Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[GRALISTAIR]

FYI - in a similar vein to the Manchester-Preston GSoP, as well as the similar Progressometers(TM) for the GWML, EGIP/Shotts/SDA, and MML schemes, a TransPennine Electrification Progressometer is now at the design stage. @GRALISTAIR - hopefully we can help encourage forum members to report on this!

I am sure @LDECRexile will be game

 

[Greybeard33]

That's part of NWEP (phase 5). Announced in 2011(?). Due by Dec 16. Just re-badged because NR are so late in delivering it.

There's a news article that's been published to save anyone interested a Google search.

Edit: to add, it will be interesting to see if the re-branding to TRPU ends up with Guide Bridge to Stalybridge becoming de-scoped.

Phase 5 also included the Philips Park line to Ashburys.

 

[driver_m]

I am sure @LDECRexile will be game

He'll Have to use a flickr alternative now though! Aren't they charging now for big collections? @LDECRexile do you fancy the challenge?!! Hope you do..

 

[GRALISTAIR]

He'll Have to use a flickr alternative now though! Aren't they charging now for big collections? @LDECRexile do you fancy the challenge?!! Hope you do..

I will pay

 

[59CosG95]

First Progressometer incoming!


TransPennine Wiring Progressometer Post 1.0 - initial post, 16/1/2019.
Routes announced as 'to be wired': Manchester Victoria - Stalybridge (via Ashton-u-Lyne); Huddersfield-Leeds (via Morley).
All mileages from Manchester Victoria unless stated otherwise. Bridge mileages are approximated where noted.

1. Man Vic Station (Platforms 3-6) - Man Vic East Jct - Miles Platting Jct; 0m 0ch to 1m 30ch
Fully wired and energised 2018-19.
(N.B. Platforms 1 & 2 at Man Vic have now been bedanglied; more masts may still need to be installed at the east side of Man Vic before wires can go up over all lines. Wires were due to go up here over Christmas, in conjunction with the installation of the "Great Extension Lead" from Stalybridge.)

2. Miles Platting Jct - Philips Park West Jct - Baguley Fold Jct - Ashton Moss North Jct - Ashton-under-Lyne (inc.); 1m 30ch to 6m 33ch
Brewery Triangle (Miles Platting Jct/Brewery Jct/PP West Jct) - unknown whether the Brewery Lines (linking PP W Jct & Brewery Jct) will be electrified.
Philips Park Triangle (PP West Jct/PP South Jct/Baguley Fold Jct) - unknown whether the Baguley Lines (linking PP S Jct & Baguley Fold Jct) and the Ashburys Lines (linking PP W Jct & Ashburys East Jct) will also be electrified.
Ashton Moss North Jct - unknown whether the Crowthorne Lines (towards Denton) will be electrified, and if so, how far.

3. Ashton-under-Lyne (exc.) - Stalybridge Jct - Stalybridge (exc.); 6m 33ch to 7m 63ch
Major obstacle(s): Katherine St Tunnel (6, 55ch to 6m 60ch).

4. Stalybridge Station; 7m 63ch

4a. Stalybridge - Mossley - Greenfield - Standedge Tunnel - Marsden - Slaithwaite - Huddersfield is due to remain unwired until further notice.
The eastern extent of wiring (from Stalybridge) and the western extent of wiring (from Huddersfield) are not yet known.

5. Huddersfield Station; 25m 60ch
Major Obstacles:
Gledholt Tunnels (25m 04ch to 25m 15ch)
Huddersfield Tunnels (25m 20ch to 25m 51ch). Assuming both tunnel pairs will be wired due to the latter's proximity to the throat of Huddersfield Station.

Station is Grade I Listed, so may well require bespoke solution within trainshed (probably headspans).

6. Huddersfield (exc.) - Deighton (inc.); 25m 60ch to 27m 60ch
Major Obstacles: Huddersfield Viaduct - bespoke wall fixings required if 4-tracks planned northwards.

6. Deighton (exc.) - Bradley Jct - Heaton Lodge Jct - Mirfield (inc.); 27m 60ch to 30m 54ch
Major Obstacles: Heaton Lodge Jct (for OLE clearances); Bridges over River Calder

7. Mirfield (exc.) - Mirfield East Jct - Thornhill LNW Jct - Ravensthorpe - Dewsbury (inc.); 30m 54ch to 33m 62ch
Major Obstacles: Thornhill LNW Jct (potentially grade-separated)

8. Dewsbury (exc.) - Batley - Morley (inc.); 33m 62ch to 38m 24ch
Major Obstacles: Dewsbury Viaduct; Batley Viaduct; Morley Tunnel (36m 25ch to 38m 19ch)

9. Morley (exc.) - Cottingley - Copley Hill East Jct (exc.); 38m 24ch to 42m 03ch
Major Obstacles: Copley Hill Jcts (possible grade-separation candidates?)
N.B. Copley Hill East Jct is 185m 02ch from Kings Cross on ECM1.

Neville Hille East Jct to Colton Jct is under the remit of a different principal designer/consultancy to the Huddersfield Line - they have yet to reveal the outcome of whether Leeds-York will also be electrified.

Do let me know if I've missed anything!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Great start

 

[Magicake]

Phase 5 also included the Philips Park line to Ashburys.

From what I've heard the line to Guide Bridge is likely to be included but not the Philips Park line.

 

[Class 170101]

but not the Philips Park line.

Thats a shame.

 

[Greybeard33]

First Progressometer incoming!


TransPennine Wiring Progressometer Post 1.0 - initial post, 16/1/2019.
Routes announced as 'to be wired': Manchester Victoria - Stalybridge (via Ashton-u-Lyne); Huddersfield-Leeds (via Morley).
All mileages from Manchester Victoria unless stated otherwise. Bridge mileages are approximated where noted.

1. Man Vic Station (Platforms 3-6) - Man Vic East Jct - Miles Platting Jct; 0m 0ch to 1m 30ch
Fully wired and energised 2018-19.
(N.B. Platforms 1 & 2 at Man Vic have now been bedanglied; more masts may still need to be installed at the east side of Man Vic before wires can go up over all lines. Wires were due to go up here over Christmas, in conjunction with the installation of the "Great Extension Lead" from Stalybridge.)

2. Miles Platting Jct - Philips Park West Jct - Baguley Fold Jct - Ashton Moss North Jct - Ashton-under-Lyne (inc.); 1m 30ch to 6m 33ch
Brewery Triangle (Miles Platting Jct/Brewery Jct/PP West Jct) - unknown whether the Brewery Lines (linking PP W Jct & Brewery Jct) will be electrified.
Philips Park Triangle (PP West Jct/PP South Jct/Baguley Fold Jct) - unknown whether the Baguley Lines (linking PP S Jct & Baguley Fold Jct) and the Ashburys Lines (linking PP W Jct & Ashburys East Jct) will also be electrified.
Ashton Moss North Jct - unknown whether the Crowthorne Lines (towards Denton) will be electrified, and if so, how far.

3. Ashton-under-Lyne (exc.) - Stalybridge Jct - Stalybridge (exc.); 6m 33ch to 7m 63ch
Major obstacle(s): Katherine St Tunnel (6, 55ch to 6m 60ch).

4. Stalybridge Station; 7m 63ch

4a. Stalybridge - Mossley - Greenfield - Standedge Tunnel - Marsden - Slaithwaite - Huddersfield is due to remain unwired until further notice.
The eastern extent of wiring (from Stalybridge) and the western extent of wiring (from Huddersfield) are not yet known.

5. Huddersfield Station; 25m 60ch
Major Obstacles:
Gledholt Tunnels (25m 04ch to 25m 15ch)
Huddersfield Tunnels (25m 20ch to 25m 51ch). Assuming both tunnel pairs will be wired due to the latter's proximity to the throat of Huddersfield Station.

Station is Grade I Listed, so may well require bespoke solution within trainshed (probably headspans).

6. Huddersfield (exc.) - Deighton (inc.); 25m 60ch to 27m 60ch
Major Obstacles: Huddersfield Viaduct - bespoke wall fixings required if 4-tracks planned northwards.

6. Deighton (exc.) - Bradley Jct - Heaton Lodge Jct - Mirfield (inc.); 27m 60ch to 30m 54ch
Major Obstacles: Heaton Lodge Jct (for OLE clearances); Bridges over River Calder

7. Mirfield (exc.) - Mirfield East Jct - Thornhill LNW Jct - Ravensthorpe - Dewsbury (inc.); 30m 54ch to 33m 62ch
Major Obstacles: Thornhill LNW Jct (potentially grade-separated)

8. Dewsbury (exc.) - Batley - Morley (inc.); 33m 62ch to 38m 24ch
Major Obstacles: Dewsbury Viaduct; Batley Viaduct; Morley Tunnel (36m 25ch to 38m 19ch)

9. Morley (exc.) - Cottingley - Copley Hill East Jct (exc.); 38m 24ch to 42m 03ch
Major Obstacles: Copley Hill Jcts (possible grade-separation candidates?)
N.B. Copley Hill East Jct is 185m 02ch from Kings Cross on ECM1.

Neville Hille East Jct to Colton Jct is under the remit of a different principal designer/consultancy to the Huddersfield Line - they have yet to reveal the outcome of whether Leeds-York will also be electrified.

Do let me know if I've missed anything!

Great! Under section 3, I suggest mentioning Guide Bridge West Jn to Stalybridge Jn (2m 08ch).

 

[Halifaxlad]

According to the latest 'Rail' magazine, January 16 - January 29 2019, 870,

Baroness Sugg, the House of Lords transport spokesman, has said numerous things including...

"We are not able to deliver the entire upgrade of the trans-Pennine route within five years"

So it certainly looks like whole electrification is to be delivered at some currently unknown point time, unless of course what Baroness Sugg is referring to is a series of realignments and track straightening.

 

[CdBrux]

As the objective is a route upgrade to deliver more trains and a quicker journey time and electrification is just one part of this (and from what has been understood previously some way down the list of interventions that will make the most difference) can I suggest the progressometer is also taking into account other actions that increase line speed, debottleneck capacities (grade separation, 4 tracking) and so on. I hope 59CosG59 can find the time and energy to also include those into his thorough work!

 

[59CosG95]

As the objective is a route upgrade to deliver more trains and a quicker journey time and electrification is just one part of this (and from what has been understood previously some way down the list of interventions that will make the most difference) can I suggest the progressometer is also taking into account other actions that increase line speed, debottleneck capacities (grade separation, 4 tracking) and so on. I hope 59CosG59 can find the time and energy to also include those into his thorough work!

Why CdBrux, I certainly can! As with the OLE side of things, I'll endeavour to find any civil & structural problems that could be posed on the enhancements scheme between Stalybridge & Huddersfield *cough* Standedge *cough*.

 

[CdBrux]

Why CdBrux, I certainly can!

I hope you also find some time to get down the pub for a beer from time to time as well!

 

[59CosG95]

I hope you also find some time to get down the pub for a beer from time to time as well!

The beer part's more academic (gluten intolerance and all that!), but I'll hopefully be able to make time for a cider at the pub from time to time!

 

[furnessvale]

According to the latest 'Rail' magazine, January 16 - January 29 2019, 870,

Baroness Sugg, the House of Lords transport spokesman, has said numerous things including...

"We are not able to deliver the entire upgrade of the trans-Pennine route within five years"

So it certainly looks like whole electrification is to be delivered at some currently unknown point time, unless of course what Baroness Sugg is referring to is a series of realignments and track straightening.

I see no correlation between those two statements.

It is entirely possible that Baroness Sugg's interpretation of "entire upgrade" means selective wiring and bi-modes and there is no intention EVER to wire throughout.

 

[matacaster]

What about platform 9 at guess + subway under platform 8 & 9 tracks - i this now dead?

 

[Halifaxlad]

I see no correlation between those two statements.

It is entirely possible that Baroness Sugg's interpretation of "entire upgrade" means selective wiring and bi-modes and there is no intention EVER to wire throughout.

Surely the upgrade has to be either electrification or line speed improvements through realignment.

If its true that only half of the upgrade is to be delivered, then either one or both of the above must be planned for later.

 

[AndrewE]

Surely the upgrade has to be either electrification or line speed improvements through realignment.
If its true that only half of the upgrade is to be delivered, then either one or both of the above must be planned for later.

Only if there is enough political pressure to deliver it - there may well be no plan at all. Given where it is I wouldn't hold your breath...

 

[Halifaxlad]

Only if there is enough political pressure to deliver it - there may well be no plan at all. Given where it is I wouldn't hold your breath...

I would be surprised if they did deliver it although I can't imagine it will be delivered before the NPHR line between Leeds & Manchester is completed.

 

[Halifaxlad]

What about platform 9 at guess + subway under platform 8 & 9 tracks - i this now dead?

According to a FOIR entitled "Yorkshire Rail Projects" made on the 3rd September 2018.

"This project ended in 2016, the work will now be included as part of the broader Trans Pennine Route Upgrade (TRU). This was approved by North of England Programme Board. Currently options at Huddersfield station are in development and due to conclude mid-late 2019."

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/yorkshire_rail_projects

 

[CdBrux]

Surely the upgrade has to be either electrification or line speed improvements through realignment.

If its true that only half of the upgrade is to be delivered, then either one or both of the above must be planned for later.

The real, and only, test will be if whatever is proposed achieves the capacity and time objectives. How much, or little, electrification is included is irrelevant.

 

[AndrewE]

The real, and only, test will be if whatever is proposed achieves the capacity and time objectives. How much, or little, electrification is included is irrelevant.

but don't forget the need to reduce pollution across the country, especially in the urban areas. Standedge Tunnel is quite noxious enough already (just running 3-car DMUs!) It's not actually poisonous by the standards of Workplace Exposure Limits, but it is often bad enough to affect my breathing (with asthma, sensitive to acid gases like SO2 and NO2.)

 

[CdBrux]

but don't forget the need to reduce pollution across the country, especially in the urban areas. Standedge Tunnel is quite noxious enough already (just running 3-car DMUs!) It's not actually poisonous by the standards of Workplace Exposure Limits, but it is often bad enough to affect my breathing (with asthma, sensitive to acid gases like SO2 and NO2.)

Rightly or wrongly that is not as far as I know one of the objectives. Of course if the improved service attracts a modal shift from car to train I would assume it helps reduce pollution a little

 

[AndrewE]

Rightly or wrongly that is not as far as I know one of the objectives. Of course if the improved service attracts a modal shift from car to train I would assume it helps reduce pollution a little

No, we don't do joined-up thinking in the UK do we?
The service doesn't need to "improve" in terms of frequency (in fact less frequent might be better if it was more reliable) but lots more capacity is desperately needed. The measure should be seats per hour through the Pennines, not trains per hour.

 

[deltic08]

No, we don't do joined-up thinking in the UK do we?
The service doesn't need to "improve" in terms of frequency (in fact less frequent might be better if it was more reliable) but lots more capacity is desperately needed. The measure should be seats per hour through the Pennines, not trains per hour.

I totally agree with you. Ten minute intervals is ridiculous on two tracks with many intermediate stations. Longer trains at twenty minute intervals is plenty.

The Hull- Liverpools used to go via the Calder Valley. Could they not do that now then that would leave one Scarborough, one Middlesbrough and one Newcastle through the core at twenty minute intervals. Other traffic could then be fitted in between them.

 

[Mollman]

I totally agree with you. Ten minute intervals is ridiculous on two tracks with many intermediate stations. Longer trains at twenty minute intervals is plenty.

The Hull- Liverpools used to go via the Calder Valley. Could they not do that now then that would leave one Scarborough, one Middlesbrough and one Newcastle through the core at twenty minute intervals. Other traffic could then be fitted in between them.

I'd actually send the Hull - Manchester via the Hope Valley as the extra fast service an hour with a half-hourly Hull - Leeds shuttle service. A 15 minute interval worked fine so that would leave 2x Newcastle alongside the 1x Scarborough and 1x Middlesbrough. The Newcastle trains would be at 15/45 to allow for 30 min Liverpool and 30 min Airport but given stopping patterns could possibly give a 20 mins interval with the XC service between Leeds and Newcastle.

 

[Killingworth]

I'd actually send the Hull - Manchester via the Hope Valley as the extra fast service an hour with a half-hourly Hull - Leeds shuttle service. A 15 minute interval worked fine so that would leave 2x Newcastle alongside the 1x Scarborough and 1x Middlesbrough. The Newcastle trains would be at 15/45 to allow for 30 min Liverpool and 30 min Airport but given stopping patterns could possibly give a 20 mins interval with the XC service between Leeds and Newcastle.

Hull - Manchester used to come via Hope Valley. Congestion Sheffield - Meadowhall might impact on that as a good plan. It certainly does on TPE Cleethorpes - Manchester. Might be helpful to split a 2 x 185 at Doncaster in that case, half to Cleethorpes, half to Hull but that would open a whole new can of worms with reliable splitting at a busy station!

 

[edwin_m]

Getting extra trains across Doncaster is a problem too, though I guess it could replace the Sheffield-Hull. Perhaps a Hull-Leeds shuttle could do more, like linking with the Blackpool or one of the Manchesters?

 

[Class 170101]

I would have said there is demand as far as Doncaster for a 6 car train but east to Cleethorpes or Hull would be better as a split train. However I agree there are likely to be issues at Doncaster with this. Is either Kirk Sandall or Hatfield and Stainforth suitable as alternatives locations instead for splitting / joining of trains?

 

[Killingworth]

I would have said there is demand as far as Doncaster for a 6 car train but east to Cleethorpes or Hull would be better as a split train. However I agree there are likely to be issues at Doncaster with this. Is either Kirk Sandall or Hatfield and Stainforth suitable as alternatives locations instead for splitting / joining of trains?

It's the 'what if' factor. At Nottingham the split 158 seems to have plenty of room to be kept on 3b or stabled elsewhere before going to Matlock, Worksop or wherever. There seems to be a good lay over period built in on most of the timings.

However a split 185 at Doncaster is rather different. Either or both the Hull and Cleethorpes westbound sections will sometimes be late. One section would then be blocking a busy platform, or have to be kept somewhere outside to await space. That wouldn't please those wanting to catch a connection.

That would be a lesser problem eastbound where it would split and both halves would proceed late. Splitting at smaller stations wouldn't work well for those joining and leaving at Doncaster, particularly with a long connection time and wanting refreshments.

Unfortunately the reason why this sort of operation probably isn't done more often is because it doesn't work well enough in the real operational world.