Trains that currently run ECS that may be useful services

[Starmill]

Inspired by the 0334 Chester to Manchester Airport service that has just departed - (before I've gone to bed ;P) that appears to be run simply as an empty to get it to the Airport for ATW's ultra-early morning path from there out to North Wales - which runs in passenger service presumably because it carries a Chester driver and guard and the unit, a 175, is based there. So running the service costs ATW almost nothing marginally, and they might get some revenue if anyone is ever on it - although I do have to wonder if anyone ever is onboard, given it doesn't stop anywhere, not even Stockport. There might be Piccadilly - Airport custom, of course, although there is a service only a few minutes before from Liverpool (today that's bustiuted though).

So are there any other cases of a train and a crew riding around on a 'positioning move' that might have prospective passengers? The 0354 Nottingham to Liverpool goes further and departs later than the Chester service, so it might sound like a more useful candidate. Unfortunately it couldn't serve Sheffield without taking a lot more time, and thusly having to leave Nottingham earlier, which might cost EMT more for almost no gain. But assuming it already carries a driver and a guard it could still operate as a train for Piccadilly - Liverpool. If there might be someone who wants to go from Chester to Manchester at 0334, there is probably a similar chance someone wants to go there from Nottingham at 0356!

Of course, they aren't necessarily practical in all cases and there may be a very good reason why they are empty at present, interesting comparison nonetheless.

 

[bigdelboy]

The early morning 6am from(ish) from guildford to newcastle generally is ecs from eastleigh via havant and would provide a great early morning opportunity if it stopped at fareham / havant / petersfield ... as everything else at the time is a (very) slow stopper. (It might also give a realistic earlier start towards Brum from havant) . The same on the return. However I suppose not stopping it allows for engineering work diversions or provisioning from elsewhere and allows crew to get to/from home quicker.

 

[glbotu]

Inspired by the 0334 Chester to Manchester Airport service that has just departed - (before I've gone to bed ;P) that appears to be run simply as an empty to get it to the Airport for ATW's ultra-early morning path from there out to North Wales - which runs in passenger service presumably because it carries a Chester driver and guard and the unit, a 175, is based there. So running the service costs ATW almost nothing marginally, and they might get some revenue if anyone is ever on it - although I do have to wonder if anyone ever is onboard, given it doesn't stop anywhere, not even Stockport. There might be Piccadilly - Airport custom, of course, although there is a service only a few minutes before from Liverpool (today that's bustiuted though).

So, there's a small, but extant cost of stopping a train. It was worked out somewhere once (maybe £7 /stop or something). It's the extra fuel cost of having to stop, open doors, close doors and accelerate or something. As such, if over the lifetime of the service, it's worth doing, then they'll do it. (eg: Say over a 5 day week, the train brings in £60 of revenue, for one stop, assuming there's already a guard etc, then that's an extra £25 revenue they otherwise wouldn't have gotten).

So are there any other cases of a train and a crew riding around on a 'positioning move' that might have prospective passengers? The 0354 Nottingham to Liverpool goes further and departs later than the Chester service, so it might sound like a more useful candidate. Unfortunately it couldn't serve Sheffield without taking a lot more time, and thusly having to leave Nottingham earlier, which might cost EMT more for almost no gain. But assuming it already carries a driver and a guard it could still operate as a train for Piccadilly - Liverpool. If there might be someone who wants to go from Chester to Manchester at 0334, there is probably a similar chance someone wants to go there from Nottingham at 0356!

Of course, they aren't necessarily practical in all cases and there may be a very good reason why they are empty at present, interesting comparison nonetheless.

I mean, there are loads of smaller examples.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L85302/2014/12/03/advanced

5H20 here comes from 2H42 Liverpool Street - Ely and becomes 2H20 Cambridge - Ely. It certainly has a little padding around it, so could probably run in revenue service, with a call at Waterbeach. However there aren't the passengers there to pick up. All the Ely - Cambridge passengers are picked up by 2K85 (Norwich - Cambridge), 1T11 (Downham Mkt - King's Cross) or the later 1L46 (Birmingham - Stanstead) and Waterbeach just doesn't warrant the extra train.

I reckon it's the same for 5M06 there. They just wouldn't make the money back if they stopped it anywhere. Also, if anyone in the know is around, just wondering if there's a crew depot at Liverpool Lime St for EMT, or whether they have to shove a poor guard onto this ECS service?

 

[carriageline]

Don't TOCs have to pay to stop at stations? Or is that only stations not run by them?


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[berneyarms]

There could be additional costs in opening up some of the stations earlier too?

Surely that first train from Chester to Manchester Airport also allows anyone from Chester flying out on a first flight from Manchester to get there in time.

 

[455driver]

The early morning 6am from(ish) from guildford to newcastle generally is ecs from eastleigh via havant and would provide a great early morning opportunity if it stopped at fareham / havant / petersfield ... as everything else at the time is a (very) slow stopper. (It might also give a realistic earlier start towards Brum from havant) . The same on the return. However I suppose not stopping it allows for engineering work diversions or provisioning from elsewhere and allows crew to get to/from home quicker.

Everything to do with engineering closures and nothing to do with the crew getting home earlier! :roll:

The TM is based at Reading and catches a service train to Guildford to start service, so how are you going to get him to Eastleigh?

The morning ECS sometimes runs via Basingstoke and Reading (it sometimes starts from Reading ECS as well) when the direct is closed so if it was a passenger train XC would have to put on buses!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also, if anyone in the know is around, just wondering if there's a crew depot at Liverpool Lime St for EMT, or whether they have to shove a poor guard onto this ECS service?

No EMT traincrew at Liverpool, hence the long ECS move with 2x158s and 2 crews.

 

[Aictos]

At the moment on Saturday nights, once the 00:09 has left, the next service northwards is 01:37 - now if instead of terminating the 00:40 and running it ECS to depot it be nice if it continued to Stevenage and came out of service there.

I believe this is what FCC did with the 08:49 terminator, they simply extended it to Stevenage as a passenger service.

 

[wensley]

The rear cars of 1M76 Newcastle - Birmingham New St SX. Normally 220 + 221 with the rear five cars locked OOU - effectively a passenger and ECS service sharing a path!

The train is normally very busy York - Doncaster - Sheffield and using the dead set being transited on the rear would be rather helpful subject to staffing arrangements!

 

[D6975]

Don't TOCs have to pay to stop at stations? Or is that only stations not run by them?


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It certainly used to be the case. Track access charges were not the only cost of running a service, a fee for each stop used to be payable as well.

I suspect it is still the case as some of the inbound services on my local Severn Beach line don't stop at Lawrence Hill if there's an inbound Gloucester stopper behind them, passengers have to change at Stapleton Rd for LH.

 

[northwichcat]

Inspired by the 0334 Chester to Manchester Airport service that has just departed - (before I've gone to bed ;P) that appears to be run simply as an empty to get it to the Airport for ATW's ultra-early morning path from there out to North Wales - which runs in passenger service presumably because it carries a Chester driver and guard and the unit, a 175, is based there. So running the service costs ATW almost nothing marginally, and they might get some revenue if anyone is ever on it - although I do have to wonder if anyone ever is onboard, given it doesn't stop anywhere, not even Stockport. There might be Piccadilly - Airport custom, of course, although there is a service only a few minutes before from Liverpool (today that's bustiuted though).

I've suggested to ATW that if that train stopped at Knutsford, Altrincham and Stockport there would be minimum time penalty and it would also allow a service to the Airport for people wanting to catch early flights (which depart at 6am) or to get to Stockport for an early London service. There is a considerable market for London travel from the Knutsford and Altrincham areas but a number of people railhead, which earlier and better rail connections would help solve.

 

[PHILIPE]

I've suggested to ATW that if that train stopped at Knutsford, Altrincham and Stockport there would be minimum time penalty and it would also allow a service to the Airport for people wanting to catch early flights (which depart at 6am) or to get to Stockport for an early London service. There is a considerable market for London travel from the Knutsford and Altrincham areas but a number of people railhead, which earlier and better rail connections would help solve.

Doesn't it depend on Track Access Rights to call at these stations.

 

[route:oxford]

From memory, there is enough time for an early Virgin service from Edinburgh to Birmingham to run as far North as Stirling/Dunblane (from the depot in Glasgow) and back to Edinburgh in the time it is diagrammed to run the "long way" from Glasgow to Edinburgh.

 

[455driver]

From memory, there is enough time for an early Virgin service from Edinburgh to Birmingham to run as far North as Stirling/Dunblane (from the depot in Glasgow) and back to Edinburgh in the time it is diagrammed to run the "long way" from Glasgow to Edinburgh.

Is that a route retainer trip though?
A lot of ECSs go odd routes so the crews can maintain route knowledge, if they didnt have these trips then special trains would have to run so they could retain the RK!

 

[northwichcat]

Doesn't it depend on Track Access Rights to call at these stations.

They have calling rights at Stockport and I wouldn't imagine obtaining the right to stop that train at Knutsford or Altrincham should cause issues - both have very high usage compared to the number of services and there isn't a Northern service for another 2 hours after that one passes through.

 

[philjo]

FCC introduced some afternoon using some of the trains that previously ran ECS from Welwyn Garden City sidings into London prior to the evening peak as additional semi-fast service trains from WGC to Kings Cross which helped to reduce crowding on the other trains in to London around that time.

 

[Searle]

The Neville Hill - Lincoln ECS service via Leeds would be a nice additional morning service. They're putting it on for the Christmas Market, but I'm not sure if it'd be that busy even if it was implemented (especially with the huge wait time outside of Lincoln)

 

[LowLevel]

I reckon it's the same for 5M06 there. They just wouldn't make the money back if they stopped it anywhere. Also, if anyone in the know is around, just wondering if there's a crew depot at Liverpool Lime St for EMT, or whether they have to shove a poor guard onto this ECS service?

It also follows a stopper down the Chat Moss and is subject to regular retiming and diversion so would be a nightmare as a passenger train.

 

[swt_passenger]

SWT have 'warmed up'a few ECS moves over the last couple of years, it is why there's now an afternoon departure from Fareham to Waterloo that runs via Havant, and an evening train from Waterloo that terminated at Havant was extended in service through to Southampton.

IIRC the unusual thing about the first of those two is that it ran from Northam depot via Southampton Central, to pick up the guard. So it was passing through Fareham as ECS with a guard on board, so not much needed doing to make it a passenger service...

Another fairly recent change was a morning peak down service that ran as class 5 from Waterloo to Richmond to become a public Ascot service was revised to enter passenger service from Clapham Junction.

 

[Tony2215]

Is the last Cleethorpes to Manchester train still coupled up with an empty train at Sheffield forming the 22:11 to Airport? If so this train would be better used as an extra late night service back to Manchester after 23:00.

 

[Kryten2340]

I'm sure Virgin Trains East Coast won't like it but Grand Central could continue on to Newcastle on its way to Heaton and the same in reverse giving competition between Newcastle and London. Obviously it would take longer though.

 

[dk1]

Lots of comments about extending ECS workings but many don't have a guard so that would be additional expense for very little gain.

 

[Starmill]

The Neville Hill - Lincoln ECS service via Leeds would be a nice additional morning service. They're putting it on for the Christmas Market, but I'm not sure if it'd be that busy even if it was implemented (especially with the huge wait time outside of Lincoln)

I've been on that when it was put into service because of disruption, was quite interesting.

 

[muz379]

So are there any other cases of a train and a crew riding around on a 'positioning move' that might have prospective passengers? The 0354 Nottingham to Liverpool goes further and departs later than the Chester service, so it might sound like a more useful candidate. Unfortunately it couldn't serve Sheffield without taking a lot more time, and thusly having to leave Nottingham earlier, which might cost EMT more for almost no gain. But assuming it already carries a driver and a guard it could still operate as a train for Piccadilly - Liverpool. If there might be someone who wants to go from Chester to Manchester at 0334, there is probably a similar chance someone wants to go there from Nottingham at 0356!

Of course, they aren't necessarily practical in all cases and there may be a very good reason why they are empty at present, interesting comparison nonetheless.

That Nottingham to Liverpool goes down Chat Moss ,Do EMT guards sign that way as well given in service the EMT services go via Warrington between LIV and MAN ? . If they dont then how much time and money is it going to cost to get all of the guards out road learning for one service a day .

My experience of traveling a fair bit on ECS moves is that you often get diverted , or let go early so the signaler can let a late runner through in your path . You also sometimes get shoved in a loop or sidings somewhere if its all going a bit haywire to alleviate some of the load on the signaler . There are also a lot of ECS moves that get binned or unit swaps happen as certain unit number are needed at depots for exams and heavy maintenance .

 

[Starmill]

That Nottingham to Liverpool goes down Chat Moss ,Do EMT guards sign that way as well given in service the EMT services go via Warrington between LIV and MAN ? . If they dont then how much time and money is it going to cost to get all of the guards out road learning for one service a day .

I was assuming the fact they need to sign it is the reason it goes that way, actually!

 

[muz379]

I was assuming the fact they need to sign it is the reason it goes that way, actually!

Maybe ,But then there is nothing lost if the guard does not sign that way as if it has dropped off his/her card or h/she never got round to actually learning it in the first place . Whereas if the service run as a passenger service you might be looking at a potential cancellation and the associated costs just so the train can run empty .

 

[455driver]

So what is the point of the drivers signing it if the guards dont?

 

[Boothby97]

Is the last Cleethorpes to Manchester train still coupled up with an empty train at Sheffield forming the 22:11 to Airport? If so this train would be better used as an extra late night service back to Manchester after 23:00.

Don't think so, as it (2026 CLE-MIA) is 2x170s from Cleethorpes.

 

[theageofthetra]

The last down service to Hayes is now a service train from Hayes back to Lewisham - due to DOO and there being no station staff at Hayes it means the train gets locked out of use by the station staff at Lewisham & the driver doesn't have to attempt to remove drunk & sleeping passengers on his/her own.

 

[LowLevel]

Maybe ,But then there is nothing lost if the guard does not sign that way as if it has dropped off his/her card or h/she never got round to actually learning it in the first place . Whereas if the service run as a passenger service you might be looking at a potential cancellation and the associated costs just so the train can run empty .

Some guards sign it but not all. They also sign via Romiley and Marple, through Beighton Jn and Barrow Hill, Clay Cross to Derby and through Toton Centre to Attenborough Jn as diversionary routes. Not everyone signs all of them but the EMT Nottingham local route card for guards is quite impressive.

 

[RPM]

Another thing to bear in mind when suggesting changing ECS moves to service trains is that the pathing is often unsuitable for passenger working. On most ECS trips I spend most of the time crawling along on yellow signals with several long waits at reds. It's hardly the sort of thing you'd deliberately want to put passengers through.