Transport for the North Strategic Transport Plan

[plcd1]

Transport for the North have launched a consultation today on the Strategic Transport Plan. It covers a range of proposals for rail services in the North.

http://transportforthenorth.com/stp/

Over the next 30 years, we want to transform our road, rail, sea and air connections to help drive long term economic growth. Our Strategic Transport Plan explains the need for investment in transport across the North and identifies the priority areas for improved connectivity. The key messages will give you an overview of our plans and the benefits a transformed Northern transport network will bring.

Videos and the full plan and other summaries are available on the above link.

 

[furnessvale]

At a first skim read, I am at a loss to know if it gets us anywhere.

I am hoping that a later in depth read will change my mind for the better!

 

[Starmill]

I don't think it does particularly.

5 minutes off Manchester to Liverpool and 10 mintues off Manchester to Leeds. New 'high speed' route from Manchester Airport to Liverpool, including triangle to allow London to Liverpool on the new dedicated route, but this is via Warrington and no inidication of how it will be built. Manchester to Leeds route via Bradford but again no real indication of how. Sheffield to Leeds services via HS2.

Seems like an immense amount of money for a mere 5 minutes off Manchester to Liverpool, given the need to build through Warrington.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All a bit pie in the sky.

A more sensible plan in my book would be:-
- Electrification of most of the network
- Platform extensions to allow for 160 or 240m trains on main lines and a minimum of 80m in all other locations
- City S-Bahn type services for all the Northern cities with timetables, so far as feasible, on the Merseyrail model of high frequency, high acceleration, all stations type simplified networks. Infrastructure works done where necessary to support this.
- Expansion of Metrolink, Merseyrail, Supertram etc and possibly new tram systems for other cities. One specific one here: rebuild Liverpool Central to have two island platforms.
- Unified German-style ticketing in the cities or possibly zonally across the North
- Improved early and late timetables
- No line or station with a frequency lower than 1tph other than the Cumbrian Coast, Lancaster to the S&C and the S&C itself which would be 0.5tph. All services pure clockface at all times, though where train lengthening could not provide peak capacity peak extras may be used.
- Improved planned connections.
- Deal with the "Parly issue" where present - if it isn't worth 1tph/0.5tph as appropriate, close it.
- Sunday service on all routes. Sunday in the working week for all new staff to support this, building up over time as the staff number grows to support it.

Basically you'd be looking to create something a bit like Nederlandse Spoorwegen in an area that, while not quite as flat, is not all that dissimilar in its transport need.

High speed internally to the north is just "buzzword bingo". What is needed is huge amounts of capacity, good connectivity (as the web-style layout of cities means you can never have direct everywhere to everywhere) and good value and simple ticketing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Once all that lot's done, then consider new-builds.

 

[pemma]

New 'high speed' route from Manchester Airport to Liverpool,

...

Seems like an immense amount of money for a mere 5 minutes off Manchester to Liverpool, given the need to build through Warrington.

It looks like it's a new line between Warrington and the HS2 line just south of Manchester Airport. I can't see that going down well locally given a fast Liverpool to Manchester Airport and Manchester service can be achieved using an upgrade of existing lines and there's already a lot of objections to HS2.

 

[Bantamzen]

It looks like it's a new line between Warrington and the HS2 line just south of Manchester Airport. I can't see that going down well locally given a fast Liverpool to Manchester Airport and Manchester service can be achieved using an upgrade of existing lines and there's already a lot of objections to HS2.

That depends on how you sell it. A lot of people who live in the area might baulk at the thought of HS2 passing through, but give them a fast link to the Airport that might boost their house prices (as links to high volume airports often do) and some will buy into it in a flash!!

 

[cuccir]

You fancy a job as Transport Secretary Bletchleyite?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think they've held off suggesting specific routes for Liverpool-Manchester Airport and Manchester-Bradford-Leeds to avoid the torrent of Nimbys that would descend.
But it also renders the exercise meaningless if you can't assess costs and benefits of specific routes.
They show the HS2 connections that have passive approval, but none of the equally important connections from new-build to the classic network.
It's a bit like Brexit: if you just assert it is "right" you save yourself a whole lot of analysis and justification work.
Plus, as John Prescott seems to have twigged by walking out, TfN have no particular powers or funds to make things happen.
If there is a list of CP6 recommendations for Network Rail I missed it.
Their "timeline" is little more than a list of HS2 completion and current franchise end dates.
They've given themselves another year to write a business case, but it seems more like kicking the can down the road a bit further.

 

[pemma]

That depends on how you sell it. A lot of people who live in the area might baulk at the thought of HS2 passing through, but give them a fast link to the Airport that might boost their house prices (as links to high volume airports often do) and some will buy into it in a flash!!

Can't see the fast train to the Airport stopping at intermediate places between Warrington and Manchester Airport, otherwise it wouldn't exactly be a fast service to central Manchester. If it is going to call at additional places why not join HS2 on to existing upgraded rail lines?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You fancy a job as Transport Secretary Bletchleyite?

Hee hee, would love a go!

 

[Moonshot]

Hee hee, would love a go!

Invest in a tin hat before you apply

 

[Bletchleyite]

Invest in a tin hat before you apply

 

[Bantamzen]

Can't see the fast train to the Airport stopping at intermediate places between Warrington and Manchester Airport, otherwise it wouldn't exactly be a fast service to central Manchester. If it is going to call at additional places why not join HS2 on to existing upgraded rail lines?

It wouldn't necessarily need to, it could for the most part follow the M56 after arching off to the south-east from Warrington. But it would mean a lot of the area to the south of Warrington from Stockton Heath through the Tatton constituency would be within a shortish drive of a link, even though they might never use it. Just as long as they could add "fast rail link" to the "short drive" when referring to the airport's vicinity in the descriptions for their homes to add a bit more value!

 

[Mollman]

All a bit pie in the sky.

A more sensible plan in my book would be:-
- Electrification of most of the network
- Platform extensions to allow for 160 or 240m trains on main lines and a minimum of 80m in all other locations
- City S-Bahn type services for all the Northern cities with timetables, so far as feasible, on the Merseyrail model of high frequency, high acceleration, all stations type simplified networks. Infrastructure works done where necessary to support this.
- Expansion of Metrolink, Merseyrail, Supertram etc and possibly new tram systems for other cities. One specific one here: rebuild Liverpool Central to have two island platforms.
- Unified German-style ticketing in the cities or possibly zonally across the North
- Improved early and late timetables
- No line or station with a frequency lower than 1tph other than the Cumbrian Coast, Lancaster to the S&C and the S&C itself which would be 0.5tph. All services pure clockface at all times, though where train lengthening could not provide peak capacity peak extras may be used.
- Improved planned connections.
- Deal with the "Parly issue" where present - if it isn't worth 1tph/0.5tph as appropriate, close it.
- Sunday service on all routes. Sunday in the working week for all new staff to support this, building up over time as the staff number grows to support it.

Basically you'd be looking to create something a bit like Nederlandse Spoorwegen in an area that, while not quite as flat, is not all that dissimilar in its transport need.

High speed internally to the north is just "buzzword bingo". What is needed is huge amounts of capacity, good connectivity (as the web-style layout of cities means you can never have direct everywhere to everywhere) and good value and simple ticketing.

Here here. Only thing I'd change is S&C to be hourly alternating between Leeds and Manchester.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Here here. Only thing I'd change is S&C to be hourly alternating between Leeds and Manchester.

Want to reply but don't want to drag us too far off course.

I'd rather see hourly Carlisle-Leeds and Two Hourly Settle-Manchester. Timed to connect.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Here here. Only thing I'd change is S&C to be hourly alternating between Leeds and Manchester.

Interesting idea. I think I'd be more likely to portion work that with 2 x 2-car trains splitting and joining at Hellifield, but keeping with the 2-hourly frequency to keep freight paths and to tally with the low demand?

Actually you could get a nice pattern going there, the kind of thing the Germans like on rural lines.

Two units leave Leeds for Hellifield. The front set continues to Lancaster. The rear set waits for the arrival of a single set from Manchester via Clitheroe (which started as 2 sets at Manchester, but leaves one behind at Clitheroe), coupling on the back. Those two sets head for Carlisle. Reverse it all in the other direction.

Brand it all nicely and publicise it to death.

 

[pemma]

It wouldn't necessarily need to, it could for the most part follow the M56 after arching off to the south-east from Warrington. But it would mean a lot of the area to the south of Warrington from Stockton Heath through the Tatton constituency would be within a shortish drive of a link, even though they might never use it. Just as long as they could add "fast rail link" to the "short drive" when referring to the airport's vicinity in the descriptions for their homes to add a bit more value!

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. The airport's expansion caused the value of property in the area to decrease due to the extra noise pollution for little extra convenience - having frequent direct flights to places like Dubai from a nearby airport isn't a selling point for someone buying a terrace house! If you mean property in Warrington will increase in value then I agree because it's well out of the airport's noise path and will have a better link to the airport. However, as Warrington's availability of 'not too expensive' housing is rare in the area I'm not sure property prices in Warrington increasing should be sold as a benefit of 'Northern Powerhouse Rail'.

People 'Park & Rail' all the time as it is and it causes congestion on the roads so again increased 'Park & Rail' availability might not be a good selling point.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. The airport's expansion caused the value of property in the area to decrease due to the extra noise pollution for little extra convenience - having frequent direct flights to places like Dubai from a nearby airport isn't a selling point for someone buying a terrace house! If you mean property in Warrington will increase in value then I agree because it's well out of the airport's noise path and will have a better link to the airport. However, as Warrington's availability of 'not too expensive' housing is rare in the area I'm not sure property prices in Warrington increasing should be sold as a benefit of 'Northern Powerhouse Rail'.

People 'Park & Rail' all the time as it is and it causes congestion on the roads so again increased 'Park & Rail' availability might not be a good selling point.

Sorry, I thought the smilie at the end might have helped. I wasn't referring to terrace houses in Warrington, but jokingly about the well off of Stockton Heath and beyond who might benefit with a update to their house descriptions.

 

[HSTEd]

Still not much information on the site of the Warrington Station.

I still think a reconstructed Warrington Central is your best bet - the approaches are far higher speed than anything you can get out of Bank Quay Low Level.
And the line to the west of Warrington can potentially be used as part of the alignment

 

[MarkyT]

Here's a suggestion for getting through Warrington, using the Latchford viaduct route to get through built up areas to the east of the town then taking a new less tightly curved route under the WCML across some industrial land near Bank Quay station towards Widnes. New low level Bank Quay platforms the south end of existing station. Minimal demolition, especially residential. Minimum curve radius as shown just west of Latchford Viaduct approx 800m.

 

[Senex]

Here's a suggestion for getting through Warrington, using the Latchford viaduct route to get through built up areas to the east of the town then taking a new less tightly curved route under the WCML across some industrial land near Bank Quay station towards Widnes. New low level Bank Quay platforms the south end of existing station. Minimal demolition, especially residential. Minimum curve radius as shown just west of Latchford Viaduct approx 800m.
View attachment 41604

So that curve will bring speed down to below 90 mph even with the most generous allowances for cant and cant deficiency.

 

[DanTrain]

All a bit pie in the sky.
- City S-Bahn type services for all the Northern cities with timetables, so far as feasible, on the Merseyrail model of high frequency, high acceleration, all stations type simplified networks. Infrastructure works done where necessary to support this.
- Expansion of Metrolink, Merseyrail, Supertram etc and possibly new tram systems for other cities. One specific one here: rebuild Liverpool Central to have two island platforms.

How much money do you have, one or the other please!? Seeing as Manchester and Sheffield already have trams, surely just expand them, same with T&W metro, only Leeds is in proper needs of a Merseyrail-style system. Simplify the tickets to create one through ticket and there we go. A few other cities could also do with trams/metro in my opinion, Hull for example (any way to get out of Hull quicker )

 

[Mollman]

How much money do you have, one or the other please!? Seeing as Manchester and Sheffield already have trams, surely just expand them, same with T&W metro, only Leeds is in proper needs of a Merseyrail-style system. Simplify the tickets to create one through ticket and there we go. A few other cities could also do with trams/metro in my opinion, Hull for example (any way to get out of Hull quicker )

Metrolink in someways needs splitting in two with the road based routes staying as a tram and the ex-rail routes becoming more like the T&W metro with expansion onto routes like the Atherton line and Marple.

 

[MarkyT]

So that curve will bring speed down to below 90 mph even with the most generous allowances for cant and cant deficiency.

Agreed, about 3km out from Warrington at which I assume all trains would probably stop. The curve might be eased a little if the viaduct was reconstructed, which it might have to be anyway due to design or condition. The current viaduct is perfectly straight. A replacement might allow the curve to start a little to the east so the new structure is on the curve. 1200m radius might be possible in that case. What might that give? 120MPH under similar assumptions perhaps? Alternatively The new line could avoid the city centre and other rail connections entirely, or be in tunnel under it, in which case there is the considerable addition expense of an underground station perhaps.

 

[snowball]

That depends on how you sell it. A lot of people who live in the area might baulk at the thought of HS2 passing through, but give them a fast link to the Airport that might boost their house prices (as links to high volume airports often do) and some will buy into it in a flash!!

But there's clearly not going to be a station at, say, Lymm. Having intermediate stations would destroy the high speed. The only stations will be Liverpool, Warrington, the Airport and Piccadilly.

 

[Altfish]

Just a few problems...

• It is controlled by London
• There is no £££££££

 

[DanTrain]

Metrolink in someways needs splitting in two with the road based routes staying as a tram and the ex-rail routes becoming more like the T&W metro with expansion onto routes like the Atherton line and Marple.

I could see that, with the rail based bits joining a Merseyrail style system. However, the whole beauty of a tram is that it goes into the city centre where it’s actually convenient. Tram-Trains anyone? (because they’re going so well across the Pennines!)

 

[B&I]

To those who question why NPR is needed,
1. Do you support HS2? If so, why should the cities of the north have super-super connections to London, but not to each other?
2. The consensus of opinion on here seems to be that the existing lines are too full for there to be any substantial improvements to services round Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds. How will better local services be achieved without NPR?

 

[LOL The Irony]

They should build a new Woodhead route.