Trains being held up stations due to passengers not paying for tickets!

[poshbakerloo]

Trains being held up stations due to passengers not paying for tickets!

I normal 30min commute from Manchester Oxford Road to Prestbury has today taken me just over 2hrs!

This was just due to a group of guys in the EMT service to Norwich not buying tickets, the train would leave until they bought one!

This meant that I missed my connection at Stockport, meaning I had to wait an hour there in the rain!

Is there anything else that could have been done...? Why couldn't they just kick them guys out n have the station staff deal with it?

 

[yorkie]

I very much doubt a train would be held for a long time at Manchester Oxford Road or Piccadilly for that reason. If it was held at Oxford Road, you could get a train from another platform as there are 4 platforms. There's no way they'd stop everything at Piccadilly for that, and an inspection would not take place until after Piccadilly. If it happened at Stockport, then I don't see how you missed your connection either.

Write to the TOC asking for a refund. In the Passengers Charter you may not be covered as it may be considered not under the TOCs control (if waiting for BTP), however under the new Delay Repay schemes you are covered. Not sure what Northern's policy is, but write in anyway giving full details of your journey.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

This was just due to a group of guys in the EMT service to Norwich not buying tickets, the train would leave until they bought one!

Eh?

That might just be what was announced to passengers, possibly to avoid raising levels of anxiety or distress; but it beggars belief that any train crew would delay their own service for a revenue issue.

Do you have a confirming source for this story? From whom?
I am aware of a large number of reasons for holding a service at a station, but that isn't one.

 

[Dai.]

I had this problem once,

Two lads refused to buy a ticket whilst on the train so we got stopped at Birmingham New Street at there was a good 10 minute wait, but that was just because the two lads had found a toilet or cupboard somewhere along the train and tried to hide from the Police.

 

[323235]

Where did the incident occur? Where was the train held?
Did the guard keep the doors locked?
Was it the 1639 (9 Mins late leaving Stockport) 1739 (4 late) or the 1839 off Occy Road (6 late leaving Stockport) ?

These were the only trains where there was a significant delay and where they sat at Oxford Road,Piccadilly or Stockport for any length of time and would have meant anyone travelling on them missing the xx58 to Stoke.

Although as they tend to hold any traffic waiting to arrive into Platform 1 at Stockport for at least a minute or two, while there's a train occupying Platform 0 (which EMT use), I would say it wasn't the 1639 or 1739, this being because the 1658 and 1758 use Platform 1 instead of 2 because of the two xx58 Chester services which operate in the evening peak.

 

[First class]

The Liverpool-Norwich line had a reasonable day today actually, with no delays of more than 15 minutes.

1R98 14:57 Norwich-Liverpool must have been diverted because it was cancelled at Stockport, but still called at Manchester Pic and eventually arrived Liverpool 4 minutes early.

Actually, the diversions remained in place until the last train, i.e. no EMT services from Stockport TOWARDS Liverpool actually called there.

Therefore there were no trains from Norwich to Stockport between 14:57 and 21:20.

Going TOWARDS Norwich, the only really delayed train was the last service of the day going to Nottingham. It passed Deansgate 12 minutes late, therefore nothing to do what happened on board, as it was late arriving into Manchester in the first place. It departed Stockport 17 minutes late, but as mentioned previously, it was already late before it even stopped in Greater Manchester.

No guard/conductor would ever hold a train for that long just because of tickets anyway. The financial penalty to the TOC through PPM failures would be far too great. The BTP would usually just join the train later on through the journey.

The OP seems to have got the wrong end of the stick somewhere- there's nothing there that would trigger a refund- as nothing deserving of a refund has occurred, and that has been checked and verified using the same staff databases and systems as EMT Customer Services would check...

 

[ukrob]

I normal 30min commute from Manchester Oxford Road to Prestbury has today taken me just over 2hrs!

This was just due to a group of guys in the EMT service to Norwich not buying tickets, the train would leave until they bought one!

Total garbage.

 

[yorkie]

There was no evidence of any significant delays yesterday on the route in question, and there are (and indeed were) plenty of trains for the short hop (easy walking distance) from Oxford Road to Piccadilly, where the train from Prestbury goes from. No evidence of any delays on trains to Prestbury or Norwich (except the very last train as posted by First Class which isn't relevant here anyway).

Do EMT check tickets between Manchester Picc and Stockport anyway? and the train isn't going to wait in the middle of nowhere. If it waited at Stockport then there is no issue as the OP was changing there anyway.

Poshbakerloo - you are getting a reputation for making dubious posts. Can you back up your claims?

 

[HSTfan!!!]

Is there anything else that could have been done...? Why couldn't they just kick them guys out n have the station staff deal with it?

as if we haven't got enough **** to deal with? and in practice we do end up dealing with this because the BTP are at the chip shop again.

 

[ashworth]

This probably is a rather dubious post but I did miss a connection last summer when a train was held for a a few minutes whilst the conductor was trying to get someone to leave the train who hadn't paid.

I was on a local Northern (Hope Valley) service between Manchester and Sheffield one saturday evening when someone boarded at Edale without a valid ticket and refused to pay. The train was held up at the next station (Hope) for no more than 5 minutes but he refused to leave the train. The conductor rang to request the police to meet the train at Sheffield where we waited for a further 3 or 4 minutes before the doors were opened. By then I had missed my connection to Chesterfield, but fortunately there was another one in 30 minutes.

However, there was an elderly couple on the train who were travelling with Derbyshire Wayfarer tickets and were wanting to get to Langley Mill. Their next train was not for another 90 minutes - not nice for an elderly couple stuck on Sheffield station on a Saturday evening.

I advised them to go and seek assistance from station staff. Whether they did so or had any luck with using a Derbyshire Wayfarer I don't know.
I know I was annoyed that a whole train full of passengers were delayed and I missed my connection just for one person who was refusing to pay.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Yeah, and I think your dissapointment at the time would have been quite understandable. Train crew would have made a balanced decision, and regrettably a few passengers would have been inconvenienced - perhaps the biggest inconvenience is simply the uncertainty - not knowing how long a delay will last.

But the OP's implied claim that a 30 min journey was extended to 2hrs is NOT consistent with a delay deliberately introduced over a revenue matter - a delay for BTP is slightly different. Hyperbole?

 

[323235]

Do EMT check tickets between Manchester Picc and Stockport anyway?

In my experience, EMT are very good at checking tickets on Liverpool-Norwich.

 

[Lampshade]

The Stoke-On-Trent? service departs Piccadilly at xx:48 IIRC and is a very tight connection if coming in off the EMT service, maybe the TPE service a few minutes earlier would have been a safer option - or even walk to Piccadilly, it's really not that long a walk, ten minutes at most.

 

[323235]

yeh it's a tight connection i've lost out on, on a few occassions.

I've even been at Piccadilly sometimes and when its got to xx43 and the EMT isn't in sight have made a brisk exit from the platform to catch the Stoke Womble.

I usually get an earlier train off Oxford Road if I want to guarantee i will be on the service.

It seems to me from my own experiences, that you took a gamble and lost out.

 

[sheff1]

No guard/conductor would ever hold a train for that long just because of tickets anyway.

That may well be the case nowadays but I have had personal experience of such a hold - can't state the exact date but it was mid/late 1990's as GNER had started operating. I was travelling from Wakefield back to Sheffield but wanted to stop off in Mexborough to visit the Concertina Club home brewery. My chosen train was the local Leeds - Doncaster around 2015/30ish from Westgate changing at Doncaster.

A group of about 15/20 late teens boarded travelling, it transpired, to South Elmsall. I deliberately chose a different carriage but, when it became clear the train wasn't leaving, looked out to see people running in and out of doors in the front coach. I walked down the platform and met a GNER person who explained that the guard was refusing to let the train move until he had collected all the fares - some of the youths were paying but others were moving around to try and avoid him. I asked when it was likely to be sorted in view of my rapidly diminishing connection time - he didn't know, but was less than pleased as other trains were stacking up waiting for the platform. When the train was still there 15 mins after departure time my connection was basically lost so I was forced to travel direct to Sheffield on a following train. The Doncaster stopper must have been 20 mins plus late by the time it left. No idea whether all fares were collected.

 

[yorkie]

yeh it's a tight connection i've lost out on, on a few occassions.
.

Is it a valid connection? If not, the OP can have no complaints...

 

[323235]

EMT is due in at xx53
Stoke is booked in at xx57 (usually arrives at 55 if it uses the Fast line all the way from Picc/Ardwick), goes out at xx58.

The minimum connection time for Stockport is 5 minutes.

 

[yorkie]

Well in that case I don't see how PoshBakerloo can possibly have a valid complaint at all. There were no significant delays and not making an unofficial connection is just a risk you take when going for such connections.

 

[jon0844]

I've had a train held up before because of someone not having a ticket, but the situation was quite different; the person had jumped a gateline, been chased by an RPI and then told that the train would not leave until he got off.

In the end, the driver asked over the PA system if there was a police officer on board - which there was (off duty) and he was pulled from the train with a bit of a struggle. The actual delay was surprisingly short, maybe 3-4 minutes at most!

Despite the potential delays, it sent out a very positive image that would hopefully serve as a deterrent, especially the modern-day evader that likes to laugh in the face of authority and say 'and what are you going to do about it?'.

 

[tony_mac]

Well in that case I don't see how PoshBakerloo can possibly have a valid complaint at all. There were no significant delays and not making an unofficial connection is just a risk you take when going for such connections.

It is a valid connection and it is the journey that National Rail suggests.
A couple of minutes late at Stockport, a missed connection, and the following train being late could easily add up to a 90 minute delay.

Anyway, if it's worth the hassle, make a claim from East Midlands Trains and they should refund the cost of that leg of the journey (according to their Passengers charter).

 

[yorkie]

Just checked and yes it is a booked connection, 53 to 58. I initially read the above post as 53 to 57 I see 57 is the arrival time. Tight, but valid - just! So yes it is a valid complaint and he can send in a claim, if deemed worthwhile. But not sure it really warrants the rant.