Transdev Blazefield

[SCH117X]

The B9s will outlast Maltons B5s, I guarantee it. It wouldn’t surprise me if Harrogate’s B9s go to Coastliner when the time comes.

Harrogate will still need some B9s for the X98 / X99

 

[Ashly_Jethro]

Given the financial situation a gap in orders wouldn't be a surprise. But also, are there that many vehicles in urgent need of replacement beyond those already directly or indirectly accounted for by the electric orders? A lot of older buses in the fleet have been seen off by service cuts in recent years, and a few more will be replaced by buses retained from Rochdale.

A wider issue in the industry is electrification - as noted, Transdev have no diesel buses on order. If you buy a diesel bus now how much use will there be for it 10 or 15 years down the line? But electric buses do not seem to be there yet without government support. If we're talking about Coastliner, that will be one of the more difficult routes for EVs, so it might not be suitable yet but is it worth buying another set of diesels?

In the case of diesels, I don’t think they’ll become any less of an asset for at least another decade. I am however interested to see how hydrogen technology progresses, as a zero emission solution, it does seem the most logical option without having issues with battery capacity, lifespan, and of course growing demand and strain on the national grid.

Wrights have been pushing their HydroLiners a lot in recent weeks, ADL on the other hand haven’t much advertised the E400H but considering the launch of their brand new electrics it’s not surprising they’re taking centre stage.

I do think it has been unwise of blazefield to jump onto the electric bandwagon without much trail of hydrogen. They’ll be kicking themselves if Hydrogen wins out and they’re left with obsolete electrics.

 

[Andyh82]

The electrification situation is why I can see the current fleet on Coastliner carrying on for quite a number of years yet

Im not sure any electric bus is suited to be thrashed down the A64 as yet

In any case, people here are saying the B5s were not suitable from the start, not that they have suddenly become unreliable because of age.

 

[Ashly_Jethro]

Harrogate will still need some B9s for the X98 / X99

Their aim is supposedly having a fully zero emission fleet so I’m not sure how the x98/99 fits into that. Plus they seem to be running a mix of double and singles since the MMCs were sent off to Burnley. But you’re right in the sense the B9s may well end up staying a bit longer until they have a more permanent solution in place

 

[Gaz67]

The minibuses are replacing the Yellow Rossendale Rovers buses, some already have new Branding applied with the others getting done too. Irwell Line is run out of Burnley now which is why some of the buses have a Burnley vehicle on. The grey ones have replaced the old yellow and teal ones. And lastly, any recent Blackburn blue ones will probably be covering the 464 as that’s run out of Blackburns depot.

Hope this answers your questions


When the 2022 accounts were filed, Transdev Paris implemented a no new orders mandate for 2024, but because the electrics had already been ordered at that point, they went ahead as planned

Thanks, will try and snap the Burnley minibuses , plenty of variety in Rawtenstall at moment.

 

[Leedsbusman]

When the 2022 accounts were filed, Transdev Paris implemented a no new orders mandate for 2024, but because the electrics had already been ordered at that point, they went ahead as planned

Where was that stated please?

 

[RustySpoons]

Where was that stated please?

See below (post #2780), notes from the union rep, late 2022.

TRANSDEV
You may be aware that both myself and XX attended a business review meeting on the 14th November.
At that meeting we were informed that the company had some serious issues to tackle and as such some serious actions it intended to take, 2022’s figures were showing a significant loss.

It was reported that Malton depot was losing around £1 million per year and that York depot was losing around £500,000 per year – clearly the losses cannot continue.

The losses were identified as stemming from the bus recovery grant, which the company had enjoyed since Covid, being assumed to cease at the end of March 2023, coupled with a massive increase in the cost of Gas, Electricity and Diesel.

The Fuel Duty rebate which public service operators enjoy is also due to be reduced. Inflation is currently above 10% and also there will be an increase in the Living Wage of 6.6%. – the increase in fuel costing the company over £3 million in itself.
In real terms this equates to a £4.9 million loss to the business for 2022.

Therefore in an attempt to stem the loss the company has decided that there will be no new buses (except for the ones currently ordered and paid for) for 2022/2023, there will be a 12% commercial fare increase in April of 2023.

We were shown a chart which was listing services in 4 categories, 1 - Making Money, 2 - Good but could be improved, 3 - Losing money For Retender, 4 - for Exit.
City Sightseeing services were in category 1 and will be retained for 2023 with a full service planned as well as improvements to increase efficiency.
Coastliner was in category 2 where improvements will be made to reduce waste as well as increase efficiency, and the Whitby service is planned to be withdrawn unless a tender is offered. If a tender were to be offered on this service then the company would actively bid for it.

In York the local services, Castleline and the NY Sponsored services were in category 4, and are not making money so it is proposed in April 2023 to put these services back to the Council for retender. The company will retender for these services, but at a vastly improved rate to the one we currently have. There may also be a possibility at this stage that First York could reduce some of their services and there is a possibility that we could pick up some of their runs after tenders are issued.

Service 22/23 was earmarked in category 4 for withdrawal in April 2023 (the company may retender but it is not known at this time if that will be the case).
I asked the question - was York and Coastliner going to be merged together due to the new depot being built at Rawcliffe? – the answer was simply “nothing is off the table”- it was also said that the company will look to reduce the operational scope of both York and Malton depots and focus on strong commercial bus operation.

In light of the cost-cutting taking place the “Amazing Awards” have been cancelled for this year as it’s hard to be seen to be celebrating success whilst making cuts – and the magazine that gets delivered to our homes on a regular basis is to be withdrawn. The bonus for joining the company will also be gradually withdrawn.
Contract Engineers would also be phased out – with the company looking to recruit and retain its own employed staff.
One standard uniform across the group will be introduced next year to further cut costs.

With all these cuts - the company would still see a loss for 2022 of £250,000, not good but far better than several million.
On a positive note – I can confirm that the move to Rawcliffe is still on and we at York are still on track to be moving there in early January, a temporary workshop will be erected shortly and portable buildings will be delivered for us to work out of, a small extension to the end of January has been agreed for Hospital Fields Road and this is expected to allow the movement of equipment to the new site.

That’s all the news for now – anything new or any updates I’ll let you know as soon as I find out.
Trade Union Rep.

It does state that there are no new buses for 2023, but I can't see this changing for 2024.

 

[Andyh82]

They can get away with it though due to the investment in new and second hand vehicles in recent years, such as the modern solos at Team Pennine and the ex-Nottingham Enviro 200s that were mostly at Rosso

There are no routes that are on their last legs crying out for investment, that won’t be solved by the electrics order.

The B10BLEs in Burnley have gone, and the ones in Blackburn are expected to go soon. Most have also gone off Keighley schools.

It’s also worth pointing out for those who just look at ages on a fleetlist, most Transdev vehicles will be a high spec to start with, and will have been refurbished mid life. A similar age mid life First bus will still be the same as when they entered service.

 

[Leedsbusman]

See below (post #2780), notes from the union rep, late 2022.



It does state that there are no new buses for 2023, but I can't see this changing for 2024.

But it has changed; 54 new electric buses have been ordered since then for 2024!

 

[158756]

But it has changed 54 new electric buses have been ordered since then for 2024!

Those are all related to ZEBRA funding, which was awarded all the way back in March 2022, before the stop to new orders.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Those are all related to ZEBRA funding, which was awarded all the way back in March 2022, before the stop to new orders.

But they were ordered in August 23. Ordering more vehicles in one year than ever before doesn’t really sound like there is an edict not to buy new buses!

 

[YorkRailFan]

I would argue that the best bus being used on the Coastliner at the moment is the single E400mmc in Transdev's "Pride of the North" livery. It seems far more suited than their other vehicles.

 

[RustySpoons]

But they were ordered in August 23. Ordering more vehicles in one year than ever before doesn’t really sound like there is an edict not to buy new buses!

Yes, but funding was secured nearly 18 months earlier.

They can get away with it though due to the investment in new and second hand vehicles in recent years, such as the modern solos at Team Pennine and the ex-Nottingham Enviro 200s that were mostly at Rosso

There are no routes that are on their last legs crying out for investment, that won’t be solved by the electrics order.

The B10BLEs in Burnley have gone, and the ones in Blackburn are expected to go soon. Most have also gone off Keighley schools.

It’s also worth pointing out for those who just look at ages on a fleetlist, most Transdev vehicles will be a high spec to start with, and will have been refurbished mid life. A similar age mid life First bus will still be the same as when they entered service.

Quality second hand buys and the cascades as a result of the incoming electrics will refresh a few fleets I'm sure, but the Versa's on the Mainline in Burnley, 6/7 in Blackburn and especially the 464 are starting to feel quite tired now so they're going to want replacing at some point in the not too distant future.

 

[stevieinselby]

Quality second hand buys and the cascades as a result of the incoming electrics will refresh a few fleets I'm sure, but the Versa's on the Mainline in Burnley, 6/7 in Blackburn and especially the 464 are starting to feel quite tired now so they're going to want replacing at some point in the not too distant future.

Worrying if the Versas on the 464 are feeling tired – they are from 2018 and are a couple of years newer than those used on Mainline, Flyer and Blackburn locals.

Their aim is supposedly having a fully zero emission fleet so I’m not sure how the x98/99 fits into that. Plus they seem to be running a mix of double and singles since the MMCs were sent off to Burnley. But you’re right in the sense the B9s may well end up staying a bit longer until they have a more permanent solution in place

Their intention is to have a zero emissions fleet for stage carriage services in Harrogate and Knaresborough.
I don't see any likelihood of the school buses being upgraded to electric in the near future, so unless they are planning on dropping those completely or moving them to a different depot and sucking up the dead mileage, they won't be turning Starbeck into a diesel-free zone any time soon ... so having the X98/X99 as diesel won't conflict with those plans – and until the WYCA franchise plans are known I wouldn't expect them to make any decisions.

And frankly, the decisions they have made are a bit bizarre. With the typical daily allocation being two B7 saloons, one B9 decker and one Sky Class, you've got to wonder why they kept one Sky Class bus in Harrogate when they moved the other 3 away and giving Wetherby passengers the occasional reminder of what they've had taken from them, rather than moving them all together and keeping consistent fleets.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Yes, but funding was secured nearly 18 months earlier.
.

Correct but the buses were not ordered until last year. Is there any actual evidence that the company is currently under any instruction that it cannot invest? So far a union report of no new buses in 2022/3 is the only ‘evidence’ and that’s well out of date.

 

[Andyh82]

I think there are unrealistic expectations if you think buses from 2017 need replacing

 

[96tommy]

Just an app query - is there any way of seeing how busy the buses are? As what is now usual on a Saturday morning in Tadcaster, I had to let 2x York bound buses come and go as they were full on arrival. It used to be great on the old app to check how busy the bus was but I can't see it on the new one.

 

[Ashly_Jethro]

Worrying if the Versas on the 464 are feeling tired – they are from 2018 and are a couple of years newer than those used on Mainline, Flyer and Blackburn locals.


Their intention is to have a zero emissions fleet for stage carriage services in Harrogate and Knaresborough.
I don't see any likelihood of the school buses being upgraded to electric in the near future, so unless they are planning on dropping those completely or moving them to a different depot and sucking up the dead mileage, they won't be turning Starbeck into a diesel-free zone any time soon ... so having the X98/X99 as diesel won't conflict with those plans – and until the WYCA franchise plans are known I wouldn't expect them to make any decisions.

And frankly, the decisions they have made are a bit bizarre. With the typical daily allocation being two B7 saloons, one B9 decker and one Sky Class, you've got to wonder why they kept one Sky Class bus in Harrogate when they moved the other 3 away and giving Wetherby passengers the occasional reminder of what they've had taken from them, rather than moving them all together and keeping consistent fleets.

The 464s weren’t built to as well as standard as the Blackburn/Flyer ones were, mainlines are the same but at least they have decent engines in them. The 464 was seemingly the last nail in the coffin for new Optare buses at blazefield.

I know schools and contract work won’t go zero emissions, but with x98/99 being a front line service, they’d likely want that to be included within the zero emissions group. That is unless they specifically meant services that serve Harrogate.

The reason for the MMCs moving in the pattern they have is because they couldnt spare all 4 deckers at one time, they had to move one, to displace a b9, which could then displace the next MMC. The reason 2017 is still there is because another vehicle was accident damaged (so I believe) which mean it couldn’t get displaced as planned. Isn’t not staying for much longer though. It will be joining the other at Burnley in due course

Correct but the buses were not ordered until last year. Is there any actual evidence that the company is currently under any instruction that it cannot invest? So far a union report of no new buses in 2022/3 is the only ‘evidence’ and that’s well out of date.

The point is, they’d made a commitment to order them before the decision was made to halt any new orders. If they didn’t order them they would have lost a significant amount of government funding for new fleet that they may never receive again. So really it was more expensive to not order them and loose the funding then order them with the funding.

I think there are unrealistic expectations if you think buses from 2017 need replacing

It’s a case of they don’t make them like they used to. The B10s that were withdrawn from Burnley (mostly 2001) were still in better condition when they were withdrawn than the Mainline Versas are now. And that not a reflection on maintenance but the fact they just weren’t built to a good quality. Hence the full fleet being plagued with transmission issues and one of them even having the gear shifter fall apart in the first week or so of service. Optare just don’t seem to care anymore. They just get slapped together and pushed out

 

[Leedsbusman]

The point is, they’d made a commitment to order them before the decision was made to halt any new orders. If they didn’t order them they would have lost a significant amount of government funding for new fleet that they may never receive again. So really it was more expensive to not order them and loose the funding then order them with the funding.

Surely not - as even with the funding electric buses are more expensive than diesel ones. Have you a source for all this? It sounds conjecture to me. “You have lost money so no money for new buses apart from the biggest order you have ever placed”.

 

[Ashly_Jethro]

Surely not - as even with the funding electric buses are more expensive than diesel ones. Have you a source for all this? It sounds conjecture to me. “You have lost money so no money for new buses apart from the biggest order you have ever placed”.

Zebra funding covers upto 75% of the cost to upgrade to EV, that includes the infrastructure at the depot and bus station. Not only that, to my knowledge the council also made a contribution. It wouldn’t surprise me if the cost to Transdev is less than what the 30 mainline versas cost. So considering they’re getting 54 including deckers, plus funding for all the infrastructure. It really is a no-brainer to use that opportunity and not miss it

 

[johntea]

I noticed this morning they can’t even proof read a poster promoting the new app without mucking it up

 

[RustySpoons]

Surely not - as even with the funding electric buses are more expensive than diesel ones. Have you a source for all this? It sounds conjecture to me. “You have lost money so no money for new buses apart from the biggest order you have ever placed”.

If Transdev were buying them themselves, yes. But as @Ashly_Jethro said ZEBRA funds up to 75% of the cost. Transdev in it's current state would not be able to fund a whole new fleet without the ZEBRA funding so makes sense to go ahead with the order. Harrogate gets a new fleet, the rest of the company will benefit from vehicles cascaded from Harrogate.

I think there are unrealistic expectations if you think buses from 2017 need replacing

Aside from the fact the majority of the lightweight Versas aren't suited for the heavyweight work they're doing, in times gone by fleets were renewed or refurbished every 7 or 8 years.

 

[Leedsbusman]

If Transdev were buying them themselves, yes. But as @Ashly_Jethro said ZEBRA funds up to 75% of the cost. Transdev in it's current state would not be able to fund a whole new fleet without the ZEBRA funding so makes sense to go ahead with the order. Harrogate gets a new fleet, the rest of the company will benefit from vehicles cascaded from Harrogate.

That just isn’t true either. ZEBRA funds 75% of the difference between a diesel and an electric so Transdev will still be paying 25% more per bus than if it was buying diesels. So clearly if they can afford to pay 125% of the price of 54 diesel buses they can afford to purchase 54 actual diesel buses!

Still nobody has provided any evidence that there is a current investment ban imposed - yet are tying themselves in nots trying to prove that 54 new buses doesn’t really count as investment! Very odd!

Zebra funding: From: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...2/apply-for-zero-emission-bus-funding-zebra-2

The funding amount will use the same funding formula as previous schemes.

DfT will contribute up to 75% of the cost difference between a ZEB and a standard conventional diesel bus equivalent of the same total passenger capacity.

For infrastructure, DfT will contribute up to 75% of the total capital expenditure incurred as a result of its purchase and installation.

Also

Harrogate Bus Company's fleet to go all-electric after orders worth £21 million placed for 39 new buses

Harrogate Bus Company has confirmed its parent firm Transdev has placed orders worth £21 million for 39 new buses to convert its entire Harrogate fleet to fully electric power.

www.harrogateadvertiser.co.uk

Harrogate Bus Company has confirmed its parent firm Transdev has placed orders worth £21 million for 39 new buses….. The orders are supported by £7.8 million of funding from the Government’s Zero Emission Bus Regional Areas (ZEBRA)

That suggests £7.8mn out of £21mn (37%) from DFT and the rest from Transdev.

Also the 30 Versas in 2016 cost £4.5m https://www.keybuses.com/article/ps...sas are,refurbished for other Transdev routes.

This also was the launch day for 30 new Optare Versas purchased in a £4.5million investment in the sevenday routes connecting Burnley with Nelson, Colne, Padiham, Barnoldswick, Clitheroe, Accrington, Trawden and Keighley, running up to every 7min.

 

[stevieinselby]

If Transdev were buying them themselves, yes. But as @Ashly_Jethro said ZEBRA funds up to 75% of the cost. Transdev in it's current state would not be able to fund a whole new fleet without the ZEBRA funding so makes sense to go ahead with the order. Harrogate gets a new fleet, the rest of the company will benefit from vehicles cascaded from Harrogate.

It's 75% of the difference between an equivalent diesel bus and an electric bus.
So Transdev are still paying at least the cost of 54 new diesel buses (and potentially up to 25% more, if there is no contribution from the local authority to make up the difference).

 

[RustySpoons]

It's 75% of the difference between an equivalent diesel bus and an electric bus.
So Transdev are still paying at least the cost of 54 new diesel buses (and potentially up to 25% more, if there is no contribution from the local authority to make up the difference).

That just isn’t true either. ZEBRA funds 75% of the difference between a diesel and an electric so Transdev will still be paying 25% more per bus than if it was buying diesels. So clearly if they can afford to pay 125% of the price of 54 diesel buses they can afford to purchase 54 actual diesel buses!

Still nobody has provided any evidence that there is a current investment ban imposed - yet are tying themselves in nots trying to prove that 54 new buses doesn’t really count as investment! Very odd!

Interesting re the 75%. Didn't realise that!

I've never said that the 54 new buses doesn't count as an investment. I've also provided a quote from the trade union rep after meetings with management stating that no new vehicles are being ordered aside from the electrics. If you want to go back to the posts around #2780 there's plenty of discussion there. There's little point in me repeating myself so I'll bow out of this discussion now.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Interesting re the 75%. Didn't realise that!

I've never said that the 54 new buses doesn't count as an investment. I've also provided a quote from the trade union rep after meetings with management stating that no new vehicles are being ordered aside from the electrics. If you want to go back to the posts around #2780 there's plenty of discussion there. There's little point in me repeating myself so I'll bow out of this discussion now.

Fair enough but there was no mention of the electrics in that quote!

 

[158756]

Just an app query - is there any way of seeing how busy the buses are? As what is now usual on a Saturday morning in Tadcaster, I had to let 2x York bound buses come and go as they were full on arrival. It used to be great on the old app to check how busy the bus was but I can't see it on the new one.

This was in the new app initially, but seems to have been replaced by the information about the bus features. I don't see why they couldn't bring it back given it was in the new app. It'd be more useful at least than identifying which buses have wheelchair access in the year 2024.

On the subject of the app, not much seems to have changed over the last couple of weeks. They've made the oversized bus icons slightly smaller, but that's about it. It's still slow, the departure times are still very hit and miss and show the wrong destinations, the timetables are still wrong. 1.2 stars on Google Play now.

Another fault is if you try to use the journey planner with location settings (why on earth does the journey planner require your location anyway) turned off the app gets stuck in a never ending loop saying permission denied. It's just terribly designed all round.

 

[M803UYA]

I think there are unrealistic expectations if you think buses from 2017 need replacing

On a high performing route, I'd expect a 7 year old bus to be removed from it around this time and put somewhere else in the company with a new one taking it's place. This is generally how the industry works too. So I'd expect the buses from 36 and coastliner to be moving onto less busier routes and refreshing those with brand new ones coming in. There is a new fleet for 36 coming, so the company has done half of the job. Replicating this for coastliner is a harder proposition as EVs don't have the range needed to run coastliner vehicle workings. Yet.

 

[Andyh82]

On a high performing route, I'd expect a 7 year old bus to be removed from it around this time and put somewhere else in the company with a new one taking it's place. This is generally how the industry works too. So I'd expect the buses from 36 and coastliner to be moving onto less busier routes and refreshing those with brand new ones coming in. There is a new fleet for 36 coming, so the company has done half of the job. Replicating this for coastliner is a harder proposition as EVs don't have the range needed to run coastliner vehicle workings. Yet.

Even after all the turmoil in the industry over recent years, (COVID, less passengers after COVID, high inflation meaning high pay rises, high costs of parts, various government grants starting and ending, £2 bus fares, electrification etc etc) you still think the old rules still apply?

There are major routes up and down the country with every operator you can think of using buses older than 7 years old on major routes

 

[SCH117X]

And frankly, the decisions they have made are a bit bizarre. With the typical daily allocation being two B7 saloons, one B9 decker and one Sky Class, you've got to wonder why they kept one Sky Class bus in Harrogate when they moved the other 3 away and giving Wetherby passengers the occasional reminder of what they've had taken from them, rather than moving them all together and keeping consistent fleets.

It was the availability of a replacement vehicle. Two E400s were quickly dispensed with by changing to two singles two doubles on the X98/X99. The arrival of B9 2428 allowed the third to go while the arrival of B9 2427 was meant to see 2017 disappear also to Burnley but Starbeck has hung on it with the indication now it is staying until the Electrics arrive for the 36. They have been a vehicle down since 3617s accident last September and the B5s like Coastliners are liable to to have issues. Its typically rare to look at Bustimes and see no early disappearing vehicles from the 36 which are mid route somewhere. 2017 spent a good while working the 36 until they put it back on the X98/X99.