it is slightly cheaper than starting it from Wakefield with a railcard discount.
     
  2. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Mmm... it would seem to me that you should be able to get a refund:
    You haven't used the ticket, I don't see why it makes a difference where you bought it.
     
  3. island

    island Established Member

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    In order to qualify for a refund under that condition you must promptly surrender your ticket to a booking office.
     
  4. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    26(b) then:
     
  5. cjmillsnun

    cjmillsnun Established Member

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    26(b) doesn't apply. As the OP bought the ticket on the train, then it is automatically used for the journey between Wakefield and Castleford, therefore the ticket is not completely unused.

    However if the delay would've been over an hour then delay repay would apply.
     
  6. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I disagree.

    The OP did not need to use the ticket at that point (but was required to purchase it at the earliest opportunity) - it remains wholly unused in my opinion.
     
  7. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    So you're of the opinion that a passenger can never get a full refund for a ticket bought on a train?
     
    Last edited: 12 Apr 2015
  8. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    It should still be read along with the bit between "26" and "(a)".
     
  9. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    The discussion on what should technically happen is most likely academic; if johntea writes an email explaining the situation and saying he is very cross at having to abandon a journey, a Northern day voucher will probably appear in the post!
     
  10. johntea

    johntea Member

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    Think I'll just write in as you say as it is an interesting situation!

    Even more so in the fact I cannot return my ticket to a manned ticket office as one isn't in operation at Castleford, Normanton or Kirkgate!
     
  11. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Please do, and let us know what happens.
     
  12. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    I can't agree with your opinion, unless the existing ticket/pass was shown when a ticket inspection was carried out.

    The question is not of which ticket they could have used, but which one they actually used.

    A ticket bought on board can be refunded, however, any refund would take account of any use. If the ticket is bought after the point at which it was needed to commence the journey (or that part of it), then it is already part, or completely, used.

    That passage also relates to parts (c) (d) and (e), all which allow for partial refunds.
     
  13. Shempz

    Shempz Member

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    This raises a good point. Is a ticket classed as being "used" the moment you start your journey, or on completion of your journey to the destination stated on the ticket? My opinion would be that if the TOC is unable to get you to your destination within reasonable time - and I would say the moment you are eligible for a Delay Repay and abandon your journey before your destination then it is not within a reasonable time, and you could class that ticket as unused - maybe I'm talking rubbish though!
     
  14. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    I would say it is at least partially used when you get to somewhere you want to be - this takes account of break of journey. In the OP's case, he couldn't get to where he wanted to be, and being in Wakefield was (a) of no use to him; and (b) covered by the Metrocard he had in his pocket.

    I, for one, would consider the Castleford-Rotherham ticket to be unused.
     
  15. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I'm with you on that one. If I purchased a ticket for a journey and abandoned it midway because of the railway's doing (i.e. a significant[1] delay made the journey pointless), I would treat it as if I hadn't taken the journey at all and be looking for RTVs (or equivalent) to the full value of the ticket, or similar, whether it was technically unused or not.

    [1] If a 5-minute delay made the journey pointless, I'd question my planning.
     
  16. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    I agree that the journey was aborted due to the delay, and therefore a full refund would be appropriate. The Metrocard has no beating on that at all.
     
  17. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    And no bearing either :)
     
  18. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    D'oh! :D
     
  19. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    I had a situation with Northern travelling from Manchester Airport to Southport. Got to Piccadilly and train failed and caused delays making the journey pointless. I was able to return to Manchester Airport and receive a full refund on my ticket. However, because the guard had stamped my ticket already they made me send it into customer relations for a refund. I refused the Day Voucher and they sent a cheque in the post. I ended up keeping the day voucher as they never asked for it back. I was annoyed the booking office insisted I sent the ticket in for refund. I've found with Northern you can stand your ground and get actual RTVs/cheque refunds (when due) if you refuse their day vouchers.
     
  20. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    In order that they may equally promptly tell you to bugger off, and submit it to Customer Relations (doubtless to be resolved with a voucher as a 'gesture of goodwill' rather than actually complying with the condition).
     
    Last edited: 22 Apr 2015
  21. island

    island Established Member

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    Quite an example of something that works in theory and not in practice.
     
  22. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    Island's comment is not strictly accurate. It is necessary to promptly surrender the ticket to a ticket office in order to obtain an immediate refund, but the entitlement to a full refund remains, as long as the ticket is surrendered within 28 days of the expiry of validity. Refunds are always paid to the card used for purchase, or by cash/cheque/BACS, and hardly ever in vouchers.
     
  23. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    Someone should tell Northern! I agree with the above, and was merely poiting out that immediate refunds are almost never given regardless of what you do. Why I couldn't possibly say, but I wonder if it stems from similar reasons as to why local staff put up signs saying 'TOC X Only tickets are non-refundable' when it's balderdash.
     
  24. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    I think we already had a thread on this? I recall someone saying that the NRCoC says you can have a refund if possible, and the TISes for whatever reason don't have a "refund ticket" button
     
  25. johntea

    johntea Member

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    I did send a photograph of the tickets off to Northern with an explanation, see you next month when they finally respond probably :lol:
     
  26. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    Yes we have, and it is whenever possible (source: NRCoC), but it's not a case of not having a "refund button", it's slightly different.

    A Northern office can immediately refund any non-ToD ticket issued at that office (or any non-ToD tickets issued by the Northern TVMs at that station), it can also refund, within a few minutes, a non-ToD ticket issued by any other Northern machine. A minor problem with Privatisation means that a ticket issued by another company (or ToDs issued on their behalf) would have to go back to the original issuer as it is not possible for Northern to deal with them directly. Other TOCs will probably have similar (though not necessarily the same) issues.
     
  27. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    That's not really a problem with privatisation as such, but the way it's been implemented. It would be quite possible for any office to issue a refund and for the rest to be an accounting problem within the rail industry - it is the rail industry which has chosen to make this the passenger's problem.
     
  28. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    And that is what is supposed to happen in disruption when a customer is entitled to a full and immediate refund.
     
  29. johntea

    johntea Member

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    UPDATE

    I got a very brief letter back from Northern with a RTV attached for a full refund.
     
  30. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Can't complain I suppose :)
     
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