Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

[Rhydgaled]

The newer DMUs probably have a future use somewhere else, whilst the 153s would almost certainly be destined for the scrapyard if they were replaced today. In fact, that's part of the reason for the change of plans - originally 170s were going to replace the 153s, but EMR are desperate for them

I would be interested to know how EMR were expecting Southern to be able to release the 171s (which I believe was EMR's original planned source before TfW's 170s became available (presumably as a sub-lease, since I'm pretty sure TfW had the 170s on a lease right through to the end of the planned 15yr KeolisAmey franchise and beyond)) - TfW keeping the 153s instead of the 170s will certainly get EMR out of a hole on that one.

Now, getting back to FLIRTs...

I suspect that the conversion of the 231s to electric or bimode is relatively straightforward. However, were to be a widespread expansion of electrification in South Wales, it may be that it proves operationally more convenient to procure some more electric or bi-mode trains and then sell, lease or reallocate the 231s. The design of the 231s, with only passive provision for a conversion to 25kV power, is just fine - it avoids the need to spend more money now on something that might not be needed later.

I too suspect that conversion of the 231s to electric or bimode is relatively straightforward. However, I'm not sure if this has been confirmed and some have suggested it may still be quite difficult/expensive. As long as the 231s do indeed have passive provision for electric operation from the 25kV AC OHLE then I'm more confused than concerned that they weren't ordered as bi-modes from the start.

 

[penguin8967]

Are there any set weekday diagrams for 231s on the Rhymney line at the moment or is it random?

 

[sd0733]

231010 had a less than successful trip up the valleys this morning on:https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:51222/2023-04-14/detailed#allox_id=0 with fire bells sounding and smoke coming from the engine compartment.

 

[AdamWW]

231010 had a less than successful trip up the valleys this morning on:https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:51222/2023-04-14/detailed#allox_id=0 with fire bells sounding and smoke coming from the engine compartment.

Looking at that realtimetrains listing, maybe that's what happens when they activate the time travel function.

 

[Annetts key]

Looking at that realtimetrains listing, maybe that's what happens when they activate the time travel function.

Maybe the flux capacitor overheated

 

[56xx]

231 009 in service for the first time today 2P01 0616 CDF - PEN

 

[MikePJ]

231 009 in service for the first time today 2P01 0616 CDF - PEN

Indeed! https://twitter.com/Buzz37295/status/1648585021106659328?s=20

I happened to see it approaching Canton Depot a few minutes ago.

 

[anthony263]

Watched a video of a 756 on test at Newport accelerating away under battery power. Pretty good acceleration quicker than a dmu

 

[MikePJ]

There’s a long piece in Rail Express this month about TfW. It explains the planned stock cascades for the 231s and 756s in a lot of detail - paraphrasing, the timeline looks like this:

• 231s will enter service on Penarth-Rhymney trains, allowing 769s to be withdrawn. Driver training is in progress and currently (at time of going to press) allows 4 x 231s to be in service each day. Eight are needed to release all the 769s.
• 398s are due to enter service "next year" (i.e. 2024)
• Once the 398s enter traffic, this releases a load of 150/2s, which will then be allocated to Penarth-Rhymney and the 231s will go to "routes currently operated by 170s" (i.e. Maesteg - Cheltenham and/or Ebbw Vale)
• Finally, when sufficient electrification work has been done to support the 756s, they will start to appear on the Penarth, Barry Island and Bridgend (via Barry) services.

There is a note that the plan is for 756s to operate on electric (overhead and battery) north of Cardiff. However, the article also says that "TfW Head of Operational Readiness (CVL = Core Valley Lines) Andrew Gazzard tells Rail Express that there has not yet been any thought into using the 756s in purely diesel mode" and then goes on to say that driver training on 756s won't start until later this year - fault-free running tests are being done by drivers from GB Railfreight.

 

[AdamWW]

There’s a long piece in Rail Express this month about TfW. It explains the planned stock cascades for the 231s and 756s in a lot of detail - paraphrasing, the timeline looks like this:

• 231s will enter service on Penarth-Rhymney trains, allowing 769s to be withdrawn. Driver training is in progress and currently (at time of going to press) allows 4 x 231s to be in service each day. Eight are needed to release all the 769s.
• 398s are due to enter service "next year" (i.e. 2024)
• Once the 398s enter traffic, this releases a load of 150/2s, which will then be allocated to Penarth-Rhymney and the 231s will go to "routes currently operated by 170s" (i.e. Maesteg - Cheltenham and/or Ebbw Vale)
• Finally, when sufficient electrification work has been done to support the 756s, they will start to appear on the Penarth, Barry Island and Bridgend (via Barry) services.

There is a note that the plan is for 756s to operate on electric (overhead and battery) north of Cardiff. However, the article also says that "TfW Head of Operational Readiness (CVL = Core Valley Lines) Andrew Gazzard tells Rail Express that there has not yet been any thought into using the 756s in purely diesel mode" and then goes on to say that driver training on 756s won't start until later this year - fault-free running tests are being done by drivers from GB Railfreight.

Fascinating - so Penarth to Rhymney goes over to FLIRTs, then back to 150's, then FLIRTs again.

I'm not quite sure how that plays with the "look at our new trains" leaflets being waved around when the 231s started running....

 

[Peter Sarf]

There’s a long piece in Rail Express this month about TfW. It explains the planned stock cascades for the 231s and 756s in a lot of detail - paraphrasing, the timeline looks like this:

• 231s will enter service on Penarth-Rhymney trains, allowing 769s to be withdrawn. Driver training is in progress and currently (at time of going to press) allows 4 x 231s to be in service each day. Eight are needed to release all the 769s.
• 398s are due to enter service "next year" (i.e. 2024)
• Once the 398s enter traffic, this releases a load of 150/2s, which will then be allocated to Penarth-Rhymney and the 231s will go to "routes currently operated by 170s" (i.e. Maesteg - Cheltenham and/or Ebbw Vale)
• Finally, when sufficient electrification work has been done to support the 756s, they will start to appear on the Penarth, Barry Island and Bridgend (via Barry) services.

There is a note that the plan is for 756s to operate on electric (overhead and battery) north of Cardiff. However, the article also says that "TfW Head of Operational Readiness (CVL = Core Valley Lines) Andrew Gazzard tells Rail Express that there has not yet been any thought into using the 756s in purely diesel mode" and then goes on to say that driver training on 756s won't start until later this year - fault-free running tests are being done by drivers from GB Railfreight.

So. I read that to mean that no 150/2s will become spare/surplus until after the routes 398s are to operate have been electrified AND after the Rhymney lines are electrified for 756s. And that does not look to be until at least a year from now. In the meantime 769s are going asap and then 170s.

 

[Jonny]

I would be interested to know how EMR were expecting Southern to be able to release the 171s (which I believe was EMR's original planned source before TfW's 170s became available (presumably as a sub-lease, since I'm pretty sure TfW had the 170s on a lease right through to the end of the planned 15yr KeolisAmey franchise and beyond)) - TfW keeping the 153s instead of the 170s will certainly get EMR out of a hole on that one.

It's similar to transferring a lease on a house or other premises, the landlord might by mutual agreement accept a substitute tenant who wanted to take over the premises and release the old tenant; there is no reason why this could not be expanded to train operating companies instead of tenants with the agreement of a rolling stock company (with a train/unit/etc. instead of a fixed premises). Then there is the matter of the DafT oops I meant DfT wanting to get the Southern ones moved.

 

[56xx]

231 011 in service today on 2P00 0546 CDF-PEN

 

[The_Train]

231 011 in service today on 2P00 0546 CDF-PEN

I make that all 11 units having carried passengers at some point now

 

[56xx]

I make that all 11 units having carried passengers at some point now

Yes 231 011 has been reported as being in passenger service previously but I can find no record to confirm.

I travelled in it today from Rhymney on the 1427 to Penarth and can confirm that all 11 have now entered service and I have travelled in each one.

 

[StripeyNick]

Yes 231 011 has been reported as being in passenger service previously but I can find no record to confirm.

I travelled in it today from Rhymney on the 1427 to Penarth and can confirm that all 11 have now entered service and I have travelled in each one.

I've been keeping tabs on 011 every day and unless it hasn't shown up anywhere, it hasn't worked before and a friend has been doing the same elsewhere and we've been of the same opinion

 

[PaulHarding150]

Fascinating - so Penarth to Rhymney goes over to FLIRTs, then back to 150's, then FLIRTs again.

I'm not quite sure how that plays with the "look at our new trains" leaflets being waved around when the 231s started running....

Madness.

It would be far more logical to move the 150s from Merthyr/Aberdare/Treherbert to cover for the 170s.

The average traveller won’t notice the difference between a 231 and a 756 but they will notice when all the units are 150s.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Good to see five units in service today, which I believe is now the norm?
Two of the four remaining 769s trundling on, and a couple of 150s.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Madness.

It would be far more logical to move the 150s from Merthyr/Aberdare/Treherbert to cover for the 170s.

The average traveller won’t notice the difference between a 231 and a 756 but they will notice when all the units are 150s.

I cannot help feeling that the desire to be shot of the 769s first is what has skewed the logic. But it also seems a tantalizingly long wait is required before there is enough knitting for the 756s to get into service - have Stadler been too quick !.

 

[Hwnt52]

I've been keeping tabs on 011 every day and unless it hasn't shown up anywhere, it hasn't worked before and a friend has been doing the same elsewhere and we've been of the same opinion

231011 worked the Rhymney-Rhymney via Heath Junction test on 26 January and that is the only time I have seen it on the line until it turned up yesterday. I don't think 231009 had been on the line at all until it turned up on Monday.

Photo shows 231011 at Lisvane on 26 January.

 

[StripeyNick]

231011 worked the Rhymney-Rhymney via Heath Junction test on 26 January and that is the only time I have seen it on the line until it turned up yesterday. I don't think 231009 had been on the line at all until it turned up on Monday.
Photo shows 231011 at Lisvane on 26 January.View attachment 133467

That ties in with my records too. 011 had only been on test (I think it may have worked up on 20th January too) and yes, 009 had never visited the branch until Wednesday

 

[Hwnt52]

That ties in with my records too. 011 had only been on test (I think it may have worked up on 20th January too) and yes, 009 had never visited the branch until Wednesday

Don't know why I put Monday in my comment about 231009 Nick since I took a photo of it at Bargoed on its first day on Wednesday. I tĥink old age is getting to me.

 

[Meerkat]

Is there a toilet against that big blank wall behind the cab?

 

[AdamWW]

Is there a toilet against that big blank wall behind the cab?

No. Equipment on either side of a corridor. (Hence, I presume, the hatch).

That's one thing I don't like about the FLIRT design - even in countries where they are relaxed about allowing such things you can't really get a forwards view from the passenger area.

 

[Meerkat]

No. Equipment on either side of a corridor. (Hence, I presume, the hatch).

That's one thing I don't like about the FLIRT design - even in countries where they are relaxed about allowing such things you can't really get a forwards view from the passenger area.

Blimey - that plus the power modules is a lot of non-passenger length (though I guess if it doesn't have passenger doors it doesnt need to be platformed, subject to signals and pointwork)

 

[MikePJ]

Blimey - that plus the power modules is a lot of non-passenger length (though I guess if it doesn't have passenger doors it doesnt need to be platformed, subject to signals and pointwork)

FLIRTS are low-floor, so the traction electronics is in these compartments behind the cabs whereas in other trains they’d be under the floor. It’s most noticeable on the 745s, where there’s a pair of electronics compartments in the middle of the train as well as at each end.

 

[3973EXL]

21/04 756002 Newport 5Q80 Swindon - Canton

21/04 756004 Newport 3Q32 Swindon - Newport 3Q33 Newport - Swindon

 

[Meerkat]

FLIRTS are low-floor, so the traction electronics is in these compartments behind the cabs whereas in other trains they’d be under the floor. It’s most noticeable on the 745s, where there’s a pair of electronics compartments in the middle of the train as well as at each end.

So they have significantly fewer seats than equivalent length Sprinters?

 

[PaulHarding150]

So they have significantly fewer seats than equivalent length Sprinters?

Fewer seats than 2x2 car 150s yes, but remember the disabled toilets, the wheelchair spaces and bike spaces.

(Obviously refurbished 150s have those)

They are however from a passenger (and date I say it driver and conductor) perspectives a significant step up.

 

[Meerkat]

Fewer seats than 2x2 car 150s yes, but remember the disabled toilets, the wheelchair spaces and bike spaces.

(Obviously refurbished 150s have those)

They are however from a passenger (and date I say it driver and conductor) perspectives a significant step up.

Yeah, I think I am extrapolating onto all the cries for FLIRTs everywhere, including places where the trains are crowded.