Train driving a dead end job?

[tygar2]

Hello all.

This is my first post and I have enjoyed reading this forum over the last few months. However I have a query and hope it wont be taken out of context and cause upset.

I am a commuter driver and enjoy my job. I really appreciate it especially with the current economic climate and the pay I get for what I do. Its a good job.

My concern is career prospects. I feel like I am stuck. By this I mean that I feel the job is a complete dead end with no chance of career progression unless you become a driver manager or instructor. Then, in most places, you will get that job only if your face fits!

There are also no laterally transferrable skills. I wish to improve myself and still have 35 years before I retire. Apart from quitting and starting completely afresh in something completely new the job does not allow opportunity even for part time courses due to the non static nature of shifts. Im doing a correspondence degree course in Buisness Management.Is there any point? Inhouse prospects are looking very bleak after graduation. Am I wrong?

By stuck I also mean that the nature of the job makes it extremely difficult to relocate or even just move house. By my understanding, in moving companies you are basically the same as a new person off the street due to the the very route specific nature of traction units and the route learning aspect. This makes opportunities few and far. An example would be a lorry driver, they have their class 1 licence and can work anywhere. Train drivers cannot.

These are my thoughts and I hope I dont come across as ungrateful or disrespectful to the job. Its a good job. I am just addressing the negatives and asking for advice in case there is an avenue I have missed. We have to acknowledge the good and the bad. This is just how I see the bad side.

Thanks in advance for your input. Hope you can point me in the right direction.

 

[gingerheid]

I've often wondered about this, in terms of considering union activity, and in terms of the psychology behind it.

Comparing a job like being a train driver to other jobs shows the immense value that can be placed on people's aspirations. If I want more money out my job then I go for promotion. My gripe if I want more money is therefore more likely to be about any unfairness in promotion processes than about what I earn at the moment.

If a train driver has an aspiration to earn more money in future... well... they've got to get the union to try and screw the money out their existing job!

Even a bus driver could harbour, somewhere deep down, an aspiration to run their own company.

I think the answer is that it does appear to an outsider to be a dead end job, but that the pay makes it a comparitively attractice dead end.

Of course, on a glass half full basis, it's not a dead end job at all. It's the job with the fastest opportunity to reach the top of your profession, which is what you've done!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I wanted to send you a PM, but I don't think I can

Because of something else I realise there might be reasons why you could be feeling down, but ultimately I wanted to express to you that the fact is that you have a wonderful job, better than the best millions of people could hope for, and that you should be very proud of it.

I'm sure that if there's anything that might make these feel like dark times, it will pass over in time!

 

[tygar2]

Even a bus driver could harbour, somewhere deep down, an aspiration to run their own company.

I think the answer is that it does appear to an outsider to be a dead end job, but that the pay makes it a comparitively attractice dead end.

Of course, on a glass half full basis, it's not a dead end job at all. It's the job with the fastest opportunity to reach the top of your profession, which is what you've done!

Hi. Im 29 and have reached the top of my proffession. Somehow I feel totally stuck. Maybe Im in the wrong job but they dont tell you these things when you join.

A bus driver can easily go driver somewhere else....for a train driver, thats extremely difficult, its like starting over completely.

A bus driver could run his own company one day....dont think the same applies to train drivers.


A bus driver could easily transfer to lorry driving or taxi driving or other forms of driving....no chance to that as a train driver.

As for further eduction...should I even bother continuing with it?

As for the shift patterns.....is there any other job as antisocial? I get one week earlies and one week lates with no two days the same. Impossible for childcare or other interests.

But then again, I may have this all wrong which is why I asked.

Any other opinions?

 

[gingerheid]

I think I can understand why someone might be feeling down about being a train driver, but is it the job that's responsible, or are there other reasons that you're on your way to sorting out, that will lift any dark clouds and make life seem better?

It's a good job that you should be proud of. It may not be perfect, but how many jobs are perfect? It would be quite easy to start again, and to end up with all the same anti-social hours problems but less money!

 

[90019]

I tried to send you a PM

You can't send him a PM before he makes 5 posts

 

[gingerheid]

Ah - go on tygar2 - make three more posts

 

[tygar2]

Ah - go on tygar2 - make three more posts

Thanks for the positive words.......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
.........maybe you are right about the dark times bit......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
......like you said, its a responsible job and I appreciate it.

You can PM me When I get to 5 posts!

Any opinions from drivers?

 

[gingerheid]

The site adds posts together unless there's something between them, so it only counts as three in total.

If you vote in the picture of the week competition and add a comment, and then reply to this when you're done then we're sorted

 

[GB]

Are most jobs not "dead end" to some degree?

 

[tygar2]

Are most jobs not "dead end" to some degree?

hello

I think you might have a point with that. However I have found train driving to be an almost specialised job i.e. you either drive trains on a certain line or you dont. Your skill is very difficult to transfer. There isnt much room for manouvre.....

Yes it comes with the territory, however, even within the your particular company moving around once in the driver grade is near impossible. I am yet to come across another industry with as restrictive a shift pattern. Most industries either have earlies,lates or whatever structured patterns they choose. Train driving shift patterns (where I work anyway) are totally unstructured which is hell on the social and self improvement front.

My opinion is that its considerably worse than the standard dead end job.

 

[gingerheid]

The conditions may be worse than many dead end jobs (certainly not all!). It may not provide the possibly even totally unrealistic aspirations for the future that some other jobs may provide (a factory worker on the minimum wage and with a rotatating shift pattern and varying hours per week could aspire to be the manager, whether or not he was ever going to be).

But the pay does reflect that. It takes a trainee doctor a long time to overtake a train driver in terms of pay!

 

[tygar2]

The conditions may be worse than many dead end jobs (certainly not all!). It may not provide the possibly even totally unrealistic aspirations for the future that some other jobs may provide (a factory worker on the minimum wage and with a rotatating shift pattern and varying hours per week could aspire to be the manager, whether or not he was ever going to be).

But the pay does reflect that. It takes a trainee doctor a long time to overtake a train driver in terms of pay!

So you are in agreement then? Once in the driving grade do not aspire for change or self improvement? At least the worker in the factory has a chance a being something more - supervisor, manager, operations manager, director etc. All he has to do is educate himself and do his job well. Can a driver aspire for such.

I mean, within the driving grade itself, these days how easy is it to move between companies as a driver? Especially with most companies having their own driver training schemes. Once you are in, you are stuck. Just my thinking.

Unlike the factory worker, train drivers are paid too much to leave so they are stuck for life with no options or anything to fall back on!

 

[Flyboy]

As for the shift patterns.....is there any other job as antisocial? I get one week earlies and one week lates with no two days the same. Impossible for childcare or other interests.

Yep......try any job within the aviation industry!

As someone who wants to change career INTO the rail industry I've obviously considered how I would move up the ladder if/when I ever found a way in, and instructing followed by driver management is obviously the best way of breaking into Company management, but of course your face has to fit as you said in your original post. I think I too would be very bored very quickly if regional commuter driving was all there was to look forward to.

You may have to simply bite the bullet and move to another Company.

 

[gingerheid]

That depends what I'm agreeing with!

I wouldn't agree with "give up hope".

I would agree with "be proud of having achieved so much that you have little left that you need to achieve"

 

[tygar2]

Yep......try any job within the aviation industry!

As someone who wants to change career INTO the rail industry I've obviously considered how I would move up the ladder if/when I ever found a way in, and instructing followed by driver management is obviously the best way of breaking into Company management, but of course your face has to fit as you said in your original post. I think I too would be very bored very quickly if regional commuter driving was all there was to look forward to.

You may have to simply bite the bullet and move to another Company.

Hi Flyboy

Ive read a few of your posts and have always wondered why in the world you would leave aviation for rail. Hope my post has helped coz that is the reality I see from the inside.

Like I said,Im doing a correspondence management degree...will it ever become relevent? Hope it gives me an edge coz there are tonnes of experienced drivers and instructors at my depot willing to do anything to avoid getting on a train. The amount of brown-nosing.....its sad to see.

Also the basic driver manager job is a paper pushing exercise but Id be more than thrilled to do it if it opened up other avenues within rail. Chances are extremely slim from where I sit. Someone please tell me Im wrong!

Truth is...you will get bored very quickly on a commuter route. Im on one and I am very bored most of the time. I feel underutilised and unempowered and stuck which is why I made this thred for advice in case Im missing something. Id say for 99% of commuter drivers drivers the boring commuter route is all they have to look forward to. Im 29, already on top rate....what next? Its kind of disconcerting feeling you got nowhere to go career wise and 36 years to play with!

Thats the way it seems to be, like another driver said in another post.....its worse than watching paint dry......on commuter routes anyway......underground must have it a million times worse......no wonder there are never any vacancies at virgin!

Back to aviation with you?

 

[the sniper]

Tygar2, have you ever looked at/been interested in becoming a Special Constable with the British Transport Police? It doesn't pay, but it's an interesting role which can supplement your full time career which, I imagine, can become rather tedious after a while. I've heard that the BTP often encourage railway employees to join and some TOC's welcome their staff to do so.

It's just an idea. I'm not a train driver but hope to be someday, it's my intention to try and become a Special Constable and a train driver, that way you get the best of both worlds.

Might be worth looking into it if your looking for a bit of variety on the railways.

 

[djw1981]

Hi. Im 29 and have reached the top of my proffession. Somehow I feel totally stuck. Maybe Im in the wrong job but they dont tell you these things when you join.

A bus driver can easily go driver somewhere else....for a train driver, thats extremely difficult, its like starting over completely.

A bus driver could run his own company one day....dont think the same applies to train drivers.


A bus driver could easily transfer to lorry driving or taxi driving or other forms of driving....no chance to that as a train driver.

As for further eduction...should I even bother continuing with it?

As for the shift patterns.....is there any other job as antisocial? I get one week earlies and one week lates with no two days the same. Impossible for childcare or other interests.

But then again, I may have this all wrong which is why I asked.

Any other opinions?

You have the option to move to work different line and traction and areas of the country; transfer to FOC.

 

[The 158 Man]

Personally I wouldn't really want to be driving commuter/constanty stopping and starting services all the time.

I'm more interested in driving semi-fast/express services.

Then again, I'd consider myself very fortunate to work on the railway as a driver in any position.

Beggars can't be choosers.....

 

[GB]

FOCs are good if your after a bit of variety or a bit more of a challenge. Not really any good though if you have a family or you want to know what your doing the next week.

 

[Flyboy]

Hi Flyboy

Ive read a few of your posts and have always wondered why in the world you would leave aviation for rail. Hope my post has helped coz that is the reality I see from the inside.

I understand your surprise, but as you point out the view from the inside is often very different from the normal perception. When I first joined aviation in the 90s it was a fantastic job, but then along came Michael O'Leary () and the European aviation industry began a very gentle slide into oblivion. I could rant on for ages but I'll simply bite my lip and say that airline flying is not a good place to be. A lot of airlines simply see what O'Leary gets away with in his poor treatment of both staff and passengers, and they follow suit. As a brief example of how bad aviation is becoming from an employee's point of view, can you think of any other industry where you have to pay at every stage of the recruitment process? from the moment you submit your CV and then again at every stage thereafter in increasing amounts.

They get away with it because, unlike other industries where Union influence is relatively strong, in aviation it's almost non-existent. Additionally the workforce is extremely fragmented in terms of locations, (bases) and to make it worse pilots generally think only about numero uno and have little interest in acting as group.

Things are not set to improve either as in 2012 new European laws come into force which will extend pilots' already exhausting working hours. Of course O'Leary's and Murdoch's stock media answer is to say that pilots only work 900 hours per year, and the public believe them. 900 hours is a 'flying' limit, i.e. from off-chocks to on-chocks, and doesn't include any time spent on duty before or after flying. In the past I've done a 22 hour duty which included only 4 hours of flying so everything was totally legal, and that's disgraceful.

On the pay side of things you may have seen media reports recently about some USA airlines who pay their F/Os $10,000 - $15,000 per year. In the UK things are a little better and there are some great flying jobs out there, but in a shrinking industry these are becoming like hen's teeth.

 

[ukrob]

With respect you sound very depressed about this and with 35 years left until you retire you need to make a change sooner rather than later.

Why won't you apply to another TOC (or FOC) when a vacancy arises? I admit it is not common for driver vacancies to be externally advertised but it does happen. Do you live in an area where there are no other TOCs available and you aren't willing to move?

 

[tygar2]

Tygar2, have you ever looked at/been interested in becoming a Special Constable with the British Transport Police? It doesn't pay, but it's an interesting role which can supplement your full time career which, I imagine, can become rather tedious after a while. I've heard that the BTP often encourage railway employees to join and some TOC's welcome their staff to do so.

It's just an idea. I'm not a train driver but hope to be someday, it's my intention to try and become a Special Constable and a train driver, that way you get the best of both worlds.

Might be worth looking into it if your looking for a bit of variety on the railways.

Interesting point. I will look into it. hmmm.......my point was the career advancement and options if you want to branch out or are ambitious. It seems this is a less discussed area i.e people mostly hear of the pros and not the cons. If you are ambitious you are basically stuck in job, location and anti social way of life.. You cannot work hard to get out of it coz the options are very limited.

That's just my point of view. Was hoping someone here would point me to options I hadnt realised were there but at the moment it seems thats this is the way things are.......

 

[djw1981]

Interesting point. I will look into it. hmmm.......my point was the career advancement and options if you want to branch out or are ambitious. It seems this is a less discussed area i.e people mostly hear of the pros and not the cons. If you are ambitious you are basically stuck in job, location and anti social way of life.. You cannot work hard to get out of it coz the options are very limited.

That's just my point of view. Was hoping someone here would point me to options I hadnt realised were there but at the moment it seems thats this is the way things are.......

I was under the impression that the link structure offered some of the career progression, with better working hours, 'nicer' diagrams etc.

 

[tygar2]

With respect you sound very depressed about this and with 35 years left until you retire you need to make a change sooner rather than later.

Why won't you apply to another TOC (or FOC) when a vacancy arises? I admit it is not common for driver vacancies to be externally advertised but it does happen. Do you live in an area where there are no other TOCs available and you aren't willing to move?

Yeah, maybe I am down about this. Maybe Im just ambitious. It the lack of opportunity and inflexibility of the job that gets to me....maybe I've just reached the top of my tree.

Seems if you want to be a train driver, just dont expect anything more. ever.

I am single and am able to move anywhere, anytime. I would like to make a change but opportunities are few and far between.....and that's just the driving grade. If you want more.....

Moving TOCs might help but arent the culture and limitations fundermentally the same?

All I was trying to get across are the true limitations of the job and the lack of opportunity for progression even laterally.

I think this area of the job is less highlighted and there may be more people like me who end up a bit dissapointed with the reality.

 

[the sniper]

All I was trying to get across are the true limitations of the job and the lack of opportunity for progression even laterally.

I think this area of the job is less highlighted and there may be more people like me who end up a bit dissapointed with the reality.

Were you under the impression when you got into the job that there would be more opportunists for progression then? Also, just out of curiosity, what drew you to the job in the first place? Are/were you a rail enthusiast before you got the job? Had you worked in the lower ranks before becoming a train driver or did you come in straight off the street?

I think switching to a FOC might be your best bet if your looking to break out of the monotony of your current job as I don't see anything else you can step up to, as really your at the pinnacle if you don't have the option of doing express' with your TOC.

 

[driver9000]

If you've decided driving isnt for you have you checked out your TOCs internal vacancies list and other TOC websites for other avenues?

 

[tygar2]

I was under the impression that the link structure offered some of the career progression, with better working hours, 'nicer' diagrams etc.

Where I work everyone does the same. From newly qualified to guys with over 20 years experience. There aint one where I work.

Anyone with information on how this link structure works and which companies do it?

 

[SWT Driver]

The larger depots tend to do it rather than the smaller ones.

It can also mean a different route/traction knowledge too, the differences can be minor, but when it comes to covering the work then there can be problems.

 

[tygar2]

If you've decided driving isnt for you have you checked out your TOCs internal vacancies list and other TOC websites for other avenues?

I have and didnt find anything which is why I asked. You have anything in mind? Its progression Im after. Apart from instructing and driver managing it seems there are no other routes for drivers. These roles seem reserved for cronies and people with large amounts of experience. Experience does not mean ability. A motivated and dedicated individual with less experience may actually better driver manage and operations manage and manage in other industries but is the a route available?

With so few opportunities it disheartening that any academically minded or motivated person is basically stuck.

I reckon the way driver's have been stripped of all decision making ability and the way their jobs are now so insecure reduces job satisfaction which fuels my desire to find ways to progess and also have a fall back.

 

[Flyboy]

tygar2 - you could say the very same thing about my job in that once you've reached Captain there's really nowhere left to go unless into a training or middle management role, and this is true to a certain extent, however, the way pilots usually re-energise their passion for the job is simply to go to another Operator that has a different type of aircraft or route structure. In your case, if you delve deep and remember what drew you to driving in the first place, and then realise you still have that passion, then I think the answer is simple - switch Companies. You have a whole range of options - ECML, WCML, Eurostar etc. If however you discover that you're bored of driving full stop, then you're still young enough to change careers altogether, and don't be scared of doing that.

A lot depends on what you class as 'progression', whether you're talking in terms of driving something which is faster and stops less frequently, or if you mean being your Company's CEO.

Most importantly, don't be worried that you're feeling like you do as it's what drives motivated people onward and upward. It may well be the case that you've yet to find your niche.

PS - Just thought I'd add a little more in answer to your post above as we were typing simultaneously - if what you're saying about instructor and management roles being reserved for cronies is true then that's the fault of the Company, and from what I've heard the railway industry isn't very good at accepting change so you might fight a losing battle trying to change that. Experience certainly doesn't mean ability as you say and the solution would be to move to another Company that isn't run by a Boy's club style of senior management.