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Trains not held at signals?

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Nym

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this fellow would disagree with you about the effects of a dirty bomb...

He's talking about radiation problems, and since he is at oxford has clearly never seen somone suffer from the likes of heavy metal poisoning, either the long term mental effects, seeing their skin peel off their shoulders every time it's sunny, as you're trying to comfort them sobbing as you have to steralise the boils that form where the skin has peeled thanks to an ingress of heavy alpha emitters in the fat layer.

You may notice I didn't mention radiation, I mentioned heavy metal poisioning, this is very very very different, the overall result is a form of 'radiation sickness' but until you've seen the results of this, like I have had to deal with, weather you're writing a book at oxford or not, butt out!

Not meaning to be rude to anyone on here, but like I said, HM is different to radiation.

Most of the radiation from the tanks at sellafeild going straight through you, high frequency gamma rays, where as if you end up swallowing or ingesting heavy metals, or having them ingress through your skin, they tend to like sticking to your cellular structure, and said metal is an alpha emittor then you're in more trouble, alpha particles are very heavy and powerful, but can't travel far until they crash into somthing and damage it, having these emit into your cells changes the energy levels and the structure of your DNA, and if present in your bloodstream from sticking into your heamoglobin *sp, cause a great deal of damage to your brain cells.

So yes, the radiation might not be that much of a problem, until you ingest the radioative meterials, if he doesn't think it's that bad, I invite him to swallow some radioactive iodine and then come back to me in two years and say he's fine.

And as a last reminder, I don't think this can happen, I have seen it happen, I've been there in lead impregnated gloves cleaning out somone's sores.
 
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Jonny

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OK, Just to fuel both arguments here, it's kinda fun...

If the nuclear meterial was somhow stolen by using TWPS loops, massive cranes and an HGV on standby, then use of it as a weapon wouldn't require it to be Weapons grade plutonium or uranium 235/238, simply being a heavy metal and alpha emitter is enough to scare the hell out of me if it was in the wrong hands, mix it in with a fertiliser bomb and park a truck load of it on Oxford Street and I assure you it would cause damage, not because of a nuclear explosion, but because of being a 'dirty bomb' it would cause massive parts of wherever it was detonated to be rendedered unenhabitable for decades, and in the immdiate case, all 1st responders and persons in the local area dieing a very slow and painful death over the next 24 to 48 hours, with reigonal implications of increased cancer and lucimia for the next 100 years, and continuing deaths due to exposure for the following 10 years.

I can also assure you that when it is things being transported for the AWE that if anyone did try to get hold of them, they wouldn't be alive for long, and even if they did overwhelm the guards, that they wouldn't get very far. You'd need a lot of orginisation and equipment to knock off either an AWE or Flask train, and such levels or orginisation wouldn't go un-noticed by either the annulus building or Thames House.


Also, TPWS loops aren't hard to "fake" since the functional specifications are fully known (see Wikipedia) and are easy to reproduce with relatively basic electronic knowledge and components; they need not even be by the trackside!!!
 

Hydro

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Take you longer than ten minutes to figure out what to do with the stopped flask train though! ;)
 

Nym

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I know exactly what I'd do if I wanted at what was inside it, but I'm not going to broadcast this on a public forum, and yes, it would take longer than 10 mins...
 

YorkshireBear

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So if any nuclear flask trains get ambushed we know who to ask first eh Nym?

Its all ifs buts and maybes. After passing several very large IFs you reach a conclusion where they are dangerous, while i completly agree that if all these IFs are passed the concequences will be what you describe, chances of them IFs being passed doesn't make me loose sleep at night :) Not saying you should say i should worry just making my opinion.

I hope no one tries what we have discussed here or surely we could go to prison for helping a criminal.... :D
 

Surreytraveller

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The Royal Train operates as the Royal Train as long as any member of the Royal Family is aboard. It is only signalled and runs as a Royal Train (1X01) however when the Queen is actaully travelling on board.

As has been mentioned the movement is tightly controlled under signed for "need to know" numbered notices. In my day these were also collected back after use and in between were to be kept under lock and key at work by the holder.

When She used to travel to Tattenham Corner on Derby Day by train, the half-hour gap in both directions in the otherwise 10-minute frequency was a bit of a giveaway!
 

O L Leigh

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Also, TPWS loops aren't hard to "fake" since the functional specifications are fully known (see Wikipedia) and are easy to reproduce with relatively basic electronic knowledge and components; they need not even be by the trackside!!!

Mind you, it wouldn't take a driver and signaller very long to agree that a spurious TPWS activation was nothing to worry about and for the train to be on it's way again long before you'd have any chance of doing anything with the flask.

But it is amusing to see you all discussing it.

O L Leigh
 

andypops

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Not to intentionally go off topic, but I would like to fix a bit of incorrect / ignorant / scaremongering twaddle.

Most of the radiation from the tanks at sellafeild going straight through you, high frequency gamma rays

Gamma rays will pass through most things. Rule of thumb is 1 metre of lead, or 12m concrete with rebar support to stop it.
But very little damage is caused to anything, since gamma rays are a form of electromagnetic energy in the same frequency band as X-rays. Yes, they might be a little bit of risk that they may do a bit of damage, but aren't even as bad as high-freq UV. Do you really worry about taking an X-ray at hospital? Of course not. For this reason.

This is because, (without getting into the wave-particle duality argument) the size of a gamma particle relative to the atom it "hits" means it is about as likely to collide with the nucleus as I am to win the lottery, pools and a ten-line accumulator every week for the rest of my life. Further reading - Rutherford's observations on the structure of the atom.

NB these particles are high frequency by definition. The electromagnetic (EM) spectrum is commonly referred to by energy, but this is of course a function of frequency:
E = cv, where E = energy, c = speed of light in the material being studied (i.e. Usually assumed as a vacuum) and v is the frequency. Frequency and energy are propertional.

if you end up swallowing or ingesting heavy metals, or having them ingress through your skin, they tend to like sticking to your cellular structure, and said metal is an alpha emittor then you're in more trouble, alpha particles are very heavy and powerful, but can't travel far until they crash into somthing and damage it

I'm sorry, but it tends not to be the fact that heavy metals prefer to stick to any part of your cellular structure that is the issue. It is simply the fact that once within the body / cell, they are stuck, as they are too big to get out again.

But, just for jokes, I would like to demolish this "sticking" nonsense:

Firstly, how would a heavier atom be recognised by any tissue / intracellular assembly / enzyme / protein as being heavier?
The classic way of determining this would be by studying the secondary Kinetic Isotope Effect (KIE) of the metal as a cofactor within the tissue / membrane / protein of choice. And I guarantee that the overall effect of this would be bog-all. Primary (i.e. hydrogen vs deuterium, a change of 100% mass) KIE's are typically around 7 - i.e. 50% enhanced - compared to hydrogen-hydrogen studies. This is irrespective of protein within either eukaryotic or prokaryotic species. Secondary (13C, 15N, 18O, heavy metal etc) KIEs are much less than 7 (usually less the 1, and its a logarithmic scale), as the effect of a "heavy" metal over a "native" metal is very little, usually less than 1% of the total mass. So, in essence the cell hardly recognises a difference in the mass of the heavy atom over the light atom, when the isotopic mass difference is so small. And therefore there's nothing that makes it "sticky" to cells.

Secondly, take the example of radiocarbon dating. The process involves measuring the concentration of 14C in tissue, and then as the half-life of 14C is well known, we are able to determine - based upon the assumed concentration of 14C available at the time, which is relative to the natural abundance of the isotope - the amount of 14C which has decayed since last cellular uptake - i.e. Death.
If we know how much has been lost, and we know the half-life, then we can work out how long ago something was alive.
Can you imagine how this would work, if the "heavy atom" was to "stick" preferentially to the tissue? We, and all creatures, would become enriched with 14C, and while this might make some NMR/MRI experiments / scans a little more interesting, it would mean we couldn't radiocarbon-date. And that our cells would be made of a material which would decay. Which might not be conducive to long lifetimes.

So, there we go. A theoretical and exemplary approach to why heavy atoms don't "tend to stick to your cellular structure".

alpha particles are very heavy and powerful, but can't travel far until they crash into somthing and damage it, having these emit into your cells changes the energy levels and the structure of your DNA

Alpha particles are indeed "heavy", when compared to (essentially) mass-less gamma rays. But with an atomic mass of 4 (i.e. a Helium nucleus) they weigh sod-all compared to, say, a small section of DNA.

Their main damaging effects come from the inertia of the particles during collisions with intracellular matter. As most of this is water and protein, the chance of important stuff being damaged is still quite low. However, inevitably some collisions with DNA occur, and these are the primary problems. These tend to lead to mis-forming, incorrect annealing of the DNA, ionisation of the base pairs, incorrect hydrogen-bonding, random deletions - to name but a few problems. The cell actually has a brilliant way of dealing with these problems - called apoptosis. And this stops all of the problems continuing. However, occasionally for other reasons the apoptotic pathways are stopped , and this is where the secondary effects (i.e. cancers, tumours, boils etc come in.

My point with all of this is that the structure of DNA is not "altered" by the magic alpha particles being in the vicinity. They are altered by a physical collision with the alpha particle.

And I will not get started on the "changing energy levels" bullshoi. But rest assured, alpha particles don't change lightbulbs, clothes, bedsheets or the energy levels of DNA. That is such a crazy proposition as to force my hand to my mouth.

if present in your bloodstream from sticking into your heamoglobin *sp, cause a great deal of damage to your brain cells.

My answer to this - seriously?
1) Would a metal, a heavy, radioactive metal be transported across the brain-blood barrier? Or stay near there long enough to cause enough non-spontaneous damage as to be a health concern? Highly suspect. Neurological problems may result from certain isotopes might occur, but for the vast majority of cases, the neurological complications will be secondary or tertiary problems. Although they'll likely be the problems upon which the underlying cause is determined.

2) Things which stick to haemoglobin stick to it due to the iron ligand which is chelated via the porphyrin haem. These actually stick to the iron atom by displacing what would usually bind there - molecular oxygen. They tend to bind with such high affinity that the haemoglobin may no longer be used to transport dioxygen, and the patient will soon die. The most well known of these compounds are carbon monoxide (CO) and cyanide (-CN) . These stick to the iron of haem due to electronic effects - there is a strong dipole with both of these. Metals, especially heavy-isotope-emitting ones, will not suddenly decide to rewrite science and "stick" to haem. No, no, no, no, no.

Cobalt can, if messed around with enough, bind to some porphorins (example being vitamin B12, cobalamin, via a similar equatorial tetrapyrrole arrangement as haem). But I can't think of any examples where it displaces the iron of haem. My best guess, is that you don't know either, and made up your post to sound clever?


Which brings me to my summary.
1) Most of your arguments are wrong
2) Most of you information is wrong
3) I also understand more than most the horrendous effects of heavy metal and radiation poisoning. However, it does no good to make assumptions, and hope that nobody will question them.

You might just find that someone reading these forums is someone with a degree in biology, a doctorate in chemistry and is employed at a university as a research fellow in molecular biology, looking at the effects of metal cofactors on intra-and extra-cellular processes?

All the best.
 

SS4

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andypops:855710 said:
E = cv, where E = energy, c = speed of light in the material being studied (i.e. Usually assumed as a vacuum) and v is the frequency. Frequency and energy are propertional

My apologies if I come across as pedantic but isn't E=hv where h is the Planck constant?

After all assuming a vacuum a photon of red light (~750nm) would have an energy of c^2*10^9/750 J which is quite a lot lol.
 

andypops

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My apologies if I come across as pedantic but isn't E=hv where h is the Planck constant?

After all assuming a vacuum a photon of red light (~750nm) would have an energy of c^2*10^9/750 J which is quite a lot lol.

You're absolutely right. E = hc / lambda, which is equal to hv. My mistake. I'm blaming that one on sleepiness!

Still, a d'oh moment
 
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What a post though lol!!! I remember travelling back from Stratford-on-Avon with my brother-in-laws brother, and his girlfriend, trying to explain to her Quantum Physics, "how can it be a particle AND a wave lol"... then you have the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, and poor old Schrodinger's Cat!
 

Nym

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Not to intentionally go off topic, but I would like to fix a bit of incorrect / ignorant / scaremongering twaddle.



Gamma rays will pass through most things. Rule of thumb is 1 metre of lead, or 12m concrete with rebar support to stop it.
But very little damage is caused to anything, since gamma rays are a form of electromagnetic energy in the same frequency band as X-rays. Yes, they might be a little bit of risk that they may do a bit of damage, but aren't even as bad as high-freq UV. Do you really worry about taking an X-ray at hospital? Of course not. For this reason.

This is because, (without getting into the wave-particle duality argument) the size of a gamma particle relative to the atom it "hits" means it is about as likely to collide with the nucleus as I am to win the lottery, pools and a ten-line accumulator every week for the rest of my life. Further reading - Rutherford's observations on the structure of the atom.

NB these particles are high frequency by definition. The electromagnetic (EM) spectrum is commonly referred to by energy, but this is of course a function of frequency:
E = cv, where E = energy, c = speed of light in the material being studied (i.e. Usually assumed as a vacuum) and v is the frequency. Frequency and energy are propertional.
Thats the point I was trying to make about gamma rays, maybe you didn't understand my syntax correctly
I'm sorry, but it tends not to be the fact that heavy metals prefer to stick to any part of your cellular structure that is the issue. It is simply the fact that once within the body / cell, they are stuck, as they are too big to get out again.

But, just for jokes, I would like to demolish this "sticking" nonsense:

Firstly, how would a heavier atom be recognised by any tissue / intracellular assembly / enzyme / protein as being heavier?
The classic way of determining this would be by studying the secondary Kinetic Isotope Effect (KIE) of the metal as a cofactor within the tissue / membrane / protein of choice. And I guarantee that the overall effect of this would be bog-all. Primary (i.e. hydrogen vs deuterium, a change of 100% mass) KIE's are typically around 7 - i.e. 50% enhanced - compared to hydrogen-hydrogen studies. This is irrespective of protein within either eukaryotic or prokaryotic species. Secondary (13C, 15N, 18O, heavy metal etc) KIEs are much less than 7 (usually less the 1, and its a logarithmic scale), as the effect of a "heavy" metal over a "native" metal is very little, usually less than 1% of the total mass. So, in essence the cell hardly recognises a difference in the mass of the heavy atom over the light atom, when the isotopic mass difference is so small. And therefore there's nothing that makes it "sticky" to cells.

Secondly, take the example of radiocarbon dating. The process involves measuring the concentration of 14C in tissue, and then as the half-life of 14C is well known, we are able to determine - based upon the assumed concentration of 14C available at the time, which is relative to the natural abundance of the isotope - the amount of 14C which has decayed since last cellular uptake - i.e. Death.
If we know how much has been lost, and we know the half-life, then we can work out how long ago something was alive.
Can you imagine how this would work, if the "heavy atom" was to "stick" preferentially to the tissue? We, and all creatures, would become enriched with 14C, and while this might make some NMR/MRI experiments / scans a little more interesting, it would mean we couldn't radiocarbon-date. And that our cells would be made of a material which would decay. Which might not be conducive to long lifetimes.

So, there we go. A theoretical and exemplary approach to why heavy atoms don't "tend to stick to your cellular structure".
Again, i'm writing to a non specialist audience, but I'm coming at this from an CBRN/NBC and medical background so you'll have to excuse the archaic terms, but nowhere do you say that heavy metals can leave your cellular sturcture ever, and in fact you're agreeing with me. Where your cellular structure is the human body.

And I know what alpha particles do to cells, you really think I didn't know the mechagnism *sp that is used for them to damage tissue and DNA?
 

Nym

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I thought you were a systems/mech/electrical engineer?

I am, but i'm formally of the RLC/REME (Royal Logistic Corps / Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers) and did specialist training in NBC/CBRN Nuclear Bio Chem / Chem Bio Rad Nuc. Effects and countermeasures, inc. The RLC's job with dirty devices

PS for ol leigh, all i'd need is for the unit to stop where i wanted, take out the driver and i'd have a decent amount of time before any 1st responders turn up.
 
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