Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

[ABB125]

Isn't Rhymney still planned to be served by four 756s per hour? Why should the TAM lines be served any differently to Rhymney?

Because (some of) the Rhymney line services run through to Bridgend, which is a ~55mile round trip away from the wires at Queen Street and outwith the capabilities of the class 398s. Yes, an argument can be made about why it's Rhymney services which run through, rather than (say) Aberdare services, but I suspect you'd then be asking "why should the Aberdare line be served any differently to Merthyr, Treherbert and Rhymney?". Operationally, the TAM lines are much more integrated with each other, by virtue of sharing lots of track as far as Pontypridd/Abercynon, whereas the Rhymney line only meets another route at Heath, so it makes sense for the TAM lines to be served in a similar manner to each other, then Rhymney is the "odd one out".

231s, 755s, 756s all have different numbers of doors, otherwise I would agree it would make sense for 231s with pantographs to become 755s or 756s depending on what (if any) changes are made inside the power pack module vehicle (aka 'thrash cupboard').

I thought both TfW FLIRTs were 2-1-(1)-2 doors per carriage (745 and 755 being all 1s, 777 being 1-2-2-1)? But with the 756 being a tri-mode, a 231 with a pantograph would be closer to a 755 than a 756.

End cars are 2 doors per side on all TfW FLIRTs. On class 231s, the middle cars have one door per side, so 6 doors total per side across 4 cars (2-1-1-2). The class 756 middle cars without toilets (only found in the 4-car sets) have an additional door, so 7 doors per side for 4-car (2-2-1-2) and 5 doors per side for 3-car (2-1-2). (For completeness, class 755s are 1 door per car per side.)

 

[berneyarms]

Isn't Rhymney still planned to be served by four 756s per hour? Why should the TAM lines be served any differently to Rhymney?

231s, 755s, 756s all have different numbers of doors, otherwise I would agree it would make sense for 231s with pantographs to become 755s or 756s depending on what (if any) changes are made inside the power pack module vehicle (aka 'thrash cupboard').

This is just you speculating all over again - can we please keep this thread to what is happening? There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the rollout of the Class 398s will be changed.

 

[EveningStarr]

Hi all, some good points made about the use of FLIRTs and tram-trains. I've made a speculative discussion thread here if anyone's got any further comments or ideas they wish to share.

 

[CapitalStar378]

Agree with this. I doubt TFW bought the current number of 398's on the basis that Cardiff Crossrail might just happen. I'd imagine they'd need more in the future, but is Taffs Well big enough to accomodate more 398's?

The lack of toilet issue has grown greater coverage from the media again lately. There's many arguments for and against. I do think the 756's are better suited to the longer journeys up to the very top of the Valleys.
I do wonder if the 398 usage will be switched to cover shorter journeys on the network with some possible changes to the routings if the battery power isn't sufficient.
Pontypridd - Cardiff
City line
Coryton-Penarth
Caerphilly - Cardiff

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if all of the 231's never make it onto the Maesteg/Ebbw Vale/Cheltenham lines. The fuel range is terrible, hence probably the investigations on converting them.

During the TfW interview with James Price (haven’t got the link sorry) he stated that Taff’s Well had capacity for double the current planned number of 398s.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Isn't Rhymney still planned to be served by four 756s per hour? Why should the TAM lines be served any differently to Rhymney?

231s, 755s, 756s all have different numbers of doors, otherwise I would agree it would make sense for 231s with pantographs to become 755s or 756s depending on what (if any) changes are made inside the power pack module vehicle (aka 'thrash cupboard').

This is just you speculating all over again - can we please keep this thread to what is happening?

I'm pretty sure four 756s per hour to Rhymney was certainly the plan when the details of the KeolisAmey/TfW franchise was announced. As far as I know, that is still the plan, and the four-car 231s, 755s and 756s do all have different numbers of doors. The majority of the post you quoted is therefore about what is happening (or at least talked about within TfW eg. 231s being (for want of a better word) 'electrified').

I thought both TfW FLIRTs were 2-1-(1)-2 doors per carriage (745 and 755 being all 1s)?

Close. As you say, the TfW FLIRTs have 2 doors per side on each driving car, and the GA units only have one door per side. However, on the 4-car 756s there are two doors per side on one of the intermediate coaches, while the middle of a 231 is more like a 755.

Hi all, some good points made about the use of FLIRTs and tram-trains. I've made a speculative discussion thread here if anyone's got any further comments or ideas they wish to share.

Thanks; this one, I assume? I'll cross-post some replies re. TfW Metro stock deployment over there.

 

[800001]

During the TfW interview with James Price (haven’t got the link sorry) he stated that Taff’s Well had capacity for double the current planned number of 398s.

Not doubting what James said, but the depot area looks full of trams now, and I don’t think they are all delivered yet.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Not doubting what James said, but the depot area looks full of trams now, and I don’t think they are all delivered yet.

Of course as no 398s are in service yet most will be at Taff's Wells Depot hence it looks full at the minute.

 

[800001]

Of course as no 398s are in service yet most will be at Taff's Wells Depot hence it looks full at the minute.

As full as it will Look on a night when they all arrive back after service.
Unless they outstable some each night?
And am fully aware none in are in use!!!

 

[John R]

As full as it will Look on a night when they all arrive back after service.
Unless they outstable some each night?
And am fully aware none in are in use!!!

Some will be stabled at Treherbert each night, as is currently the case.

 

[DannyMich2018]

As full as it will Look on a night when they all arrive back after service.
Unless they outstable some each night?
And am fully aware none in are in use!!!

Hopefully things will change when they do enter service whenever what will be.

 

[val_screamz]

Hey, long time no see! You may or may not remember me from the launch day, I decided to poke about this forum shortly after.

I've returned because earlier today I was returning to Merthyr Tydfil from Cardiff Central on 756102, taking a friend of mine on their first ever train trip. Everything seemed fine, we were working on a fun movie idea, and nothing was out of place, but between Pontypridd and Abercynon, something strange happened...

There was an audible bang from above the train, and after that saw sparks out the window on the right. The train then quickly came to a halt (likely an emergency breaking). I overheard the conductor and the driver talking (as I was sat at the very rear of the train), and apparently there were warning lights that came up in the driver's dashboard. Afterwards, the conductor contacted control, and then shortly after, the train started moving at a slower pace, powered by the power pack (I believe it was running on diesel, but I'm not exactly sure). We arrived at Merthyr Tydfil late at 15:02.

I've been speculating what has happened since. Me and another friend think the pantograph broke, potentially snapped off, but I want to hear some more insight on what could've happened, and I'm wondering if anyone was there for the occasion too? I've never experienced a train break down like this, but mind you, I haven't been so lucky lately - that disaster trip getting back to Cardiff Central on Easter Monday after London Paddington shut was a nightmare...

Anyway, that's it for RailUK Forums bedtime stories XD.

P.S, the journey can be found here. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W17855/2025-05-03/detailed#allox_id=0

 

[Peter Sarf]

Hey, long time no see! You may or may not remember me from the launch day, I decided to poke about this forum shortly after.

I've returned because earlier today I was returning to Merthyr Tydfil from Cardiff Central on 756102, taking a friend of mine on their first ever train trip. Everything seemed fine, we were working on a fun movie idea, and nothing was out of place, but between Pontypridd and Abercynon, something strange happened...

There was an audible bang from above the train, and after that saw sparks out the window on the right. The train then quickly came to a halt (likely an emergency breaking). I overheard the conductor and the driver talking (as I was sat at the very rear of the train), and apparently there were warning lights that came up in the driver's dashboard. Afterwards, the conductor contacted control, and then shortly after, the train started moving at a slower pace, powered by the power pack (I believe it was running on diesel, but I'm not exactly sure). We arrived at Merthyr Tydfil late at 15:02.

I've been speculating what has happened since. Me and another friend think the pantograph broke, potentially snapped off, but I want to hear some more insight on what could've happened, and I'm wondering if anyone was there for the occasion too? I've never experienced a train break down like this, but mind you, I haven't been so lucky lately - that disaster trip getting back to Cardiff Central on Easter Monday after London Paddington shut was a nightmare...

Anyway, that's it for RailUK Forums bedtime stories XD.

P.S, the journey can be found here. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W17855/2025-05-03/detailed#allox_id=0

Well. Firstly from that RTT entry it looks like the unit went on to recover some of the time it lost. So seems healthy. The same unit then went on to work on this. If it was damaged I guess it would have come off the diagram at Cardiff but it went onwards to Aberdare. So the unit was probably fine. I doubt it would have continued in service if there was even a possibility of any slight damage.

Load bang from above. I had an experience like this on the North London line last year. There was also a bright flash that almost seemed to make it into the coach !. It transpired that a pigeon had managed to short out the OHLE, presumably to the coach body. Not much left of the pigeon. After a faff for what seemed like an age the electric only unit (class 378) got going again late but otherwise fine.

 

[tfw756rider]

Hey, long time no see! You may or may not remember me from the launch day, I decided to poke about this forum shortly after.

I've returned because earlier today I was returning to Merthyr Tydfil from Cardiff Central on 756102, taking a friend of mine on their first ever train trip. Everything seemed fine, we were working on a fun movie idea, and nothing was out of place, but between Pontypridd and Abercynon, something strange happened...

There was an audible bang from above the train, and after that saw sparks out the window on the right. The train then quickly came to a halt (likely an emergency breaking). I overheard the conductor and the driver talking (as I was sat at the very rear of the train), and apparently there were warning lights that came up in the driver's dashboard. Afterwards, the conductor contacted control, and then shortly after, the train started moving at a slower pace, powered by the power pack (I believe it was running on diesel, but I'm not exactly sure). We arrived at Merthyr Tydfil late at 15:02.

I've been speculating what has happened since. Me and another friend think the pantograph broke, potentially snapped off, but I want to hear some more insight on what could've happened, and I'm wondering if anyone was there for the occasion too? I've never experienced a train break down like this, but mind you, I haven't been so lucky lately - that disaster trip getting back to Cardiff Central on Easter Monday after London Paddington shut was a nightmare...

Anyway, that's it for RailUK Forums bedtime stories XD.

P.S, the journey can be found here. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W17855/2025-05-03/detailed#allox_id=0

Oh gosh, I haven't heard of that before Hopefully it hasn't put your friend off trains?

 

[800001]

Hey, long time no see! You may or may not remember me from the launch day, I decided to poke about this forum shortly after.

I've returned because earlier today I was returning to Merthyr Tydfil from Cardiff Central on 756102, taking a friend of mine on their first ever train trip. Everything seemed fine, we were working on a fun movie idea, and nothing was out of place, but between Pontypridd and Abercynon, something strange happened...

There was an audible bang from above the train, and after that saw sparks out the window on the right. The train then quickly came to a halt (likely an emergency breaking). I overheard the conductor and the driver talking (as I was sat at the very rear of the train), and apparently there were warning lights that came up in the driver's dashboard. Afterwards, the conductor contacted control, and then shortly after, the train started moving at a slower pace, powered by the power pack (I believe it was running on diesel, but I'm not exactly sure). We arrived at Merthyr Tydfil late at 15:02.

I've been speculating what has happened since. Me and another friend think the pantograph broke, potentially snapped off, but I want to hear some more insight on what could've happened, and I'm wondering if anyone was there for the occasion too? I've never experienced a train break down like this, but mind you, I haven't been so lucky lately - that disaster trip getting back to Cardiff Central on Easter Monday after London Paddington shut was a nightmare...

Anyway, that's it for RailUK Forums bedtime stories XD.

P.S, the journey can be found here. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W17855/2025-05-03/detailed#allox_id=0

If there was a pantograph issue very unlikely you would start to move so quick after the incident. And if the pantograph had broke the train would most likely stay where it was until maintenance engineers arrived to make it safe for the train to move.

 

[tfw756rider]

It transpired that a pigeon had managed to short out the OHLE to the coach body. Not much left of the pigeon. After a faff for what seemed like an age the electric only unit (class 378) got going again late but otherwise fine.

Ah, so "hopefully" it was at least something more like this.

 

[val_screamz]

Well. Firstly from the RTT it looks like the unit went on to recover some of the time it lost. So seems healthy. The same unit then carried on on this. If it was damaged I guess it would have come off the diagram at Cardiff but it went on to Aberdare. So unit probably fine. I doubt it would have continued in service if there was even a possibility of any slight damage.

Load bang from above. I had an experience like this on the North London line last year. There was also a bright flash that almost seemed to make it into the coach !. It transpired that a pigeon had managed to short out the OHLE, presumably to the coach body. Not much left of the pigeon. After a faff for what seemed like an age the electric only unit (class 378) got going again late but otherwise fine.

That makes sense, it could've probably been that. It's certainly nothing I've ever seen before, though.

If there was a pantograph issue very unlikely you would start to move so quick after the incident. And if the pantograph had broke the train would most likely stay where it was until maintenance engineers arrived to make it safe for the train to move.

That's reassuring. :>

Oh gosh, I haven't heard of that before Hopefully it hasn't put your friend off trains?

Don't worry, they're fine, and honestly they weren't so frightened - I think we were both more confused than anything. XD

 

[tfw756rider]

Video (not mine, uploaded by Ragatha on the 29/4/25) of 231004 passing through Hanwell, Ealing, London (an Elizabeth line Western overland station). Does anyone in here know why?

 

[StripeyNick]

Video (not mine, uploaded by Ragatha on the 29/4/25) of 231004 passing through Hanwell, Ealing, London (an Elizabeth line Western overland station). Does anyone in here know why?

004 went to Ilford a couple of months ago for bogie work (I think) following a derailment at Canton and I'm not aware of any other moves..... maybe it's that working and it's only just been uploaded

 

[56xx]

Despite their flaws, I like 197s a lot (the look of them, the sound of them with the "172-style" engine/gearbox setup, etc.) but, apart from all their other issues, I really think something should be done about the toilets.

As someone who uses the modern TfW units in South and West Wales etc. (197s, 231s and of course 756s) and the outgoing 158s in Mid Wales, on the latter, I actually noticed both toilets on a 2-car 158 being used at the same time.

Compare that with a 2-car 197 only having one toilet, and the CET tank is too small so it can get full half-way through the day, so then, no toilet.

Ideally the 2-car 197s should be fitted with a second (small) toilet in addition to the big toilet (yes, the seating capacity would further reduce, but the eventual "single-unit" use of the 2-car 197s shouldn't be on services that really want more carriages anyway).

At the very least, a bigger (or additional) CET tank should be fitted.

I'm finding more often that the single toilet on the 756s is locked out of use due to full CET on the TAM lines.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'm finding more often that the single toilet on the 756s is locked out of use due to full CET on the TAM lines.

Easing customers into life without lavatories ahead of the full takeover by 398s

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'm finding more often that the single toilet on the 756s is locked out of use due to full CET on the TAM lines.

Over in the class 197 topic it was said that the toilets on those are so unreliable that they are normally locked of use before the CET tanks can get full. So, the question is, are the toilets on the FLIRTs more-reliable than those on the 197s or are the toilets on the FLIRTs being locked out due to faults rather than full tanks?

Assuming that the CET tanks on the FLIRTs really are full, as 56xx suggests, does this mean the FLIRTs have smaller tanks than the 150s they are replacing?

 

[tfw756rider]

004 went to Ilford a couple of months ago for bogie work (I think) following a derailment at Canton and I'm not aware of any other moves..... maybe it's that working and it's only just been uploaded

Thanks Although the uploader has now told me it was videoed in August 2024

I'm finding more often that the single toilet on the 756s is locked out of use due to full CET on the TAM lines.

I suppose it depends on the time of day of travel.

 

[56xx]

Easing customers into life without lavatories ahead of the full takeover by 398s

Ha Ha

 

[Logger79]

Hey, long time no see! You may or may not remember me from the launch day, I decided to poke about this forum shortly after.

I've returned because earlier today I was returning to Merthyr Tydfil from Cardiff Central on 756102, taking a friend of mine on their first ever train trip. Everything seemed fine, we were working on a fun movie idea, and nothing was out of place, but between Pontypridd and Abercynon, something strange happened...

There was an audible bang from above the train, and after that saw sparks out the window on the right. The train then quickly came to a halt (likely an emergency breaking). I overheard the conductor and the driver talking (as I was sat at the very rear of the train), and apparently there were warning lights that came up in the driver's dashboard. Afterwards, the conductor contacted control, and then shortly after, the train started moving at a slower pace, powered by the power pack (I believe it was running on diesel, but I'm not exactly sure). We arrived at Merthyr Tydfil late at 15:02.

I've been speculating what has happened since. Me and another friend think the pantograph broke, potentially snapped off, but I want to hear some more insight on what could've happened, and I'm wondering if anyone was there for the occasion too? I've never experienced a train break down like this, but mind you, I haven't been so lucky lately - that disaster trip getting back to Cardiff Central on Easter Monday after London Paddington shut was a nightmare...

Anyway, that's it for RailUK Forums bedtime stories XD.

P.S, the journey can be found here. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W17855/2025-05-03/detailed#allox_id=0

The bang would have been the panto dropping, standard stuff. You will see flashes and some sparks occasionally.
The unit runs on battery never direct off the OLE and would have run on battery even if the panto had dropped.

 

[800001]

The bang would have been the panto dropping, standard stuff. You will see flashes and some sparks occasionally.
The unit runs on battery never direct off the OLE and would have run on battery even if the panto had dropped.

A 756 does run off the OLE Where there is ole with power, they are a trimode train, electric, diesel and battery!

 

[StripeyNick]

Thanks Although the uploader has now told me it was videoed in August 2024


I suppose it depends on the time of day of travel.

That's the one! Slightly more than a couple of months ago

 

[tfw756rider]

Ah, thanks for confirming!

The unit runs on battery never direct off the OLE and would have run on battery even if the panto had dropped.

A 756 does run off the OLE Where there is ole with power

Surely "Never direct off the OLE" is the case - the OLE powers battery chargers, and then the batteries power the traction equipment?

 

[Richard Scott]

Surely "Never direct off the OLE" is the case - the OLE powers battery chargers, and then the batteries power the traction equipment?

Possible but would not be most efficient way of doing it. Better to just run traction equipment straight from OLE.

 

[800001]

Ah, thanks for confirming!





Surely "Never direct off the OLE" is the case - the OLE powers battery chargers, and then the batteries power the traction equipment?

Of course it is powered directly off the OLE, otherwise it would not be an electric train.

The batteries are use where there is no OLE.

 

[Richard Scott]

Of course it is powered directly off the OLE, otherwise it would not be an electric train.

The batteries are use where there is no OLE.

I think what they were trying to say is OLE charges batteries and motors are always run off the batteries.