Trains advertised short of final destination e.g. to 'Ealing Broadway'

[LNW-GW Joint]

At least we seem to have moved away from the lazy practice of putting (eg) Wigan on the PIS at one end of the train, and Liverpool at the other, and then running it all day like that on the Liverpool-Wigan shuttle.

Merseyrail's Wirral Line runs what it calls "circular services" via the Liverpool loop line (when it's open, that is).
Inward destinations always say Liverpool Central, but at the inward James St stop the PIS seamlessly changes to the outward destination, usually (but not always) where you came from.

 

[cuccir]

Interestingly they shifted over how they do this for the Newcastle to Glasgow via Carlisle/Dumfries service. At some point in 2016 I noticed that these were now signed as 'Barrhead' when leaving Newcastle, to differentiate from the more direct service via the ECML whereas they definitely used to be signed 'Glasgow'. This would suggest that they've had some confused travellers to make this change.

 

[Anvil1984]

Interestingly they shifted over how they do this for the Newcastle to Glasgow via Carlisle/Dumfries service. At some point in 2016 I noticed that these were now signed as 'Barrhead' when leaving Newcastle, to differentiate from the more direct service via the ECML whereas they definitely used to be signed 'Glasgow'. This would suggest that they've had some confused travellers to make this change.

Yes we did. Mostly on a Saturday where there was our 0630 Glasgow service and the 0630 VTEC service to Edinburgh, passengers would attempt to board the 0630 Glasgow with advance tickets for the 0630 Edinburgh which led to some irate conversations when you had to excess them

 

[heart-of-wessex]

- Reading has a 'next trains to London' board. I was in a rush once and was worried about accidentally getting on the slow train to London. I asked the information desk and they somewhat condescendingly told me that the slow trains are not listed as being to London.

What I don't understand is why the trains aren't listed as 'Paddington (local stopping service)', as they are in the direction towards Oxford. Would there be any major downsides to this. The current policy of (almost) lying about the final destination of the train is quite irksome to me, when I think about it.

Are you not answering your own question?

If Reading is showing Ealing Broadway and you are wanting to avoid stopper services, then you are looking for Paddington trains that will be the fast train you want?

 

[ComUtoR]

There is no consistency as to how they are advertised online,at the station or on the train.

There is plenty of consistency when you look at it. Especially on the train.

I did Maze Hill to Sidcup recently, a perfectly sensible journey on a direct train.

It's cheaper and quicker using alternative transport.

However on the train it was a service to Slade Green throughout , until it changed at Slade Green to be Cannon Street. Online was the only place where it was correctly advertised as a loop service.

There is a good reason why the train stays the same for the entire journey and only changes at Slade Green

You also have to consider for that route they go Cannon <> Cannon, Cannon <> Cross, Via Sidcup, Bexleyheath, Greenwich, and via Lewisham.

 

[GW43125]

There is a good reason why the train stays the same for the entire journey and only changes at Slade Green

You also have to consider for that route they go Cannon <> Cannon, Cannon <> Cross, Via Sidcup, Bexleyheath, Greenwich, and via Lewisham.

Could it also be related to changing the headcodes? For example the TL Sutton rounders will be advertised as going to Sutton until they actually get to Sutton as the headcode changes there. Though I've noticed once you're past Streatham there's a message on the CIS reading "train continues to Wimbledon" or "train continues to Luton/St Albans/Wherever"

 

[Mag_seven]

GWR seemed to have abandoned the practice for HST services that take a longer route. For example the 16.30 Padd-Taunton (1C22) runs via Bristol so Taunton passengers can arrive earlier by travelling on the 17.03 Penzance. Thus the 16.30 used to be advertised as terminating at its penultimate stop i.e. Bridgwater. This no longer happens. Could this be as a result of Advance Purchase tickets for Taunton that are only valid on the 16.30 service?

 

[coppercapped]

I think the point about potential inconsistency in information provision between the CIS boards at stations and onboard is a fair one, since we are talking about mostly inexperienced travellers here, and those are who are most likely to be affected.

Unfortunately I don't know what the answer is, as I alluded to earlier, whatever is advertised will disadvantage some people.

I wonder what will be displayed at Reading when Crossrail starts operation? Two of the four stopping trains each hour will then run through Paddington to points east.

I suppose those who find difficulty in understanding departure displays and who want to go to Paddington (as distinct from somewhere else in London) will probably not take the Crossrail trains as the destination will be shown as Abbey Wood or Shenfield and the Paddington Low Level calling point will be lost in the long list of names.

This means that if the destination of the two remaining GWR operated stopping trains is shown as Paddington, rather than Ealing Broadway, only a few people each hour who can't or won't understand departure displays will find their journey is twice as long as it could have been. So that's all right then - as long as the displays match the railway enthusiast's love of order and correctness it doesn't matter if they are less than helpful.

 

[ComUtoR]

Could it also be related to changing the headcodes?

In some cases yes, pretty much that reason.

There was a thread some time ago where change of headcodes on the route was discussed and the Cannon/Cross loops came up. Consider that the unit goes in a loop but the service does not. There is a split in the service because the unit changes headocdes halfway. In some cases the final destination is Slade Green. It just restarts from there as a Cannon Street/Charing Cross in the other direction. In some cases it starts back from Crayford (headcode switch) and others Barnehurst (headcode switch)

Some of these services never change headcodes so will appear as loop services online. It does depend on where you consider the service to 'Terminate' Just because the unit goes round and round, doesn't mean the service does.

Consider this. If you are standing at Cannon Street waiting for a train. Would you need to get on a train to Cannon Street ? Advertising a Cannon Street service whilst at Cannon Street seems pretty illogical. If you got on that train and it announced; "This is the Cannon Street service" I'm pretty sure it would cause confusion. Even if it was a loop service where the headcode remained the same I doubt you would get on it to your destination.

If you wanted Sidcup. You would get on a train to Sidcup using the most direct route. I very very much doubt you would get a train to Sidcup via Slade Green. I drive these service a lot. They empty out by the end of the route. Not many travel round the loop stations.

Imagine the carnage if ever station along the route had Cannon Street/Charing Cross advertised on both the up and down platforms simultaneously. Slade Green is a bit of a pain in that sometimes it does but they all state 'via' so its less of an issue. Its also slap bang in the middle so your more looking at going somewhere intermediate than destination.

 

[LAX54]

I wonder what you think about this. Along the route between Oxford and Paddington, at major stations the stopping train to Paddington is advertised as being to Ealing Broadway, which is misleading because it continues to Paddington.

I think this is a bad policy for a number of reasons:

- if you don't know the area and you get on an 'ealing broadway' train at say Oxford, the voice announcement that this is a train to Paddington is quite jarring.

- the same train is listed as having Paddington as its destination at some stops (such as Cholsey).

- Reading has a 'next trains to London' board. I was in a rush once and was worried about accidentally getting on the slow train to London. I asked the information desk and they somewhat condescendingly told me that the slow trains are not listed as being to London.

What I don't understand is why the trains aren't listed as 'Paddington (local stopping service)', as they are in the direction towards Oxford. Would there be any major downsides to this. The current policy of (almost) lying about the final destination of the train is quite irksome to me, when I think about it.

Many just see 'Paddington' it may well say stopping train, to many that will mean absoloutely nothing, many we think 1st train that leaves the station will be the first one to arrive in London, it also stopped YOU getting on the 'wrong' train too

 

[Clansman]

I recall when I was younger that SWT Waterloo to Waterloo services would show Strawberry Hill, but upon alighting at Kingston the electronic destination boards show it as terminating at London Waterloo.

 

[TheDavibob]

Kings Cross to Cambridge slow services are displayed as Foxton on the boards at the former I believe; I'm presuming southbound it is shown as Finsbury Park or similar.

I don't think that's true these days. Kings Cross has a large "Next train to" board, and I think even the Cambridge slows are advertised to Cambridge. I'm pretty sure it's the same the other way around, too, though to be honest I'm used to blanking it out as the Cambridge fast timetable is easy to remember.

 

[northwichcat]

and also Manchester Piccadilly back to Piccadilly via Glossop and Hadfield.

Also on York to Leeds via Harrogate and many more slower routes

At least at Manchester they refer to slow trains as 'local stopping services' rather than advertise the penultimate station as the destination.

If you were from outside the local area and got told (by a person or journey planner) for Headingley/Harrogate etc. you need to catch the xx:29 from Leeds towards York and you look at the departure board and it shows xx:29 Poppleton, how would you be expected to know that it is the same train?

 

[endecotp]

How many foreign visitors know what "(Stopping service)" means?

Most of them, I would think. Especially if the others say "non-stop" or "express" or something.

"Ealing Broadway" etc is probably far more useful

If you're actually travelling to one of those smaller intermediate stations, is it more likely that you'll know that it's "on the line to Paddington but only served by stopping trains", or "it's served by trains that also serve Ealing Broadway"?

Personally, looking at the examples in this thread, there are plenty where I'd understand it better with the actual final destination shown. In particular the Farnborough example would completely confuse me, and I used to live in SWT-land; if I saw that I'd probably conclude that there was bustitution from there to Waterloo, or something!

 

[northwichcat]

How many foreign visitors know what "(Stopping service)" means?

I think they'll face much bigger problems on our railways - like not knowing what Route: VTWC+ Connections means or by buying an off-peak ticket with the B3 restriction one day and thinking the one they've purchased the next day with a B1 restriction should also be valid at 09:15.

 

[swt_passenger]

In particular the Farnborough example would completely confuse me, and I used to live in SWT-land; if I saw that I'd probably conclude that there was bustitution from there to Waterloo, or something!

To come to that conclusion you'd have to read only the top line of the platform 3 line display and manage to completely ignore the information about the second and third trains.

Or you'd have to look at the pages of future departures on one of the other displays and ignore the words London Waterloo wherever they appeared.

Straws being clutched I think.

 

[BestWestern]

Most of them, I would think. Especially if the others say "non-stop" or "express" or something.

But they don't say "non-stop" or "express" or something, do they? Does an HST/180 stopping at Slough and Paddington go on your 'Express' list or your stopping service list?

 

[didcotdean]

There is a notice in the Oxford station concourse near to the departure boards to the effect that trains indicated as Ealing Broadway continue to London Paddington.

There is more of an issue really in the other direction, as stopping trains to Oxford could be variously described short as being for Radley, Appleford, Culham, or Didcot Parkway. The last is of least use, as Didcot is as much associated with fast trains as Oxford is.

 

[MK Tom]

The sad reality is people really do need this done to help them. Whenever I have people from London visiting me in Milton Keynes I have to point-blank say ''get one going to Manchester/Birmingham/Scotland that stops at MK'', or they will get the stopper that terminates here. Happens almost every time.

 

[Parallel]

When I was in New Street a couple of weeks ago I overhead a lady asking about the train times to Birmingham International - The guy said there can be up to 6 an hour to which she said "I've looked at the boards and there's only been one in the last hour". He had to point out that this is the train's destination and many, many trains stop there on their way through.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Regular travellers are going to know the difference between types of train service; tourists aren't going to be bothered that there're not on the quickest train going somewhere. Advertising slow trains a stop short to attempt to get passengers on the best trains is the best solution. The OP obviously understands what is going on, and is therefore getting his knickers in a twist over something which doesn't affect him, and he is getting the hump on behalf of the people who might be affected but don't actually care.

 

[swt class 450]

I wonder what you think about this. Along the route between Oxford and Paddington, at major stations the stopping train to Paddington is advertised as being to Ealing Broadway, which is misleading because it continues to Paddington.

I think this is a bad policy for a number of reasons:

- if you don't know the area and you get on an 'ealing broadway' train at say Oxford, the voice announcement that this is a train to Paddington is quite jarring.

- the same train is listed as having Paddington as its destination at some stops (such as Cholsey).

- Reading has a 'next trains to London' board. I was in a rush once and was worried about accidentally getting on the slow train to London. I asked the information desk and they somewhat condescendingly told me that the slow trains are not listed as being to London.

What I don't understand is why the trains aren't listed as 'Paddington (local stopping service)', as they are in the direction towards Oxford. Would there be any major downsides to this. The current policy of (almost) lying about the final destination of the train is quite irksome to me, when I think about it.

This happens quite a lot. Another example is on the Romsey circular trains:

Trains from Salisbury to Romsey via Romsey / Southampton Central / Eastleigh are shown at Salisbury / Dean / Mottisfont & Dunbridge / Romsey as going to Chandlers Ford.

Trains from Romsey to Salisbury via Eastleigh / Southampton Central / Romsey are shown at Romsey as going to Redbridge.

I can understand this as nobody is going to need to go from Romsey to Romsey so this is quite a good idea.

However i also disagree with showing trains as going to "Ealing Broadway" or "Acton Main Line" when they are going to London Paddington or showing trains as going to "Appleford" or "Culham" or "Radley" when they are going to Oxford. This is just going to confuse people as on the paper timetables then trains are shown as going to "London Paddington" or "Oxford" but when these people turn up at the stations they are not. Even if someone is only going on a short ten or fifteen minute train ride for a few stops this could confuse them as they will be looking for a "London Paddington" or "Oxford" train.

 

[cholsey-choose]

But they don't say "non-stop" or "express" or something, do they? Does an HST/180 stopping at Slough and Paddington go on your 'Express' list or your stopping service list?

Actually funny enough at Oxford station many of the services to Paddington are do say 'express service' too.

 

[cholsey-choose]

There is a notice in the Oxford station concourse near to the departure boards to the effect that trains indicated as Ealing Broadway continue to London Paddington.

Right, I agree this is a good solution. I don't know why they don't put this at Reading too, or why the 'next trains to London' board isn't "next direct trains to London".

(It doesn't even only list the fast trains to London, because it lists the services to Waterloo too, which take about 90min.)

 

[cholsey-choose]

Are you not answering your own question?

If Reading is showing Ealing Broadway and you are wanting to avoid stopper services, then you are looking for Paddington trains that will be the fast train you want?

I must say I don't quite get what you are saying here. I understood it perfectly after the system was explained to me by the Reading staff.

But before that, I was worried that one of the 'next trains to London' on the board might be a slow one, and I was in a bit of a rush so wanted to make sure I didn't get the stopping service.

 

[cholsey-choose]

However i also disagree with showing trains as going to "Ealing Broadway" or "Acton Main Line" when they are going to London Paddington or showing trains as going to "Appleford" or "Culham" or "Radley" when they are going to Oxford. This is just going to confuse people as on the paper timetables then trains are shown as going to "London Paddington" or "Oxford" but when these people turn up at the stations they are not. Even if someone is only going on a short ten or fifteen minute train ride for a few stops this could confuse them as they will be looking for a "London Paddington" or "Oxford" train.

Is it done in the Oxford direction? I see a lot of the stopping ones towards Oxford listed as 'Oxford (local stopping service)' certainly at Reading.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Perhaps trains shouldn't be advertised with a destination at all - just the time and a list of stations it calls at. A separate 'fastest' trains board can operate in conjunction with it.

 

[Andyh82]

Now we've got more advanced PIS that can show extra info and have the complications of online journey planners and the like, maybe it's better to show the actual destination but with a qualifier like "Local Stopping Service" or "via Xxx" if it's a slower longer route.

These days if you want to go from Leeds to Harrogate you get journey planners telling you to catch the train to York but the train doesn't exist, instead there is a train to Poppleton. Or you go for the Poppleton train but in the platform sits a train to York, which the customer might think is a different train.

The Watford example mentioned a few pages ago also happens in Huddersfield where people who aren't regulars and are going to Leeds will catch the Leeds train, I.e the stopper that terminates at Leeds, they won't look at the calling point lists of all the express services as they don't go to Leeds, they go to York or Hull etc.

 

[northwichcat]

There used to be a poster in the underpass at Huddersfield which said something like Travelling to Leeds? Catch the next service to Newcastle, Middlesbrough, York, Scarborough or Hull.

I lived in West Yorkshire for 3 years and I would have had no idea which line Poppleton was on during the time I lived there. I would have presumed it was a small station only a few miles out of Leeds if I'd seen it on a departure display, not a village just outside York, as that would be a stupid place to terminate a train service leaving Leeds.

 

[JamesRowden]

At 11:48 (this Monday) a stopper and an express depart Reading for Paddington simultaneously. On a journey planner the stopper will be advertised as going to London Paddington.

Regular travellers are going to know the difference between types of train service; tourists aren't going to be bothered that there're not on the quickest train going somewhere. Advertising slow trains a stop short to attempt to get passengers on the best trains is the best solution. The OP obviously understands what is going on, and is therefore getting his knickers in a twist over something which doesn't affect him, and he is getting the hump on behalf of the people who might be affected but don't actually care.

What about advertising the destination of the stopper as `London Paddington (OBAS)' with at the bottom of the board: `OBAS = Overtaken by Another Service'.