Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[YorkshireBear]

Why can't the houses at Mossley be CPO'd? CPO is always contentious and obviously causes distress to the existing homeowners which is not ideal. However it is also there to be used in just this sort of situation.

Any NPR alternative route is many years away. The cost of CPO of these properties would not be silly money compared to overall scheme costs. Better to get the job done now and properly and I am not keen on letting Grayling use a few houses in Mossley as an excuse to delay the electrification of one of the most important rail routes in the country.

I believe some are owned by the local MP who is not happy about that suggestion and kicked up a massive fuss when it was discussed with them.

 

[YorkshireBear]

So in the space of just a few posts, three potential solutions have been derived. Now if some enthusiasts on a forum can brain storm so easily, why can't DfT? Oh wait, its just another excuse for Grayling & Co to skimp out on the project so they don't have to tackle the <ahem> "difficult" wiring of Standage <cough>. Any one of these solutions, whilst not ideal could offer a solution to a relatively simple problem.

You think the DfT haven't already come up with these?? I have seen them all mentioned by Network Rail as potential solutions so rather than us brainstorming I would suggest we have repeated ideas we have heard elsewhere. The cost, disruption and PR have led to not doing it, not a lack of engineering solutions!

 

[59CosG95]

Isn’t HS1 continental gauge and therefore bigger? Or have I misunderstood your point?

HS1 is indeed bigger (due to continental gauge), but the wiring arrangement there is much more tuned to the traffic that uses it (following on from French LGV practice) - I believe the Tensioning arrangements are different to those used on the 'classic' network. The exact differences are something I don't quite know, however.

 

[furnessvale]

Ah, much longer than I thought. Too long for a neutral section. The only answer is protective screening but it would have to be idiot-proof. Is there any room for slewing away even if the bridge abutment is rebuilt and the platforms moved?

Slightly OT but viewing cab rides in Switzerland on youtube shows the level of protection (NOT) applied by other countries.

 

[AndrewE]

I believe some are owned by the local MP who is not happy about that suggestion and kicked up a massive fuss when it was discussed with them.

If that really is correct I hope it becomes more widely known in the area, where people are being so badly affected at the moment. It may not be a cause of the current disruption but it is helping postpone any chance of improvement.

You think the DfT haven't already come up with these?? I have seen them all mentioned by Network Rail as potential solutions so rather than us brainstorming I would suggest we have repeated ideas we have heard elsewhere. The cost, disruption and PR have led to not doing it, not a lack of engineering solutions!

You have cheered me up to some extent, most things capable of an engineering solution can be done if the motivation is there or someone is given the remit. I would guess that we are back with the UK's usual problem, the lack of any political willpower.
I can't see a simple brick wall being stable at the height it would need to be though.

 

[Bantamzen]

You think the DfT haven't already come up with these?? I have seen them all mentioned by Network Rail as potential solutions so rather than us brainstorming I would suggest we have repeated ideas we have heard elsewhere. The cost, disruption and PR have led to not doing it, not a lack of engineering solutions!

In terms of overall project cost, it really wouldn't amount to a huge amount, disruption could be limited to when the wires went up, and as for PR whilst not great news for the residents which is worse? A number of residents having to put up with a brick / plastic barrier between them and the live wires being installed, or miles of track being left unwired with bi-modes carrying diesel engines around with them to navigate these sections?

But you missed my point by a country mile, I was inferring that the solutions are already there but DfT are using issues like this to get out of the full wiring commitments!

 

[GreatAuk]

You think the DfT haven't already come up with these?? I have seen them all mentioned by Network Rail as potential solutions so rather than us brainstorming I would suggest we have repeated ideas we have heard elsewhere. The cost, disruption and PR have led to not doing it, not a lack of engineering solutions!

Personally I haven't seen any breakdown of solutions so was just brainstorming - however, I have no doubt that Network Rail has / could come up with these and many more potential solutions. I think the point is that issues like this are used as an illegitimate excuse by people who actually want to stop electrification for other reasons.

 

[modernrail]

I

Personally I haven't seen any breakdown of solutions so was just brainstorming - however, I have no doubt that Network Rail has / could come up with these and many more potential solutions. I think the point is that issues like this are used as an illegitimate excuse by people who actually want to stop electrification for other reasons.

If a few houses in Mossley are being used as a significant reason for not electrifying one of the most important train lines in the country the we can all go home. No point in having any ambition for the north. Forget any Brexit dividend if this is the approach as well. Westminster is far more dangerous for the north than the EU. I would rather have EU structural funds to upgrade the line as a significant pan-European route for freight, which is what it should be instead of the death trap car park otherwise known as the M62.

The local MP can be CPO'd just like anyone else. That is no excuse. CPO should only be used if no other technical solution is available and either there are solutions or there are not. A little but if transparency on that question would be lovely but obviously too much to ask for. Whitehall really does treat the rest of the UK as it's last colony.

If Grayling announces another screw up solution the north needs to mobilise big time this time. No throwing toys out of the pram and disengaging. A hard-core and sustained campaign. Maybe a few yellow vests as well . Seriously though, this is no way to run an economy.

 

[YorkshireBear]

In terms of overall project cost, it really wouldn't amount to a huge amount, disruption could be limited to when the wires went up, and as for PR whilst not great news for the residents which is worse? A number of residents having to put up with a brick / plastic barrier between them and the live wires being installed, or miles of track being left unwired with bi-modes carrying diesel engines around with them to navigate these sections?

But you missed my point by a country mile, I was inferring that the solutions are already there but DfT are using issues like this to get out of the full wiring commitments!

I thought you were suggesting no ideas were being come up with. I completely agree with you, I entirely missed your point!

Engineering wise not difficult but provides a quite nice scapegoat!

 

[Bantamzen]

I thought you were suggesting no ideas were being come up with. I completely agree with you, I entirely missed your point!

Engineering wise not difficult but provides a quite nice scapegoat!

Sorry, my form of sarcasm doesn't always translate very well into text!

I


If a few houses in Mossley are being used as a significant reason for not electrifying one of the most important train lines in the country the we can all go home. No point in having any ambition for the north. Forget any Brexit dividend if this is the approach as well. Westminster is far more dangerous for the north than the EU. I would rather have EU structural funds to upgrade the line as a significant pan-European route for freight, which is what it should be instead of the death trap car park otherwise known as the M62.

The local MP can be CPO'd just like anyone else. That is no excuse. CPO should only be used if no other technical solution is available and either there are solutions or there are not. A little but if transparency on that question would be lovely but obviously too much to ask for. Whitehall really does treat the rest of the UK as it's last colony.

If Grayling announces another screw up solution the north needs to mobilise big time this time. No throwing toys out of the pram and disengaging. A hard-core and sustained campaign. Maybe a few yellow vests as well . Seriously though, this is no way to run an economy.

I'll ring the taxi then, because believe me this is exactly the kind of thing that public sector decision makers who get cold feet about large scale projects use to get out of Dodge. I've seen many large projects get derailed (pun intended) with the most ridiculous, minor reasons for doing so. Mossley would certainly come under this category. I'd love to be able to expand, but its more than my job's worth etc (unless someone wants to spot me enough to get out of the public sector, and fund a living in a nice warm country with extradition treaties with the UK.....)

 

[nr758123]

I believe some are owned by the local MP who is not happy about that suggestion and kicked up a massive fuss when it was discussed with them.

I'm fairly sure the current local MP does not own houses backing on to the railway line at Mossley, but if you like I'll ask next time I see him. Maybe a former MP, or an MP for somewhere else?

 

[HowardGWR]

and fund a living in a nice warm country without extradition treaties with the UK.....)

Put that right for you!

 

[Bantamzen]

Put that right for you!

Ooops, silly me. Not making a good whistle-blower am I....?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I'm fairly sure the current local MP does not own houses backing on to the railway line at Mossley, but if you like I'll ask next time I see him. Maybe a former MP, or an MP for somewhere else?

Possibly, this is information from a presentation 2 years ago, so could be old news. But i trust the source being a formal presentation at a PWI conference.

 

[deltic08]

I believe some are owned by the local MP who is not happy about that suggestion and kicked up a massive fuss when it was discussed with them.

Some! How many?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Some! How many?

More than 1 was mentioned but no specifics.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I thought Grayling was going to announce before Christmas recess - has the can been kicked down the road again?

 

[59CosG95]

I thought Grayling was going to announce before Christmas recess - has the can been kicked down the road again?

It wouldn't surprise me if it has, with the whole Brexit furore.

 

[Chris125]

Brexit is using up the bandwidth of government and sadly it's crowding out everything else - announcements and decisions across Whitehall are being continually delayed.

 

[The Ham]

Brexit is using up the bandwidth of government and sadly it's crowding out everything else - announcements and decisions across Whitehall are being continually delayed.

Even those which are being announced are going under the radar:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/5-bits-bad-news-you-13760957.amp?__twitter_impression=true

1. Public health budgets have been quietly slashed...
2. No-deal Brexit is no longer 'unlikely'...
3. The Tories admitted more than 4,500 disabled people were wrongly stripped of benefits...
4. The number of homeless deaths has soared...
5. Disabled benefit claimants will wait YEARS for payments despite High Court victory...

Now some of those stories have been picked up by news organisations, yet if it weren't for Brexit many would be getting more airtime/column inches/website pixels*

* I know that last one is a true phrase, but you get the idea.

 

[Spod]

Just returning to Leeds - York and the 12-mile gap mentioned in the Guardian article... that wouldn't be the distance from the M1 bridge to Colton Junction, by any chance? If fast trains from Leeds to York will pick up the HS2 bypass (from south of Leeds to Colton Junction for trains to York and beyond) after crossing the M1, then NPR only needs electrification from Neville Hill to just past the M1.
The question then becomes, how important is it to run electric stoppers to Micklefield? Without fast services to help the business case, I can see why it might have dropped out of the £3bn of most impactful upgrades, even if it means no electrification to York until HS2 phase 2b completes in 2033.
The flaw in that logic is that it's not clear why they'd do Neville Hill to M1 now, rather than putting it off to complete around the same time as the HS2 link. The wires would be barely used for ten years! Or have construction timescales for Transpennine route upgrade slipped that far?
I'm not an expert, I'd welcome someone telling me why I'm wrong.

 

[Meerkat]

Couldn’t they get on and build that bit of HS2 now as part of TRU?

 

[furnessvale]

Couldn’t they get on and build that bit of HS2 now as part of TRU?

You believe HS2 stage 2 will be built? There's optimism for you!

 

[Spod]

I doubt they could get the land bought quickly enough, plus HS2 phase 2 hasn't been through parliament yet and the experts and machinery may be busy with HS2 phase 1.
Besides, it's easier to get that bit paid for nationally by HS2 than to try to fit it into the 3bn (and not a penny more no matter how much it would help) for TRU or make NPR look more expensive and less appealing to MPs.

 

[jyte]

Whilst I personally believe HS2 Phase 2 will be built, I'd stake more on the WCML bypassing arm than the ECML bypassing arm.

That being said, relying on a project that isn't due to be delivered for nearly 20 years to upgrade 'conventional' rail infrastructure is stupid.

 

[B Box]

Just returning to Leeds - York and the 12-mile gap mentioned in the Guardian article... that wouldn't be the distance from the M1 bridge to Colton Junction, by any chance? If fast trains from Leeds to York will pick up the HS2 bypass (from south of Leeds to Colton Junction for trains to York and beyond) after crossing the M1, then NPR only needs electrification from Neville Hill to just past the M1.
The question then becomes, how important is it to run electric stoppers to Micklefield? Without fast services to help the business case, I can see why it might have dropped out of the £3bn of most impactful upgrades, even if it means no electrification to York until HS2 phase 2b completes in 2033.
The flaw in that logic is that it's not clear why they'd do Neville Hill to M1 now, rather than putting it off to complete around the same time as the HS2 link. The wires would be barely used for ten years! Or have construction timescales for Transpennine route upgrade slipped that far?
I'm not an expert, I'd welcome someone telling me why I'm wrong.

Well, electrification is said to go beyond Micklefield to Selby which passes Hambleton Junction and Gascoigne Wood.

Consequently electric trains from ECML south can get to Leeds and beyond via Hambleton West, and could also use an electric ECML diversion route to York if the short stretch from Gascoigne Wood to Church Fenton was electrified.

This is not difficult territory for electrification, probably one of the least complex and least expensive sections on the whole trans-pennine route.

 

[WatcherZero]

I thought Grayling was going to announce before Christmas recess - has the can been kicked down the road again?

Yes was leaked a couple of weeks ago, TfTN held off the submission because the government was preoccupied with the Brexit deal vote. Transport has also been one of the worst affected departments by emergency no deal planning as well, 10% of Dft staff have been retasked with contingency planning and their current no-Brexit plan is fully 25% of current Dft employees will don high viz and be deployed to ports. Essentially meaning all other transport work is frozen.

 

[deltic08]

Well, electrification is said to go beyond Micklefield to Selby which passes Hambleton Junction and Gascoigne Wood.

Consequently electric trains from ECML south can get to Leeds and beyond via Hambleton East, and could also use an electric ECML diversion route to York if the short stretch from Gascoigne Wood to Church Fenton was electrified.

This is not difficult territory for electrification, probably one of the least complex and expensive sections on the whole trans-pennine route.

Two out of four bridges between Church Fenton and Colton Jnc have already been lifted as part of the original TP electrification scheme.

 

[johnmoly]

Didn't Chris Grayling state a few weeks ago that HS2 won't go past Birmingham.

 

[Bald Rick]

Didn't Chris Grayling state a few weeks ago that HS2 won't go past Birmingham.

No, he did not. He said that Phase 2 wasn’t “in the bag”, meaning that it wasn’t certain till the bill gets royal assent and the cash is confirmed. But that wasn’t what the press heard.

Within 24hrs the government press office issued a ‘what the minister meant to say’ statement.