Train felt like it was derailing

[Mathieu]

Last week I was on the 09:39 Glasgow Queen St. to Aberdeen HST service. Going along the E&G at what felt like full line speed the train started to slow to take the left towards Stirling, as we traversed the points the train jerked to the right and then to the left followed by one more to the right whilst being thrown upwards slightly. In this moment I was convinced that we were coming off the tracks, both bottles on the table went flying off it.

I was wondering if anyone has had any similar experiences where they felt like they were going to come off the tracks?

 

[Bantamzen]

I was once on a Huddersfield to Bradford service when the unit, a 150 hit a steel bar that had been put on the tracks close to Brighouse. It did feel for all the world that the train had derailed for a moment, aside from the noise of the impact the train moved perceptibly upwards for a moment before the driver applied the emergency brakes. I've been on a fair few trains that have impacted objects, and sadly one occasion a person, but this was by far the worst occasion as I felt genuine fear that we were leaving the tracks.

 

[ComUtoR]

Did either of you pull the passcom ?

 

[scotraildriver]

That junction has always be a bit rough since it was renewed a few years back. Quite a sharp left/right swing. Combined with the HSTs some of which aren't great gives a bit of a kick. I tend to take it a bit less than line speed.

 

[hexagon789]

Last week I was on the 09:39 Glasgow Queen St. to Aberdeen HST service. Going along the E&G at what felt like full line speed the train started to slow to take the left towards Stirling, as we traversed the points the train jerked to the right and then to the left followed by one more to the right whilst being thrown upwards slightly. In this moment I was convinced that we were coming off the tracks, both bottles on the table went flying off it.

I was wondering if anyone has had any similar experiences where they felt like they were going to come off the tracks?

There's been quite a lurch coming off the E&G at Greenhill Upper for as long as I can remember, the diverging speed is 70 which is quite high.

I've had a really bad lurch over the junction in 170396, so it's nothing new.

Besides the driver will feel anything first and I'm sure if they felt it was unsafe they wouldn't hesitate to put the brake in.

 

[LowLevel]

There's been quite a lurch coming off the E&G at Greenhill Upper for as long as I can remember, the diverging speed is 70 which is quite high.

I've had a really bad lurch over the junction in 170396, so it's nothing new.

Besides the driver will feel anything first and I'm sure if they felt it was unsafe they wouldn't hesitate to put the brake in.

Never assume the latter. If you feel something isn't right tell a member of staff - it is emphasised to them to take customer concerns seriously in this regard.

This was a contributory factor in the Potters Bar crash and also the German ICE crash that destroyed a bridge and killed a huge number of people. There's no guarantee that the train crew will be aware of a problem with the train or with the infrastructure.

Real life example. My driver was motoring along quite happily at line speed. I walked into a carriage that was quite literally bouncing to the point it felt like it was coming off the track with the passengers sitting there paying no attention whatsoever to their belongings being thrown around the train. I stopped the train and we had a look around and found the air suspension had failed at one end of the vehicle.

I've stopped numerous trains with issues over the years, none of which the driver was aware of because there was no indication at the front end.

I cannot highlight enough how important it is to tell someone if something doesn't seem right.

 

[Journeyman]

That junction has always be a bit rough since it was renewed a few years back. Quite a sharp left/right swing. Combined with the HSTs some of which aren't great gives a bit of a kick. I tend to take it a bit less than line speed.

I don't know quite why the Mark 3s are considered to be like travelling on magic carpets - I've had quite a few trips where the things lurch and bounce all over the place.

 

[hexagon789]

Never assume the latter. If you feel something isn't right tell a member of staff - it is emphasised to them to take customer concerns seriously in this regard.

You'll forgive me for be a bit non-plussed about it, but the last time I told a guard about a visible fault with the train he seemed totally unconcerned about it. Few hours later had the same unit back and with the same fault.

This was a contributory factor in the Potters Bar crash and also the German ICE crash that destroyed a bridge and killed a huge number of people. There's no guarantee that the train crew will be aware of a problem with the train or with the infrastructure.

I appreciate that, but Greenhill has been like this for years, you always get a bad kick from the junction, I would imagine drivers have felt said kick over the years and know about it rather as members of this forum (drivers and otherwise) know of the more 'worn' stretches of the WCML and ECML.

Real life example. My driver was motoring along quite happily at line speed. I walked into a carriage that was quite literally bouncing to the point it felt like it was coming off the track with the passengers sitting there paying no attention whatsoever to their belongings being thrown around the train. I stopped the train and we had a look around and found the air suspension had failed at one end of the vehicle.

In the case of 170396 I was sat behind the driver, over the lead bogie, so he or she must've felt every bump and jolt that I did.

I've stopped numerous trains with issues over the years, none of which the driver was aware of because there was no indication at the front end.

Perhaps I'll mention it more often, but when staff seem unconcerned you think to yourself - what's the point?

 

[hexagon789]

I don't know quite why the Mark 3s are considered to be like travelling on magic carpets - I've had quite a few trips where the things lurch and bounce all over the place.

It's the bogie dampeners, the orginal type are no longer manufacturered, so different HST operators have different types. GWR's are considered better than the one's LNER uses which don't dampen out rougher track so well.

 

[LowLevel]

You'll forgive me for be a bit non-plussed about it, but the last time I told a guard about a visible fault with the train he seemed totally unconcerned about it. Few hours later had the same unit back and with the same fault.



I appreciate that, but Greenhill has been like this for years, you always get a bad kick from the junction, I would imagine drivers have felt said kick over the years and know about it rather as members of this forum (drivers and otherwise) know of the more 'worn' stretches of the WCML and ECML.



In the case of 170396 I was sat behind the driver, over the lead bogie, so he or she must've felt every bump and jolt that I did.



Perhaps I'll mention it more often, but when staff seem unconcerned you think to yourself - what's the point?

170s are notoriously hard riding units and bottom out with tedious regularity unfortunately.

Repeatedly reporting poor track quality is tedious but does eventually get results in the long term.

We had a particularly poor stretch of 75 mph jointed bullhead rail with a humongous kick over a red green light crossing. The whole stretch has finally after years of complaints been ripped up and re laid with new track and the problem has gone entirely, it's lovely now!

 

[hexagon789]

170s are notoriously hard riding units and bottom out with tedious regularity unfortunately.

Repeatedly reporting poor track quality is tedious but does eventually get results in the long term.

We had a particularly poor stretch of 75 mph jointed bullhead rail with a humongous kick over a red green light crossing. The whole stretch has finally after years of complaints been ripped up and re laid with new track and the problem has gone entirely, it's lovely now!

170s seem fine on decent track, but can be rather poor on rough, well worn track.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Never assume the latter. If you feel something isn't right tell a member of staff - it is emphasised to them to take customer concerns seriously in this regard... and also the German ICE crash that destroyed a bridge and killed a huge number of people.

Eschede could've been prevented had they not followed procedure and pulled the red (is it red in Germany?) handle. But they told the staff member first and we know what happened next.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Eschede could've been prevented had they not followed procedure and pulled the red (is it red in Germany?) handle. But they told the staff member first and we know what happened next.

Red for emergency brake, green for passcom. A good plan to me to have both for different situations.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Red for emergency brake, green for passcom. A good plan to me to have both for different situations.

Some trains have Emergency by the doors and PASCOM in the toilet. Some have them located together.

 

[hexagon789]

Eschede could've been prevented had they not followed procedure and pulled the red (is it red in Germany?) handle. But they told the staff member first and we know what happened next.

It seems to be red in most countries.

 

[Qwerty133]

You'll forgive me for be a bit non-plussed about it, but the last time I told a guard about a visible fault with the train he seemed totally unconcerned about it. Few hours later had the same unit back and with the same fault.

Presumably the reaction of the guard will depend on what the exact fault is especially in cases where the fault is visible. I would imagine that guards have some training into which faults are less than ideal but pose no real safety issue and which ones require immediate action. For example it is not infrequent that I see units running around with missing or unlock able covers on the guards door controls but as they cannot be operated without a key in any case them being visible poses no real risk to the public. (yes I'm aware that T keys are not exactly difficult to obtain but anyone willing to use one improperly would also probably have access to a key for the exterior lock.)

 

[bionic]

Did either of you pull the passcom ?

Eschede could've been prevented had they not followed procedure and pulled the red (is it red in Germany?) handle. But they told the staff member first and we know what happened next.

Lets not be encouraging people to pull passcoms every time there's a bit of a rough ride. There are some very impressionable people on this forum, people who probably do not understand the difference between a train taking points at the permissible speed and a life or death situation. They will take what you say quite literally. It's irresponsible to suggest people should dive for the passcom every time a drink falls of a table going over points. There was a guy the other day talking about pulling passcoms for a beggar going down the train. Come on folks, lets not encourage passcom misuse.

If you are genuinely worried tell the guard (or the driver when you get off), failing that tweet the TOC or Network Rail. Don't start telling people to pull passcoms for a couple of spilled drinks. As people who know the line have said above, this is a known spot for having a bit of a lurch.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It seems to be red in most countries.

Generally in Europe red stops the train and green is just a passcom. So you might use red if you think the train is derailed or on fire, but green for a medical emergency or assault, say. (The latter is the reason why they were originally introduced!)

 

[Bantamzen]

Did either of you pull the passcom ?

In my case there was no need, the driver was more than aware of the incident and was busy on the brakes as soon as he realised.

 

[Journeyman]

Lets not be encouraging people to pull passcoms every time there's a bit of a rough ride. There are some very impressionable people on this forum, people who probably do not understand the difference between a train taking points at the permissible speed and a life or death situation. They will take what you say quite literally. It's irresponsible to suggest people should dive for the passcom every time a drink falls of a table going over points. There was a guy the other day talking about pulling passcoms for a beggar going down the train. Come on folks, lets not encourage passcom misuse.

Absolutely agreed, there's one individual in particular who tries to formulate "rules" in his head for when to act in certain circumstances, and I'm very concerned that far too many people on here try to egg him on, and provide him with information that won't be used constructively.

 

[Deepgreen]

Did either of you pull the passcom ?

I hope you would follow responses of "no" with "good". The last thing we want is encouragement to stop trains when rough riding is perceived!

 

[headshot119]

Absolutely agreed, there's one individual in particular who tries to formulate "rules" in his head for when to act in certain circumstances, and I'm very concerned that far too many people on here try to egg him on, and provide him with information that won't be used constructively.

I wonder who you could mean!

 

[ainsworth74]

Temple Hirst junction on the ECML used to be horrendous for rough riding at 125. There was more than one occasion going over I found myself thinking "are we derailing or is just a bit rougher than usual?". It's been better for a few years now so I assume at some point Network Rail must have fixed it.

 

[The_Train]

Little Bridgford Junction just north of Stafford where the XC line from Stoke joins the WCML is a bit of a rough junction. Certainly caught a few unsuspecting people out who have chosen that time to venture to the toilet or if (as is popular on XC services) it is standing room only and have been thrown across the carriage or into a door in the vestibule.

Is it just a case on these junctions that max speeds are pushed to the limit of safety or would some sort of work to the line correct the issue?

 

[hexagon789]

Presumably the reaction of the guard will depend on what the exact fault is especially in cases where the fault is visible. I would imagine that guards have some training into which faults are less than ideal but pose no real safety issue and which ones require immediate action. For example it is not infrequent that I see units running around with missing or unlock able covers on the guards door controls but as they cannot be operated without a key in any case them being visible poses no real risk to the public. (yes I'm aware that T keys are not exactly difficult to obtain but anyone willing to use one improperly would also probably have access to a key for the exterior lock.)

I created a thread on this at the time but basically an underframe door was swinging open and scraping the edge of the platform.

Lets not be encouraging people to pull passcoms every time there's a bit of a rough ride. There are some very impressionable people on this forum, people who probably do not understand the difference between a train taking points at the permissible speed and a life or death situation. They will take what you say quite literally. It's irresponsible to suggest people should dive for the passcom every time a drink falls of a table going over points. There was a guy the other day talking about pulling passcoms for a beggar going down the train. Come on folks, lets not encourage passcom misuse.

If you are genuinely worried tell the guard (or the driver when you get off), failing that tweet the TOC or Network Rail. Don't start telling people to pull passcoms for a couple of spilled drinks. As people who know the line have said above, this is a known spot for having a bit of a lurch.

I wouldn't, I know it's a bad spot and prepare accordingly. Besides I'm sure a train could take it at 90-100 without derailing, but it would be very uncomfortable.

I'm sure that whenever it gets renewed it'll be much better.

Tbh, it's about the only rough spot I can think of on the Scottish network, of there are others they are too 'soft' for me to notice!

Is it just a case on these junctions that max speeds are pushed to the limit of safety or would some sort of work to the line correct the issue?

Not to the limit of safety, the railway doesn't like to do that - there'll be a good margin before anything untoward happens, nevertheless remedial work may well cure the issue, it's likely down to heavy use and high speeds take its toll on the track.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Years back I was on an evening suburban service from Victoria in a 4-SUB, not stopping at Battersea Park, and it took the curve after the bridge over the Waterloo lines at an astonishing speed. I thought that we'd be off the track, as did the bloke sitting opposite me; we were very worried. I was rather glad when I alighted at Clapham Junction.

There used to be a track joint at the end of the curve on the up Kingston to New Malden line, just before the Elm Road level crossing, which always gave a very nasty thump, even at a low speed. It's been fixed for some years now.

 

[Spamcan81]

Back in 1999 I was on the Cumbres and Toltec in Colorado. We hit an obstruction in a snow drift. Loco came off the track but thankfully the caboose stayed on. Relatively low speed but the sudden stop put all of us in a heap on the floor. We emerged shaken but uninjured thank goodness.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Lets not be encouraging people to pull passcoms every time there's a bit of a rough ride.

Eschede was a wheel tyre sticking up through the floor. I'd want to pull an emergency handle if a piece of metal shot through the floor of a train.

 

[Journeyman]

I wonder who you could mean!

He takes a particular interest in police officers...

 

[Deepgreen]

Eschede was a wheel tyre sticking up through the floor. I'd want to pull an emergency handle if a piece of metal shot through the floor of a train.

Yes, very obviously a valid occasion for that.