Training costs

[Aivilo]

Just a word of warning to trainees and PQA drivers regarding training costs that are payable to your employer should you leave within a certain time frame.

I've read on the forum that these costs are not enforceable hell I think I have even given that advice myself.

They are enforceable despite the union advising it is scaremongering and a colleague currently has the tidy sum of 5000 to find .

So please bare in mind that regardless of the reasons (his were pretty serious for leaving) that you will be chased (ruthlessly by his previous employer)

 

[GB]

You may get chased but that doesn't necessarily mean its enforceable.

I remember reading a similar contract a while ago for a company and among the some of the points were...


If you failed to pass the course you would be required to payback the training costs.

Even if you pass the course the company is at liberty to terminate your contract and you will be required to payback the training costs.

I'm not a lawyer but can't really see those being enforceable in a court of law.

 

[Aivilo]

Well he had challenged this for some time. They issued court proceedings and now has a CCJ as everything was sent to his former address (the company knew he did not live there) at the time he was incredibly depressed but they've pursued it to a point now where he has no choice but to pay and live with a CCJ.

Shame as he's a hard working lad and moved employer as his partner was sick.

Was just a word of warning

 

[GB]

That is incredibly poor!

 

[SkinnyDave]

Well he had challenged this for some time. They issued court proceedings and now has a CCJ as everything was sent to his former address (the company knew he did not live there) at the time he was incredibly depressed but they've pursued it to a point now where he has no choice but to pay and live with a CCJ.

Shame as he's a hard working lad and moved employer as his partner was sick.

Was just a word of warning

If it same lad I am thinking of there is a bit more to it than that.
One lad I know made contact with solicitor and responded to letter then got CCJ put on after having words with the solicitor not before. If he left it I dont know how they could have done it.

 

[Aivilo]

If it same lad I am thinking of there is a bit more to it than that.
One lad I know made contact with solicitor and responded to letter then got CCJ put on after having words with the solicitor not before. If he left it I dont know how they could have done it.

The events are quite lengthy and I I wouldn't want to disclose more than I have already.

All in all quite a crap situation and just a word of warning to those thinking they can hop on get a key and move on

 

[Albatross]

I've just left a place after only 13 months, it's in my contract that I will have to payback training costs if I leave within two years but they're not pursuing it.

Which company are you talking about?

 

[Bromley boy]

Interesting question, my own employment contract contains a clause like this.

http://www.pureemploymentlaw.co.uk/unenforceable-repayment-provisions/

From the above link (out of date but, from a quick Google search, still looks accurate), it looks like these kind of clauses are enforceable provided

- they are a genuine attempt to recoup loss rather than a "penalty"

- not payable in circumstances where the employee is made redundant etc through no fault of their own (eg my own contract only requires repayment if I resign of my own volition rather than being dismissed, which seems fair enough to me)

- the repayment term is not so long as to constitute a restraint of trade (again this is probably a question of fact - the article mentions 5 years as too long).

So probably depends on a case by case basis - how long is the repayment, has the employer been savvy enough to take specialist advice in drafting the contract? Etc. But yes the OP is right to say these clauses cannot just be dismissed as unenforceable without more specialist advice.

It's easy enough to get around, though. Just don't take a job unless you are willing to stick it out for at least a few years after training!

 

[PermitToTravel]

Well he had challenged this for some time. They issued court proceedings and now has a CCJ as everything was sent to his former address (the company knew he did not live there) at the time he was incredibly depressed but they've pursued it to a point now where he has no choice but to pay and live with a CCJ.

If he wasn't aware of the court proceedings then he can sign a statutory declaration to that effect in front of a magistrate to have them restarted

 

[SkinnyDave]

Interesting question, my own employment contract contains a clause like this.

http://www.pureemploymentlaw.co.uk/unenforceable-repayment-provisions/

From the above link (out of date but, from a quick Google search, still looks accurate), it looks like these kind of clauses are enforceable provided

- they are a genuine attempt to recoup loss rather than a "penalty"

- not payable in circumstances where the employee is made redundant etc through no fault of their own (eg my own contract only requires repayment if I resign of my own volition rather than being dismissed, which seems fair enough to me)

- the repayment term is not so long as to constitute a restraint of trade (again this is probably a question of fact - the article mentions 5 years as too long).

So probably depends on a case by case basis - how long is the repayment, has the employer been savvy enough to take specialist advice in drafting the contract? Etc. But yes the OP is right to say these clauses cannot just be dismissed as unenforceable without more specialist advice.

It's easy enough to get around, though. Just don't take a job unless you are willing to stick it out for at least a few years after training!

Depends on how well they are written into contract and I see where you are comi g from in last sentence but not always as easy or as straight forward as that.

 

[Bromley boy]

Depends on how well they are written into contract and I see where you are comi g from in last sentence but not always as easy or as straight forward as that.

Yes indeed - as I mentioned will depend on the facts and whether the TOC took specialist employment law advice when drafting the contract. As large businesses I imagine the vast majority would have and would not include clauses that are likely to be unenforceable.

I can see it from both sides - if a TOC is investing a lot in training someone up they need to see some payback for their investment. Equally as an employee you want to know the clause will only be enforced for a limited period after you qualify, and not if they sack you or make you redundant etc.

 

[Aivilo]

The TOC was down south. Many with the same contract had left prior with no implications bar one who forfeited his last months money I believe.

He had fought with the toc about having the order set aside by them. As they applied at an address they knew he did not reside it can simply be written off as clerical error thus no costs to either party. They've declined this and if he doesn't (which he has) apply himself for the order (£155 with no guarantee) they will send bailiffs.

 

[Bromley boy]

The TOC was down south. Many with the same contract had left prior with no implications bar one who forfeited his last months money I believe.

He had fought with the toc about having the order set aside by them. As they applied at an address they knew he did not reside it can simply be written off as clerical error thus no costs to either party. They've declined this and if he doesn't (which he has) apply himself for the order (£155 with no guarantee) they will send bailiffs.

What is his objective? If it's to get the judgment set aside, that may be tricky. You say the TOC knew he did not live at the address they had on file, but can he can prove he gave his new address to them? The onus will be on him to show that. Even if the judgement is set aside it won't affect the underlying case - they could simply apply for another judgement with the correct address.

Is likely they will have transferred the debt over to a debt collection agency hence the threat of bailiffs - it sounds like a pretty serious scenario to be honest and he would be best speaking to a professional advisor or at least citizens advice. Doesn't help now but he would have been better off negotiating with them at an earlier stage rather than letting things progress this far.

If he doesn't have sufficient assets to pay he could end up declaring himself bankrupt and that would likely nullify the CCJ - albeit with a ruinous effect on his credit rating.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

I left a TOC, years ago mind, before the time was up, no clause was ever enforced

 

[Aivilo]

Like I say just a heads up for others.

 

[Spankthemonkey]

What grade are we talking about here? How much does a driver or guard cost to train-up on average then?

 

[whoosh]

They'll say tens of thousands, but I think it's likely that this is what they claim as training costs for the purpose of offsetting tax, rather than the actual cost.

 

[455driver]

You say he changed employer, so did he leave one TOC (after they trained him) to join another TOC doing the same job, did he leave one TOC to join another TOC but to do a different job or did he leave the rail industry all together?

 

[Aivilo]

He left the toc for a foc to relocate as his partner was suffering from post natal Depression.

Like I've said its more just to warn others as I know there is some misinformation out there

 

[Stuart-h]

That's the same with a lot of hgv firms. Normally you've got to commit for 2 years after you've passed the tests.

 

[Bromley boy]

What grade are we talking about here? How much does a driver or guard cost to train-up on average then?

I was told in the region of £125k to train a driver start to finish. The contracts usually ask for far less than this to be repaid in the event of leaving e.g the max mine asks for is £12k, reducing every six months.

 

[Aivilo]

Nobody receives the same training but guess they can't tailor contracts to suit the individual.

My advice take your time get your monies worth