Train Horns

[Deepgreen]

I was under the impression that it is mandatory for the sounding of train horns to use both tones in most circumstances, to differentiate the warning from, say, a road vehicle. However, I rarely hear both tones used these days, and on my line the many 'W' signs for crossings only elicit a single tone.

Have I missed a rule change - is this now permitted, or am I wrong in thinking that two tones have always been required?

 

[Railsigns]

See bottom of page here.

 

[Kneedown]

I was under the impression that it is mandatory for the sounding of train horns to use both tones in most circumstances, to differentiate the warning from, say, a road vehicle. However, I rarely hear both tones used these days, and on my line the many 'W' signs for crossings only elicit a single tone.

Have I missed a rule change - is this now permitted, or am I wrong in thinking that two tones have always been required?

Single tone only to be sounded at "W" boards unless local instructions decree otherwise. Been like that for a couple of years at least. New hours of sounding horn are between 06:00 and midnight, so an additional hour each side.

 

[driver9000]

The Rule book has required low tone only between 07:00 & 23:00 when passing Whistle boards since June 2007. This was done to reduce noise to railway neighbours. In December 2016 it changed to 06:00 and 23:59. However the Driver is free to use both tones if they deem it necessary, for example if I'm approaching a W board and a train has just gone the other way I might sound both tones just to provide an extra alert to someone waiting to cross.

 

[Deepgreen]

Excellent, this explains it - thanks. I'm surprised the balance of risk (possible confusion with nearby road vehicles, for example) has been outweighed by the nuisance factor here, but so be it.

 

[Taunton]

The USA has developed a novel approach to the issue of neighbours complaining about horn noise, by mounting the horn at their many level crossings not on the locomotive, but on trackside poles, activated by track circuits, which are intelligent in that they are speed-sensitive. They give the normal distinctive traditional US long-long-short-long sound. The sound can be made very directional with this sort of installation.

 

[Deepgreen]

The USA has developed a novel approach to the issue of neighbours complaining about horn noise, by mounting the horn at their many level crossings not on the locomotive, but on trackside poles, activated by track circuits, which are intelligent in that they are speed-sensitive. They give the normal distinctive traditional US long-long-short-long sound. The sound can be made very directional with this sort of installation.

Interesting, but presumably the sound still needs to be directed at the same place/area whether static or moving, so how does this reduce disturbance? I imagine it is possible to make train horns just as specifically-directional as static ones.

 

[edwin_m]

Interesting, but presumably the sound still needs to be directed at the same place/area whether static or moving, so how does this reduce disturbance? I imagine it is possible to make train horns just as specifically-directional as static ones.

Maybe a question of volume rather than directionality?

Presumably a train horn needs to be reasonably directional as people way off to the side have no need to know about it. However it needs to be audible half a mile or so ahead of the train so even with limited spilloff to one side plenty of people will hear it.

A fixed horn can be a lot quieter but a lot nearer to the area where the warning is needed, so people at the crossing hear at the same volume as if it was on an approaching train, but it has much less impact on people elsewhere.

 

[Deepgreen]

Maybe a question of volume rather than directionality?

Presumably a train horn needs to be reasonably directional as people way off to the side have no need to know about it. However it needs to be audible half a mile or so ahead of the train so even with limited spilloff to one side plenty of people will hear it.

A fixed horn can be a lot quieter but a lot nearer to the area where the warning is needed, so people at the crossing hear at the same volume as if it was on an approaching train, but it has much less impact on people elsewhere.

Indeed, but it also needs to audible to those in, for example, cars which are still some way from the crossing and with loud music playing.

 

[edwin_m]

Indeed, but it also needs to audible to those in, for example, cars which are still some way from the crossing and with loud music playing.

In which case directionality does become important. A horn on the site could be directed off down the road to either side, but to achieve similar coverage when the train is half a mile away a train-mounted horn would have to have a very wide spread of sound that would affect a large number of people over a big triangle in front of the train.

 

[CarlSilva]

If I fit one on the car will people get out fo the way quicker ?

 

[AndrewE]

The Rule book has required low tone only between 07:00 & 23:00 when passing Whistle boards since June 2007. This was done to reduce noise to railway neighbours. In December 2016 it changed to 06:00 and 23:59. However the Driver is free to use both tones if they deem it necessary, for example if I'm approaching a W board and a train has just gone the other way I might sound both tones just to provide an extra alert to someone waiting to cross.

Do you mean between 23:00 and 07:00 (and 23:59 and 06:00) i.e. during the night, or is it really single tone only during the day?
I'm not being pedantic, as this seems to be the opposite of what logic would require...

Even when the rule book (or General Appendix) did contain words meaning "both tones must be sounded" there were still Southern Region EMUs with a single tones, but I think their sectional appendix allowed that!

 

[ComUtoR]

i.e. during the night, or is it really single tone only during the day?

Single tone throughout the day. NO tone at night.

 

[Elecman]

Single tone throughout the day. NO tone at night.

Except in emergency

 

[ComUtoR]

Except in emergency

Or if people are on or near the line. Or where instructed. Or if you believe the crossing is in use. Or just for ****s and giggles.

I do believe this is about the instruction for whistle boards, rather than the overall use of the horn.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I use two tones, that way there's no ambiguity whether I sounded the horn or not. And the OTMR will show that too.

As for those who complain about it, my answer is tough you moved next to a working railway, it was there before you, you live with it. One tone isnt enough.

 

[Elecman]

Or if people are on or near the line. Or where instructed. Or if you believe the crossing is in use. Or just for ****s and giggles.

I do believe this is about the instruction for whistle boards, rather than the overall use of the horn.

Yes and I meant at night at a whistle board.

 

[DelW]

I use two tones, that way there's no ambiguity whether I sounded the horn or not. And the OTMR will show that too.

As for those who complain about it, my answer is tough you moved next to a working railway, it was there before you, you live with it. One tone isnt enough.

To me, two tones definitely means a train, ever since road emergency vehicles changed to electronic warbles. A single tone, even the low note, is too much like a lorry horn to be distinctive.

As Taunton mentioned above, the US railways all use the long-long-short-long whistle specifically at level crossings. That's probably much too long for the neighbours' ears in Britain, but would there be any merit in devising a specific level-crossing warning in this country, to distinguish it from a road vehicle horn? Of course it would need to be publicised so the public understood its meaning, but if that was aimed at UWC users (farmers and tractor drivers particularly) it might help reduce the number of collisions that still occur on those.

 

[AndrewE]

Single tone throughout the day. NO tone at night.

Thanks for that, it had never occurred to me that there might be no horn at all at night, but I suppose it's understandable. However there must be places where winding track makes a headlight visible a lot later than a horn would be heard. I'm trying to think of somewhere that the SW board is positioned well before the crossing comes into sight...
I still think the double tone (to distinguish it from road traffic) was distinctive and therefore sensible though.

 

[Taunton]

There has been more than one serious incident recently where track workers have been struck by a train not continuing on its direct track but diverging over crossovers etc.

I've always felt that there should be a procedure where a train approaching track staff gives the normal two-tone hoot, but if it is taking a diverting track it gives the two-tone hoot twice, as an extra indication that it is going over a diverging route.

 

[gsnedders]

I can think of a few whistle boards that I frequently travel pass that once in a blue moon actually have a horn sounded at; AFAIK there's blatant disregard for the rules?

 

[ComUtoR]

AFAIK there's blatant disregard for the rules?

Local instructions may dictate.

 

[berwicksfinest]

I use two tones, that way there's no ambiguity whether I sounded the horn or not. And the OTMR will show that too.

As for those who complain about it, my answer is tough you moved next to a working railway, it was there before you, you live with it. One tone isnt enough.

Man after my own heart !! My sentiments exactly

 

[QueensCurve]

Single tone throughout the day. NO tone at night.

That's no fun any more. :cry:

 

[ComUtoR]

That's no fun any more. :cry:

It is when you prep 'em

 

[robbeech]

Every time we double the distance from the horn we halve the volume. So it doesn't take much distance to dramatically reduce the volume at the place it is needed so it is easy to understand why the horns in the trains have to be loud. When we add wind (actual wind and air disturbances caused by the train itself and of course other rail/nearby traffic) we can adjust the results so wildly that it becomes difficult to provide a solution for every scenario. The best way around this is to keep them loud. The horn shape is used to make the sound slightly more directional but in the real world it doesn't do much. However if we take the example of a train that has a whistle board, a right hand bend and then a crossing (somewhere where the whistle board is more important so one can hear the train before one can see it) then a very (theoretically) directional horn is of little use as it will be pointing the wrong way.

 

[Deepgreen]

I use two tones, that way there's no ambiguity whether I sounded the horn or not. And the OTMR will show that too.

As for those who complain about it, my answer is tough you moved next to a working railway, it was there before you, you live with it. One tone isnt enough.

My gut feeling is that this is right - two tones are there to ensure no confusion with other warnings. I also don't really believe that a single tone is significantly less disturbing than two. Funnily enough, my driver this morning used two tones throughout from Dorking to Victoria (with some quiet bits in between, of course!).

Again, I am amazed that the safety culture of today has been trumped by a very minor environmental improvement. This is the reverse of so many other issues.

 

[robbeech]

Funnily enough, my driver this morning used two tones throughout from Dorking to Victoria (with some quiet bits in between, of course!).

I am glad there were some quiet bits else I would have been mildly concerned you'd caught a fire engine instead of a train.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I used to use a public crossing in St Austell at Holmbush, many years ago, looking on the map today the fields have changed to housing estates.
There is considerable noise from the main road. On the down line the curve before is in a cutting, you have to rely on the train's whistle. Depending on the wind you could not hear the diesel engine. I did not like using that crossing. (I am not saying that it was not safe) A two tone horn is essential on that crossing at least 6.00am to midnight on the down line imo.

 

[Fincra5]

There's also local instructions. On the Seaford branch there's a very well used footcrossing called Tidemills. Because of the of the amount of near misses we're instructed to do a sound the horn for 5 sec's min as the some of the people still stupidly chance it.