Train dispatched as I was pressing the button to open the doors

[Class800]

Special shout-out to the SWR (and SWT before that!) dispatchers who blow their whistles while people are still disembarking the trains...!

I find that helpful actually, if the train has been dwelling over 10 seconds and not everyone is off yet a few whistles is a good encouragement. I've had times when people take ages to get off and no one whistles. New St seems to be a problem for that too. My 'favourite' example is at Crewe when the Guard had just announced us to all change to the train coming in on the neighbouring platform (we had been re-platformed for this reason) only for that train to be dispatched without ensuring people have actually got across!

 

[norbitonflyer]

I find that helpful actually, if the train has been dwelling over 10 seconds and not everyone is off yet a few whistles is a good encouragement. I've had times when people take ages to get off and no one whistles. New St seems to be a problem for that too. My 'favourite' example is at Crewe when the Guard had just announced us to all change to the train coming in on the neighbouring platform (we had been re-platformed for this reason) only for that train to be dispatched without ensuring people have actually got across!

Oh yes, that's a favourite game at Waterloo. "This train will now be running fast to X, not calling at U, V, and W"). The dispatcher chooses that moment to give the right away to the train on the adjacent platform that will call at U, V and W.

Do these people ever talk to each other? The mindset seems to be that anyone on the first train (ultimate destination Y) cannot possibly be interested in using the other train as it is going to Z. The intermediate stations common to the two are merely an operational inconvenience.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Can I ask which platforms? Just wondering if they are used on the higher numbered platforms due to curvature. Never had it on platforms 1-7 which is where I always am

One was on platform 2A on a 730 to Walsall, another was on platform 5 on a 390 to Crewe and the other was on platform 11B on a 170 to Cardiff.

 

[357]

He did arrive in time, but was walking up the train - as we are often asked to "use all available doors" and not all cram into the nearest carriage.

Seems the railways want to have their cake and eat it too, whilst the poor would-be passenger is damned if he does what he is asked, and damned if he doesn't.

However, it sounds like there was nobody using the other doors (otherwise the train would have not been dispatched).

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

Contrary to what some commentators might think the odd 30-second wait for a passenger can and does make a difference.
I recall looking into a Cross Country service years ago that was running around 75 minutes late. The biggest single delay it had incurred was 3 minutes, and the majority was 1 minute at this station and 1 minute at that one - most likely due to late/last minute passengers.
Unfortunately by the time it had made its way from Plymouth to Leeds it was well over an hour late and causing massive problems to many of the folk on it.
It's all well and good complaining about rail staff and train companies, but why should everyone on the train be made late by one or two people?

 

[JLX5]

One was on platform 2A on a 730 to Walsall, another was on platform 5 on a 390 to Crewe and the other was on platform 11B on a 170 to Cardiff.

I’m a driver that deals a lot with New Street, so I’m not necessarily a huge part of the dispatch from a platform sense. However I do believe from personal observation that dispatchers will use the whistle when the guard isn’t obviously available to start the dispatch procedure. I notice when the guard is making a PA or is otherwise occupied for some reason in their cab (middle or rear) the dispatcher will whistle to get their attention to start the dispatch.

I’m not saying this is the answer but could form part of it.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Whether or not there have been posters at New Street for months or minutes, it is very customer-hostile that every single major station appears to be setting its own rules. 40 seconds at New Street, 30 seconds there, a minute somewhere else, and so on (and that's before we get onto Kings Cross's new "trains removed from screens 3 minutes before departure"). How on earth is the occasional traveller meant to know this?

Set a national standard for large stations and stick to it.

 

[TrainzBK]

Whether or not there have been posters at New Street for months or minutes, it is very customer-hostile that every single major station appears to be setting its own rules. 40 seconds at New Street, 30 seconds there, a minute somewhere else, and so on (and that's before we get onto Kings Cross's new "trains removed from screens 3 minutes before departure"). How on earth is the occasional traveller meant to know this?

Set a national standard for large stations and stick to it.

Tends to be 30 seconds in the North, don’t really see any deviation.

 

[yorkie]

Tends to be 30 seconds in the North, don’t really see any deviation.

LNER can and do lock their doors more than 30 seconds before the advertised departure, regardless of what the policy is.

At stations further south, an extreme example is Euston where you can be denied boarding 2 minutes prior to departure and trains can depart a minute or more early.

Whether or not there have been posters at New Street for months or minutes, it is very customer-hostile that every single major station appears to be setting its own rules. 40 seconds at New Street, 30 seconds there, a minute somewhere else, and so on (and that's before we get onto Kings Cross's new "trains removed from screens 3 minutes before departure"). How on earth is the occasional traveller meant to know this?

Indeed; in sensible countries that really know how to run railways (Switzerland, Japan), the final boarding time is the advertised time. The idea that it depends on whether it's Euston, Birmingham New Street, or Sandwell & Dudley, is nonsensical.

However, there is no-one with any powers that actually cares about this sort of thing; there is no effective regulator, watchdog or ombudsman to resolve this.

The current practice of custom times that are unfavourable to customers is also robustly defended by some within the industry, and there really isn't anything to debate on the topic that hasn't been debated before.

If anyone has anything new to bring to the discussion, feel free to do so, but there is no point having the same debate again and again. Neither side is going to budge.

 

[357]

If anyone has anything new to bring to the discussion, feel free to do so, but there is no point having the same debate again and again. Neither side is going to budge.

Hopefully this is ok. If not I'm sure you'll take the appropriate action.

Question for you all: I used to drive DOO services, and at many stations and advertised departure would be eg 10:08, however the iPad in my cab would show my departure time as 10:08:30.

In this situation I would close my doors at 10:07:30 however some other drivers would insist this was incorrect and the doors should be closed at 10:08:00.

Whatever people's opinions about my colleagues and I being unable to run a railway - what are people's thoughts regarding the current 39 second rule?

 

[TrainzBK]

Hopefully this is ok. If not I'm sure you'll take the appropriate action.

Question for you all: I used to drive DOO services, and at many stations and advertised departure would be eg 10:08, however the iPad in my cab would show my departure time as 10:08:30.

In this situation I would close my doors at 10:07:30 however some other drivers would insist this was incorrect and the doors should be closed at 10:08:00.

Whatever people's opinions about my colleagues and I being unable to run a railway - what are people's thoughts regarding the current 39 second rule?

I’d say you’re correct there, on station display boards it would show 10:08, so say it was a dispatched station and the dispatcher is going off of the advertised time on the boards the first tip would be given at 10:07:30, if that makes sense.

 

[yorkie]

Hopefully this is ok. If not I'm sure you'll take the appropriate action.

Question for you all: I used to drive DOO services, and at many stations and advertised departure would be eg 10:08, however the iPad in my cab would show my departure time as 10:08:30.

In this situation I would close my doors at 10:07:30 however some other drivers would insist this was incorrect and the doors should be closed at 10:08:00.

Whatever people's opinions about my colleagues and I being unable to run a railway - what are people's thoughts regarding the current 39 second rule?

The most pragmatic course would be to close doors at 10:08:00 in my opinion.

But those who want early departures won't agree, so - as always with this topic - we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Russel]

Once again the railway is blaming the victim.

He did arrive in time, but was walking up the train - as we are often asked to "use all available doors" and not all cram into the nearest carriage.

Seems the railways want to have their cake and eat it too, whilst the poor would-be passenger is damned if he does what he is asked, and damned if he doesn't.

Why don't dispatchers and guards use a bit of common sense and warn passengers who are clearly intending to board the train that the doors are about to close? It can't be pleasant dealing with an angry passenger who has just missed their train because you let the doors shut in their face.

Trying to board the train as it was about to depart suggests he didn't arrive on time, or at least, didn't give himself enough time to get down onto the platform.

 

[yorkie]

Trying to board the train as it was about to depart suggests he didn't arrive on time, or at least, didn't give himself enough time to get down onto the platform.

I don't think you can infer that; the passenger could have been making a connection, and/or the train may have been dispatched early. The opening post even states that real time data sites show the train departed early.

 

[357]

I don't think you can infer that; the passenger could have been making a connection, and/or the train may have been dispatched early. The opening post even states that real time data sites show the train departed early.

I find myself that the realtime data is only really accurate to +/- 1 minute. From my understanding it works from track circuits/signalling blocks and each station has an offset that is applied to give what can only be called a "best guess". @Tom likely can elaborate further.

With any luck ETCS will make the data more accurate but that is a long way off for most of the country.

 

[fandroid]

If I knew that I had less than a minute before published departure time, I'd get on at the nearest door. You know that once that door button light goes out, you aren't going to get on!

 

[Bevan Price]

Contrary to what some commentators might think the odd 30-second wait for a passenger can and does make a difference.
I recall looking into a Cross Country service years ago that was running around 75 minutes late. The biggest single delay it had incurred was 3 minutes, and the majority was 1 minute at this station and 1 minute at that one - most likely due to late/last minute passengers.
Unfortunately by the time it had made its way from Plymouth to Leeds it was well over an hour late and causing massive problems to many of the folk on it.
It's all well and good complaining about rail staff and train companies, but why should everyone on the train be made late by one or two people?

That could equally well be due to a grossly overcrowded Voyager, which often causes extended station stops whilst alighting passengers try to push past others trying to board.

 

[saismee]

That could equally well be due to a grossly overcrowded Voyager, which often causes extended station stops whilst alighting passengers try to push past others trying to board.

And it seems that everyone has forgotten how to make space for people alighting and just force their way onto the train now. I think station staff should start shouting at people to let people off. It's especially bad during football on GA's FLIRTs as they only have one door per coach.

 

[Horizon22]

The most pragmatic course would be to close doors at 10:08:00 in my opinion.

But those who want early departures won't agree, so - as always with this topic - we will have to agree to disagree.

Who are these people? Lots of people want right time departures, as far as I can see.

 

[greatkingrat]

Who are these people? Lots of people want right time departures, as far as I can see.

No, people want right time arrivals.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

No, people want right time arrivals.

But generally if you don't depart on time it isn't possible to arrive on time, unless you're at the final stop and there's recovery time from the penultimate calling point!!
This is the problem with today's society... everyone expects the train to wait for them but also moans a bucketload if it's a few seconds late ...

 

[Russel]

I don't think you can infer that; the passenger could have been making a connection, and/or the train may have been dispatched early. The opening post even states that real time data sites show the train departed early.

New Street has a 12 minute connection time, which would suggest the inbound connection was late, resulting in a missed connection... so, delay repay would be applicable here, wouldn't it?

Regarding the train departing early, I struggle to believe a train departed more than a minute early from New Street.

 

[Horizon22]

No, people want right time arrivals.

This is not mutually exclusive. In fact is often one and the same.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Regarding the train departing early, I struggle to believe a train departed more than a minute early from New Street.

Indeed, the timing issue comes with passing the catch point for the tunnels. I've never seen doors closed more than 40 seconds early. I've probably been dispatched nearly 1000 times from there, vast majority on time

 

[norbitonflyer]

No, people want right time arrivals.

Yes, but they want to be on the train when it arrives right time. Newark Northgate used to be notorious for not holding connections, due to the silo mentaility of not considering the service as a whole but as individual trains with no connection (in any sense) with each other. Particularly frustrating at Northgate, where the only raison d'etre of the trains to Lincoln is to connect out of the ECML services, so not waiting for them is beyond stupid.

(Most people wanting to just travel from Newark to Lincoln, rather than as a part of a longer journey, would use the more frequent service from the more conveniently-located Castle station)

The Northgate problem has largely been eradicated by the direct Lincoln-London Azumas, augmented by a much improved service on the Joint Line allowing connection at Peterborough.

 

[bahnause]

Yes, but they want to be on the train when it arrives right time. Newark Northgate used to be notorious for not holding connections, due to the silo mentaility of not considering the service as a whole but as individual trains with no connection (in any sense) with each other. Particularly frustrating at Northgate, where the only raison d'etre of the trains to Lincoln is to connect out of the ECML services, so not waiting for them is beyond stupid.

The fact that the network is not considered as a system is also shown by these seemingly random additions to the departure times depending on the departure station. In a busy network, a train that is running earlier than planned is not much more helpful than one that is running late. Especially if you also take into account the energy consumption. When I look at the lengths to which other rail companies go just to ensure that the trains are "on the line” and not before or after and consistent with each other, I am amazed at such a “system” containing random factors.

Connections should actually be predictable, as the underlying decision bases are known. In our case, connections are usually predetermined by the system. "Autodispo" knows the maximum waiting times for every train / station and the connection times and indicates in the connection matrix which connections are waited for and which will be missed. However, manual intervention is possible, otherwise the control system takes care of this itself and controls the signals accordingly.

 

[Russel]

Indeed, the timing issue comes with passing the catch point for the tunnels. I've never seen doors closed more than 40 seconds early. I've probably been dispatched nearly 1000 times from there, vast majority on time

Yes, Ive just left New Street on the Cross City and noticed on RTT that it was showing as arrived just as the headlights were visible in the tunnel...

On a slightly different note, I've just timed how long it took to get from the departure boards on the concourse and down onto the platform (8a)... Just over 2 minutes but that includes using a ticket barrier that wouldn't read the QR code because the glass was filthy and having an 8 year old in tow....

 

[londonbridge]

And it seems that everyone has forgotten how to make space for people alighting and just force their way onto the train now. I think station staff should start shouting at people to let people off. It's especially bad during football on GA's FLIRTs as they only have one door per coach.

Saw this last night, train came in, doors opened, bloke just barged his way straight on before ANYONE had alighted.

 

[sheff1]

But generally if you don't depart on time it isn't possible to arrive on time, unless you're at the final stop and there's recovery time from the penultimate calling point!!

The other evening I was on a train which left Manchester Piccadilly six minutes late (train had started from Liverpool). We arrived at Sheffield one minute early (train continues to Nottingham).

Similar timings not at all unusual on that route.

 

[yorkie]

Contrary to what some commentators might think the odd 30-second wait for a passenger can and does make a difference.
I recall looking into a Cross Country service years ago that was running around 75 minutes late. The biggest single delay it had incurred was 3 minutes, and the majority was 1 minute at this station and 1 minute at that one - most likely due to late/last minute passengers.
Unfortunately by the time it had made its way from Plymouth to Leeds it was well over an hour late and causing massive problems to many of the folk on it.

I find that difficult to believe; XC services from Plymouth to Leeds have plenty of slack in the timetable. If they get away from stations a minute or two late, then unless any further delay occurs, they would generally have to wait for a platform, or wait time at the next station. I've known trains make up half an hour or so of delays on this corridor.

It's all well and good complaining about rail staff and train companies, but why should everyone on the train be made late by one or two people?

Feel free to tell the Swiss and Japanese that they are doing it all wrong and see how far you get

But generally if you don't depart on time it isn't possible to arrive on time, unless you're at the final stop and there's recovery time from the penultimate calling point!!

Not on the routes I regularly travel on.

This is the problem with today's society... everyone expects the train to wait for them but also moans a bucketload if it's a few seconds late ...

I've never known anyone moan, let alone "a bucketload" for a few seconds delay.

The opening poster wasn't even asking for the train to be delayed; they just didn't want it to depart early.

Who are these people? Lots of people want right time departures, as far as I can see.

Edit: If by "right time" departures, you mean that people want what our rail industry considers to be a "right time departure", then no, they do not want that. If you ask passengers what they want, no-one is going to say "right time departures"; they are going to want right time arrivals. No doubt there are some people who will get apprehensive if the train doesn't depart reasonably on time, but I've never known anyone complain about a train being available for boarding up to & including the advertised departure time, which is the point under discussion in this thread.

I've never heard of that! I believe it's a myth; the only people I've seen say this are railway staff, rather than non-staff passengers.

People also seem happy in places where the trains are available to board up to the advertised departure time; I've never ever known anyone complain when the doors are not locked prior to the advertised time and would be shocked if I ever did!