Train Driving vs Bus Driving

[ZackCulross]

I must say this is stupid.
I am a bus driver currently and have been a tram driver in the past (not exactly the same as railway, but same sort of understanding etc)
and bus driving is much easier in terms off training and stuff, trams where quite complicated to start with.

 

[scotraildriver]

May I suggest you Google "railway rule book" (RSSB)and have a read at what a trainee train driver has to learn and be tested on before they get anywhere near a train. This is what the first 3 months are spent doing in the classroom. Nothing to do with this debate but will give an idea of the depth of training required, compared to bus driving and Yes, I've done both.

https://www.rssb.co.uk › rgs › rulebooks

 

[Dieseldriver]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #30 were originally in this thread.

As I see it, all the problems are down to not enough drivers being type/ route trained. Which leads me to what may seem a stupid question... but why do train drivers need to have so much training? As a bus driver, if a new vehicle type comes into my depot, then I will, IF I am lucky, be given a small manual showing where all the controls are... if I'm REALLY lucky I might be given a 15 min "spin" to find out how the new type handles. As to route changes... well once or twice along the line oos followed if lucky with a run in service with a pilot will be deemed sufficient... in fact if I were to ask for much more training than that I would probably be deemed as incompetent as a driver and would be "asked to leave".

Now.. without wishing to open old arguments... there isn't much difference between propelling a train down a "track" stopping at stops and signals or doing the same with a bus... yes a road can be considered the "track" of a bus... and a train driver doesn't have to worry about complete idiots sharing their track...

Is there a LEGAL requirement for train drivers to have so much training? or is it a product of years of TOC's caving into unreasonable union demands?

You are asking a question while at the same time making it pretty clear you aren't

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #30 were originally in this thread.

As I see it, all the problems are down to not enough drivers being type/ route trained. Which leads me to what may seem a stupid question... but why do train drivers need to have so much training? As a bus driver, if a new vehicle type comes into my depot, then I will, IF I am lucky, be given a small manual showing where all the controls are... if I'm REALLY lucky I might be given a 15 min "spin" to find out how the new type handles. As to route changes... well once or twice along the line oos followed if lucky with a run in service with a pilot will be deemed sufficient... in fact if I were to ask for much more training than that I would probably be deemed as incompetent as a driver and would be "asked to leave".

Now.. without wishing to open old arguments... there isn't much difference between propelling a train down a "track" stopping at stops and signals or doing the same with a bus... yes a road can be considered the "track" of a bus... and a train driver doesn't have to worry about complete idiots sharing their track...

Is there a LEGAL requirement for train drivers to have so much training? or is it a product of years of TOC's caving into unreasonable union demands?

Do you know what, I have tried to compose a reasonable and informative message back to this but I'm finding it incredibly difficult with what you've given me to work with.
You've written a lot of massively incorrect statements about a job role that you clearly have zero knowledge about (apart from what you have read in the equally as uninformed media). The fact that you honestly believe that 'there isn't much difference' between bus driving and train driving is laughable (and that isn't a dig at bus drivers or my thinking that Train Driving is elite in any way).
You aren't looking to learn anything from this thread as apart from anything else, you're clearly not going to digest the information given by professional Train Drivers as you have already jumped to your own wild and majorly incorrect conclusions.

 

[Johncleesefan]

Not to mention new traction may require new methods of working, ie driver door operation on some units but not others, depending on class then different speeds on the same route. There is a lot more to learning a new traction then “where is the go fast lever”

And as for routes: each route has a minimum number of hours needed before you can sign for it and a hefty exam to go alongside it. Drivers need to know the route inside out and every small detail as every day is not the same like you stated. Try braking from 90 in leaf fall at the “normal” location and your wsp light will be going mental, wheels locking up and shooting straight through a station or signal to a potential catastrophic disaster.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

You are asking a question while at the same time making it pretty clear you aren't

Do you know what, I have tried to compose a reasonable and informative message back to this but I'm finding it incredibly difficult with what you've given me to work with.
You've written a lot of massively incorrect statements about a job role that you clearly have zero knowledge about (apart from what you have read in the equally as uninformed media). The fact that you honestly believe that 'there isn't much difference' between bus driving and train driving is laughable (and that isn't a dig at bus drivers or my thinking that Train Driving is elite in any way).
You aren't looking to learn anything from this thread as apart from anything else, you're clearly not going to digest the information given by professional Train Drivers as you have already jumped to your own wild and majorly incorrect conclusions.

I suggest you read all my replies to the answers I was given... you will see that I have been thankful for all the replies I received that went beyond the "how dare you denigrate my job" response. I admit that I don't know much about train driving...just as a car driver has little comprehension of the difference between driving a car and driving a bus/ lorry. I sought a genuine answer to a genuine question... on the Thameslink threads there has been so much talk about lack of route learning/ type training being at the root of the problems it lead me to wonder whether the amount of training was dictated by law or just union agreement... it seemed a fair question to ask, but judging by the answers given by some of your colleagues I can see why the media, and to an extent, the public have such a low opinion of train drivers' altruism

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Not to mention new traction may require new methods of working, ie driver door operation on some units but not others, depending on class then different speeds on the same route. There is a lot more to learning a new traction then “where is the go fast lever”

And as for routes: each route has a minimum number of hours needed before you can sign for it and a hefty exam to go alongside it. Drivers need to know the route inside out and every small detail as every day is not the same like you stated. Try braking from 90 in leaf fall at the “normal” location and your wsp light will be going mental, wheels locking up and shooting straight through a station or signal to a potential catastrophic disaster.

yes and similarly you're travelling at 40mph on your bus on a sunny dry day.... the next time you're on the route there's ice on the road... do you think the bus will react the same way?

do you think that buses have all their controls in the same place? behave in exactly the same way? do you think that an RM will behave like a brand new Merc coach?

yet any call from a bus driver for training will be met by a management reply "you're a professional driver... get on with it"

to give an example, I worked for a company that had a number of vehicles from a certain manufacturer that have retarders that don't work properly if the engine is running hot... unfortunately this type of bus has a habit of running hot... now this is the only type of vehicle I have driven where this happens.... can you imagine my reaction when I crested the top of the hill and tried to brake to hold the buses speed as I came down the other side of the hill. When it happened the first time and I complained the only reply I got to this defect was "well now you know how the bus performs there's no excuse for you having an accident"!

 

[Dieseldriver]

I suggest you read all my replies to the answers I was given... you will see that I have been thankful for all the replies I received that went beyond the "how dare you denigrate my job" response. I admit that I don't know much about train driving...just as a car driver has little comprehension of the difference between driving a car and driving a bus/ lorry. I sought a genuine answer to a genuine question... on the Thameslink threads there has been so much talk about lack of route learning/ type training being at the root of the problems it lead me to wonder whether the amount of training was dictated by law or just union agreement... it seemed a fair question to ask, but judging by the answers given by some of your colleagues I can see why the media, and to an extent, the public have such a low opinion of train drivers' altruism

If you are going to start the subject with a post that is blatantly an attempt to denigrate someone's job, don't then be surprised when the people who do that job then take exception to you initially writing your post in that way. I would also argue that car drivers will have much more of an understanding of Bus Driving than a Bus Driver would have of a Train Drivers role. Apart from anything else, when I drive my hatchback I drive on the same infrastructure as you, deal with the same road users as you and have to abide by the same highway code. In your position as a Bus Driver, there is nothing about your job that would give you understanding of what Train Driving involves (if you want to take that as me being elitist then be my guest but it isn't what I'm getting at).

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

If you are going to start the subject with a post that is blatantly an attempt to denigrate someone's job, don't then be surprised when the people who do that job then take exception to you initially writing your post in that way. I would also argue that car drivers will have much more of an understanding of Bus Driving than a Bus Driver would have of a Train Drivers role. Apart from anything else, when I drive my hatchback I drive on the same infrastructure as you, deal with the same road users as you and have to abide by the same highway code. In your position as a Bus Driver, there is nothing about your job that would give you understanding of what Train Driving involves (if you want to take that as me being elitist then be my guest but it isn't what I'm getting at).

can you not see though, that from a lay persons point of view... what's so hard about driving a train... you don't have to steer the damn thing... you don't have to deal with the idiot druggies stepping out into your track every 5 mins, 90 yr old Mrs Jones blundering out 20 yds in front of you when you're going at the legal maximum... or come to that Tristan in his Audi screaming round and cutting you up as you leave the station... to a layman all a train driver does is sit in the cab and accelerate/ brake according to the stop plan/ signals. I emphasise I know there is more to driving a train than that.

But a plea to all train drivers out there... instead of saying "your job is nothing like mine" or "you don't know what you're talking about" educate people

 

[Dieseldriver]

can you not see though, that from a lay persons point of view... what's so hard about driving a train... you don't have to steer the damn thing... you don't have to deal with the idiot druggies stepping out into your track every 5 mins, 90 yr old Mrs Jones blundering out 20 yds in front of you when you're going at the legal maximum... or come to that Tristan in his Audi screaming round and cutting you up as you leave the station... to a layman all a train driver does is sit in the cab and accelerate/ brake according to the stop plan/ signals. I emphasise I know there is more to driving a train than that.

But a plea to all train drivers out there... instead of saying "your job is nothing like mine" or "you don't know what you're talking about" educate people

Yes to the uneducated layman Train Driving is regularly considered to be an easy job. That is because the layman literally has zero knowledge on what it involves. It's irrelevant, I know what my job is, I know the skills and knowledge needed and I know the responsibility I carry with it.
You are aware that all of those scenarios you've listed happen to me on a regular basis when I drive my car on the public roads?
If you really want to educate yourself a little bit more on what Train Driving is all about then visit www.traindriver.org.uk as a starter, it gives a good overall appreciation of the role.

 

[scotraildriver]

can you not see though, that from a lay persons point of view... what's so hard about driving a train... you don't have to steer the damn thing... you don't have to deal with the idiot druggies stepping out into your track every 5 mins, 90 yr old Mrs Jones blundering out 20 yds in front of you when you're going at the legal maximum... or come to that Tristan in his Audi screaming round and cutting you up as you leave the station... to a layman all a train driver does is sit in the cab and accelerate/ brake according to the stop plan/ signals. I emphasise I know there is more to driving a train than that.

But a plea to all train drivers out there... instead of saying "your job is nothing like mine" or "you don't know what you're talking about" educate people

There is no point trying to educate people. It's too in depth and people just don't get it. Read the rule book like I suggested above and you will understand what the role involves.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Yes to the uneducated layman Train Driving is regularly considered to be an easy job. That is because the layman literally has zero knowledge on what it involves. It's irrelevant, I know what my job is, I know the skills and knowledge needed and I know the responsibility I carry with it.
You are aware that all of those scenarios you've listed happen to me on a regular basis when I drive my car on the public roads?
If you really want to educate yourself a little bit more on what Train Driving is all about then visit www.traindriver.org.uk as a starter, it gives a good overall appreciation of the role.

thanks for the link... I'll certainly look it up.. though I would point out that having someone step out 20 yds in front of you driving your car is completely different to it happening to a fully loaded bus with upwards of 100 pax... many of whom are standing.

FWIW I believe that, in desperation caused by low wages/ job esteem, the bar of competence/ training for bus driving is set way too low....

perhaps that's why my original post came across as a bit negative... jealousy of the recognition train drivers get for their skill

 

[Bromley boy]

FWIW I believe that, in desperation caused by low wages/ job esteem, the bar of competence/ training for bus driving is set way too low....

I don’t doubt that’s true.

perhaps that's why my original post came across as a bit negative... jealousy of the recognition train drivers get for their skill

I think where you have gone wrong is that you’ve seemed to be overly critical of the skills and responsibilities involved in the job without ever having done it yourself. There are very few relevant comparisons that can be drawn between train driving and bus driving/controlling.

If you fancy doing it yourself why not apply to your local TOC?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I think where you have gone wrong is that you’ve seemed to be overly critical of the skills and responsibilities involved in the job without ever having done it yourself. There are very few relevant comparisons that can be drawn between train driving and bus driving/controlling.

If you fancy doing it yourself why not apply to your local TOC?

I'm truly sorry if I came across as over critical of the skill set of train drivers... that wasn't my objective... my question originally was whether the amount of training was a legal requirement or union agreement. As I've already said, as a bus driver once I've passed my test I'm considered to be a professional driver and should be able to take anything thrown at me. Much has been said here about how different an 800 is to a 365 or a 55; but you could say that driving an RM is totally different from driving a brand new enviro 200.. yet I'm not entitled to days or weeks of type training before being allowed to drive that vehicle.
As to applying to be a train driver... there's a good reason why I won't... despite my complaints about lack of recognition/ training etc... all I ever wanted to do is be a bus driver.... much as probably I could never convince you to ditch train driving for buses

 

[BRblue]

I'm truly sorry if I came across as over critical of the skill set of train drivers... that wasn't my objective... my question originally was whether the amount of training was a legal requirement or union agreement. As I've already said, as a bus driver once I've passed my test I'm considered to be a professional driver and should be able to take anything thrown at me. Much has been said here about how different an 800 is to a 365 or a 55; but you could say that driving an RM is totally different from driving a brand new enviro 200.. yet I'm not entitled to days or weeks of type training before being allowed to drive that vehicle.
As to applying to be a train driver... there's a good reason why I won't... despite my complaints about lack of recognition/ training etc... all I ever wanted to do is be a bus driver.... much as probably I could never convince you to ditch train driving for buses

Maybe I can approach this from a different angle TL...
I'm a signaller, I know a few train drivers, I interact with them on a daily basis and I hope I have a reasonable understanding of the complexities of driving a train.
I previously spent 20 years driving articulated trucks across the length and breadth of Britain and a bit of Europe too.
Driving a commercial vehicle is not as easy as a lot of people think, which funnily enough is exactly what a lot of train drivers are saying to you.
You cannot compare a commercial vehicle, (Bus/Coach/Lorry) with a train, they are totally different beasts... could I drive a train? I doubt it and I doubt there are many train drivers out there that could handle a 44 tonne artic.
To me it matters not whether you drive a bus, truck or train for your living, you are all professional drivers.
FWIW... I think commercial vehicle drivers are very underpaid for what they do... that was part of the reason I left the industry. And the lack of rules and legislation for commercial vehicles compared to the railway leaves it wide open for unscrupulous operators to take advantage... which they do on a regular basis.

 

[Johncleesefan]

yes and similarly you're travelling at 40mph on your bus on a sunny dry day.... the next time you're on the route there's ice on the road... do you think the bus will react the same way?

do you think that buses have all their controls in the same place? behave in exactly the same way? do you think that an RM will behave like a brand new Merc coach?

yet any call from a bus driver for training will be met by a management reply "you're a professional driver... get on with it"

to give an example, I worked for a company that had a number of vehicles from a certain manufacturer that have retarders that don't work properly if the engine is running hot... unfortunately this type of bus has a habit of running hot... now this is the only type of vehicle I have driven where this happens.... can you imagine my reaction when I crested the top of the hill and tried to brake to hold the buses speed as I came down the other side of the hill. When it happened the first time and I complained the only reply I got to this defect was "well now you know how the bus performs there's no excuse for you having an accident"!

I get your point. I was a bus driver before becoming a train driver. I drove solos, enviro 200 300 and 400 double deck.

When I first went to double deck I got a pilot for the route only once. That was to do the route and to do the new bus type.

Was it sufficient? Probably not.

Learning a new traction on the trains I was given 2 classroom days followed by an exam and then 3 days handling with an instructor on routes I already signed so it was purely for the traction handling.

Was it sufficient? Yes I’d say so.

Train driving is a better looked after job due to our unions and management.
Maybe that answers your initial question and perhaps it is unions who negotiate the handling time.


If I wasn’t happy with my traction training and they still tried to make my drive then I can confidently exercise the refusal to work policy on grounds of poor training.

I doubt a bus driver would get the same reaction from managers if they said they refuse due to poor training so I get it.

Unfortunately bus drivers just don’t have the same job conditions or security

 

[Dieseldriver]

thanks for the link... I'll certainly look it up.. though I would point out that having someone step out 20 yds in front of you driving your car is completely different to it happening to a fully loaded bus with upwards of 100 pax... many of whom are standing.

FWIW I believe that, in desperation caused by low wages/ job esteem, the bar of competence/ training for bus driving is set way too low....

perhaps that's why my original post came across as a bit negative... jealousy of the recognition train drivers get for their skill

I get your point. I was a bus driver before becoming a train driver. I drove solos, enviro 200 300 and 400 double deck.

When I first went to double deck I got a pilot for the route only once. That was to do the route and to do the new bus type.

Was it sufficient? Probably not.

Learning a new traction on the trains I was given 2 classroom days followed by an exam and then 3 days handling with an instructor on routes I already signed so it was purely for the traction handling.

Was it sufficient? Yes I’d say so.

Train driving is a better looked after job due to our unions and management.
Maybe that answers your initial question and perhaps it is unions who negotiate the handling time.


If I wasn’t happy with my traction training and they still tried to make my drive then I can confidently exercise the refusal to work policy on grounds of poor training.

I doubt a bus driver would get the same reaction from managers if they said they refuse due to poor training so I get it.

Unfortunately bus drivers just don’t have the same job conditions or security

John Cleese Fan, when you were a Bus Driver what did you need to know about buses faults and failure wise? We're there safety systems such as on a train (EBS, TIS etc) or isolation points for air systems etc that you as a Bus Driver were expected to tinker about with to get the bus moving again (whilst also recalling and implementing the relevant rules and regulations to keep the degraded movement safe?)

 

[Johncleesefan]

Nope. Taught to drive the thing and prepare it for service and apart from that, nothing else.
If you had a fault or a breakdown you radioed into base and told them where u were and what the problem was. They would then send fitters to the scene if u couldn’t move the thing

 

[whoosh]

I haven't mentioned anything about a dispute... my question was is the level of training a legal requirement or is it due to union agreements. And perhaps if people didn't keep on wilfully misreading my question for their own personal agenda I wouldn't have to re- ask the question would I?

Having competent route knowledge is a legal requirement.

How much time is given is an agreement between the union and TOC.

In all the route learning I have undertaken, the time given has always been the right amount without feeling either rushed, or twiddling thumbs being ready early - so there are no "unreasonable demands."
Unfortunately, in many industries, training is given which is 'as little as can be got away with' or less. The union's involvement protects drivers and ensures it is sufficient.



The time given (by agreement) to learning a route will take into account the complexity of the route. Route Learning not only involves learning the myriad of line speeds, crossover speeds, what length of train platforms can hold (can be different lengths for different platforms at the same station), but also what risks there are. There maybe a signal where when there is a train on an adjacent line, it gets hidden behind it, and you can read across to another line's signal. You may have a platform where the stop marker is right up against the signal making it out of sight.

There may be places where the signal is hidden amongst the overhead wires, or behind an overbridge and you can read through to the next signal, which is for the train in front of you (particularly if it's dark and there's a dip in the track where you could lose sight of the train in front and it's taillights).
You'll need to know about those risks on the route you drive.


As an example: If you were driving a train from Kings Cross to Cambridge and stopping at Hitchin, and you leave Stevenage on the fast line, where do you NOT want a green signal? If you get a green you're being routed the wrong way.

What if you aren't stopping at Hitchin, what then? How does that change things?


What if you get a special stop order on a train you're driving? Some stations only have platforms on certain lines, so you'll need to know where the last place you can cross lines is for the extra station you are to stop at, and what indications you need on the signals - because the Signaller might not have been told about your additional stop.

There's a lot more to route knowledge than most people realise, and completely different to driving a bus. For the record, I strongly believe bus drivers should be paid more than they are currently, and it is interesting to observe that in New York City where a large amount of the bus service is provided by the publically owned Transit Authority, and a Trade Union is present which has more influence than bus drivers unions here in the UK, that their pay is similar to Train Operators on the Subway.

Someone else said above that comparing bus driving and train driving is like comparing apples and oranges. It's true - apart from carrying responsibility and having unsocial hours, they are very different. And the same goes for comparisons with pilots as well.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Having competent route knowledge is a legal requirement.

How much time is given is an agreement between the union and TOC.

In all the route learning I have undertaken, the time given has always been the right amount without feeling either rushed, or twiddling thumbs being ready early - so there are no "unreasonable demands."
Unfortunately, in many industries, training is given which is 'as little as can be got away with' or less. The union's involvement protects drivers and ensures it is sufficient.



The time given (by agreement) to learning a route will take into account the complexity of the route. Route Learning not only involves learning the myriad of line speeds, crossover speeds, what length of train platforms can hold (can be different lengths for different platforms at the same station), but also what risks there are. There maybe a signal where when there is a train on an adjacent line, it gets hidden behind it, and you can read across to another line's signal. You may have a platform where the stop marker is right up against the signal making it out of sight.

There may be places where the signal is hidden amongst the overhead wires, or behind an overbridge and you can read through to the next signal, which is for the train in front of you (particularly if it's dark and there's a dip in the track where you could lose sight of the train in front and it's taillights).
You'll need to know about those risks on the route you drive.


As an example: If you were driving a train from Kings Cross to Cambridge and stopping at Hitchin, and you leave Stevenage on the fast line, where do you NOT want a green signal? If you get a green you're being routed the wrong way.

What if you aren't stopping at Hitchin, what then? How does that change things?


What if you get a special stop order on a train you're driving? Some stations only have platforms on certain lines, so you'll need to know where the last place you can cross lines is for the extra station you are to stop at, and what indications you need on the signals - because the Signaller might not have been told about your additional stop.

There's a lot more to route knowledge than most people realise, and completely different to driving a bus. For the record, I strongly believe bus drivers should be paid more than they are currently, and it is interesting to observe that in New York City where a large amount of the bus service is provided by the publically owned Transit Authority, and a Trade Union is present which has more influence than bus drivers unions here in the UK, that their pay is similar to Train Operators on the Subway.

Someone else said above that comparing bus driving and train driving is like comparing apples and oranges. It's true - apart from carrying responsibility and having unsocial hours, they are very different. And the same goes for comparisons with pilots as well.

so, in short, the answer to my question is that route learning/ type training is a legal requirement on the trains {unlike buses}, but the amount of training needed is determined by union agreement? which then leads to the question... does the amount of training get bogged down in disputes? eg union and members not happy with a change so will be obstructive in any way possible to ensure change doesn't run smoothly.

 

[General_miller]

As a bus driver for 6.5 years I can say it's not an easy job. Moving the bus is easy, but you constantly have to drive for other people on the roads as a large proportion of drivers have absolutely no idea that is going on around them. You also have to deal with clowns on the bus. The vast majority of customers were great, but it is the very few who ruin for the many and you can guarantee that you will get at least 1 a week even if their problem is absolutely NOTHING to do with you (e.g. Traffic, previous bus, price etc). When I started I already had 3 years driving experience in my car. I was put in for my PCV test after 10 days of training which I shared with 2 other people. I then did 2 weeks of route learning which I also shared with another driver. I was rusty when I was let out on my own, but if I made a mistake or wasnt 100% on the route I could stop the bus and ask a customer or if I made a mistake and went the wrong way I could reverse or take another road to get back on route.

Now I am a trainee train driver and have been for almost a year. Moving the train is easy, but there are so many rules and regulations for absolutely everything that you wouldn't be able to learn it all within 4 weeks like the bus training. If you make a mistake in the train (wrong side door release, speeding etc.) people can easily die, be it getting electrocuted on the track, run over by a passing train or you could derail the train with potentially 1000 people on board a vehicle weighing anywhere between 75-400 tonnes. I have over 270 hours of handling and there are still routes I am not 100% sure on. Also to directly compare a new traction course to a new bus, I had a 20 min walk around the bus and was let loose, with new traction at my depot You are given a 30-40 min walk around, followed by 3 written exams and 10 hours of handling under instruction.

I'm rambling a bit, but to sum up I'd say that train driving is more demanding on your skills than a bus driver, however bus driving was a lot more stressful day to day due to the points I mentioned at the start. There are many similarities between the two jobs though and they are both highly skilled professions. I enjoyed being a bus driver but I never want to go back to the buses after having experienced life on the trains. Bus drivers are also massively underpaid for the workload and stress they must deal with daily.

 

[whoosh]

so, in short, the answer to my question is that route learning/ type training is a legal requirement on the trains {unlike buses}, but the amount of training needed is determined by union agreement? which then leads to the question... does the amount of training get bogged down in disputes? eg union and members not happy with a change so will be obstructive in any way possible to ensure change doesn't run smoothly.

No. In the case of Thameslink, which you were originally asking about, many of the routes already had 'route learning norms' - (the normal amount of time needed for a driver to learn the route) for example Cambridge drivers need to learn Brighton - there is already a route learning norm to learn Brighton, and also Southern and South Eastern have their route learning norms for the other routes. Thameslink would not have been much if any different from the Southern/South Eastern ones.

The route learning norms were agreed quite late on - AFTER drivers had been sent route learning. Therefore their agreement did not slow the process down, (drivers were already out route learning) and as far as I am aware were just a formality, with no time consuming 'back and forth ' difference of opinion in what they should be - the lateness of the agreement being down to lateness of the whole programme.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

No. In the case of Thameslink, which you were originally asking about, many of the routes already had 'route learning norms' - (the normal amount of time needed for a driver to learn the route) for example Cambridge drivers need to learn Brighton - there is already a route learning norm to learn Brighton, and also Southern and South Eastern have their route learning norms for the other routes. Thameslink would not have been much if any different from the Southern/South Eastern ones.

The route learning norms were agreed quite late on - AFTER drivers had been sent route learning. Therefore their agreement did not slow the process down, (drivers were already out route learning) and as far as I am aware were just a formality, with no time consuming 'back and forth ' difference of opinion in what they should be - the lateness of the agreement being down to lateness of the whole programme.

I see... so would it be a fair assumption that had the TL programme been implemented differently then these problems wouldn't have happened?

What I am thinking is this:

leaving the service patterns on the old TL routes {Bedford- Brighton, St Albans- Wimbledon etc} alone and then laying over new services from GN routes -southern routes and then fully integrating the service pattern a couple of years down the line

 

[Dieseldriver]

so, in short, the answer to my question is that route learning/ type training is a legal requirement on the trains {unlike buses}, but the amount of training needed is determined by union agreement? which then leads to the question... does the amount of training get bogged down in disputes? eg union and members not happy with a change so will be obstructive in any way possible to ensure change doesn't run smoothly.

Why the fixation on unions? With things such as rosters and route learning etc the unions work with the companies, even without them there wouldn't be much of a reduction in the time allowed as the sheer amount of information that needs to be digested and acted on is so extensive
Any doubts about the importance of good route learning for Train Drivers (particularly new Drivers) I suggest you search on Google for the Ladbroke Grove accident report...

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Why the fixation on unions? With things such as rosters and route learning etc the unions work with the companies, even without them there wouldn't be much of a reduction in the time allowed as the sheer amount of information that needs to be digested and acted on is so extensive
Any doubts about the importance of good route learning for Train Drivers (particularly new Drivers) I suggest you search on Google for the Ladbroke Grove accident report..bu.

why not ask the question as to whether disputes can get in the way of the route learning? I don't want to open old wounds, but recently there were huge problems on Southern due to a dispute over DOO. The unions stated on the national news on numerous occasions that it was a safety issue yet as soon as a huge pay rise was dangled in front of them suddenly there was no safety issues! Perhaps I am being a bit cynical, but it does open up the question in a laypersons mind as to whether there has been union interference in the training programme.

Since I originally asked the question I have had a number of good replies from yourself and others which have enlightened me.

 

[Dieseldriver]

why not ask the question as to whether disputes can get in the way of the route learning? I don't want to open old wounds, but recently there were huge problems on Southern due to a dispute over DOO. The unions stated on the national news on numerous occasions that it was a safety issue yet as soon as a huge pay rise was dangled in front of them suddenly there was no safety issues! Perhaps I am being a bit cynical, but it does open up the question in a laypersons mind as to whether there has been union interference in the training programme.

Since I originally asked the question I have had a number of good replies from yourself and others which have enlightened me.

It is something you've repeatedly brought up though. Route Knowledge isn't a bargaining tool for unions, it is a large and vital part of a Train Drivers competency. We literally cannot do our job without extensive route knowledge.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

It is something you've repeatedly brought up though. Route Knowledge isn't a bargaining tool for unions, it is a large and vital part of a Train Drivers competency. We literally cannot do our job without extensive route knowledge.

ok let me ask the question in a different way... when HS2 is built it will be over totally new track yes? as such there will be no custom and practice to determine how much time is needed for route learning... lets say management state "4 weeks training will be enough" the unions disagree and state "no our members will need a minimum of 6 weeks" what happens then? who decides which side is right?

 

[Dieseldriver]

ok let me ask the question in a different way... when HS2 is built it will be over totally new track yes? as such there will be no custom and practice to determine how much time is needed for route learning... lets say management state "4 weeks training will be enough" the unions disagree and state "no our members will need a minimum of 6 weeks" what happens then? who decides which side is right?

They will discuss it and come to an agreement that suits both parties. It suits TOCs to have Drivers with good route knowledge and if as a Driver you are struggling to pick up a new route, they are pretty accommodating to give you extra time as it is important you are fully competent when you go out there.
Unions don't run the railway, we are trained highly because we would be incapable of doing our jobs without that training which would render us useless to the people that pay our wages...

 

[Dieseldriver]

I find it bizarre that you are so obsessed with unions in relation to this subject. They are a small part of it.

 

[scotraildriver]

I have never in all my railway career heard of a dispute over route learning.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I find it bizarre that you are so obsessed with unions in relation to this subject. They are a small part of it.

why do you find it bizarre that someone would want to know the union's role in something? or are you telling me that the culture of the rail industry is that no-one should ever dare question the union? I, in turn, find it disturbing that you object to the union's role should be held up for scrutiny or question...

what is wrong with a member of public trying to understand what processes are involved in it being decided that 4 weeks training on a route is the right amount of time? at the end of the day, with the huge subsidies paid to TOC's by the taxpayer then surely the industry should be accountable as to why it is such a horribly expensive and complex burden on said tax payer.

In truth, the more I receive defensive or aggressive answers from train drivers {union members} then the more I might be forgiven for thinking there is something being hidden from the public here.
I am not anti-union.... I am just seeking an understanding of the processes