• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Travel beyond validity

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
I was just starting to wonder whether successful appeals are a myth. :lol:

Good to hear.
 

winks3

Member
Joined
7 Apr 2016
Messages
12
Yep - am very pleased with it. My appeal can be found below, should anyone be in a similar situation and not wanting to spend an evening writing an angry letter :)

Dear Sirs,

I wish to appeal the penalty fare issued to me on the XXXXXX from a Southern Revenue Protection Officer at London Victoria station.

My appeal is based upon the fact that I was given misinformation at Lancing followed by poor process employed by the Revenue Protection Officer and failure to issue the correct Penalty Fare.

As can be seen from my attached ticket, I have a valid monthly season ticket from Lancing to Imperial Wharf (via Clapham Junction) for which I pay over £370.00 per month.

My journey on the day in question was for a planned trip to Bristol (tickets attached). At Lancing station I asked for advice on how I should go about covering my journey from Clapham to London Paddington, and was informed that I should purchase an extension ticket once I reached London Victoria.

On arriving at London Victoria, I asked a member of the Southern team how I should purchase the extension ticket as advised by the staff at Lancing. What followed can only be described as a truly horrifying experience where, in my opinion, the Southern representative was particularly aggressive and misunderstanding of my requirements.

Following my request the Southern representative told me that I would not be able to purchase any extension ticket, without giving a reason as to why and contrary to the advice given to me at Lancing. Furthermore the Southern representative then informed me that as I was now not travelling on a valid ticket I would be liable for a penalty fare. This is a ridiculous state of affairs and showed a complete lack of understanding of the situation by the Southern representative.

I was further embarrassed by being was pulled to one side, questioned and treated like a criminal, whilst the British Transport Police were in attendance. Considering that I had approached the Southern representative to ask what to do next I am extremely disappointed at their reaction and unnecessary inconsiderate treatment. What disappoints me more is that I was only following the instructions given to me by the staff at Lancing.

After further dialogue the Revenue Enforcement Officer took my details and processed a Penalty Fare against me for the sum of £51.00. I was given no breakdown as to how this figure was derived.

Note that the Revenue Enforcement Officer originally stated that I would receive a £20.00 Penalty Fare.

Having taken the receipt and inspected it for further information, I can now see what appears to be mistakes on the Penalty Fare notice that I believe should completely nullify it.

The Penalty Fare states that I travelled ticketless from Brighton to London Victoria, which is totally incorrect. I am not sure why Brighton is mentioned. The [technically] ticketless part of my journey was from Clapham Junction to London Victoria. The standard fare for Brighton to London Victoria is £25.50. Doubling this value appears to be where the [penalty fare] amount of £51.00 has come from.

National Rail Conditions of Carriage condition 18 (in conjunction with condition 4) makes it clear the penalty fare only applies to the part of the journey beyond the validity of the original ticket.

CONDITION 18 STATES: IF YOU TRAVEL FURTHER THAN A TICKET ALLOWS
IF YOU TRAVEL BEYOND THE DESTINATION SHOWN ON THE TICKET, YOU WILL BE TREATED AS HAVING JOINED THE TRAIN WITHOUT A TICKET FOR THAT ADDITIONAL PART OF YOUR JOURNEY.

As I have stated previously I was not trying to travel beyond the limit of my ticket, I was acting upon the advice of a Southern representative at Lancing station. If your agent at Lancing had given me incorrect information then your representative at Victoria should have used a simple bit of discretion to avoid this unnecessary confrontation.
Under section 17 (3)(iii), the railway byelaws state that a person can travel without a valid ticket if an authorised person allowed them to do so. I believe the instruction from Southern representative at Lancing station means that my case falls under this legislation:

17. COMPULSORY TICKET AREAS
(1) NO PERSON SHALL ENTER A COMPULSORY TICKET AREA ON THE RAILWAY UNLESS HE HAS
WITH HIM A VALID TICKET.
(2) A PERSON SHALL HAND OVER HIS TICKET FOR INSPECTION AND VERIFICATION OF VALIDITY
WHEN ASKED TO DO SO BY AN AUTHORISED PERSON.
(3) NO PERSON SHALL BE IN BREACH OF BYELAW 17(1) OR 17(2) IF:
(I) THERE WERE NO FACILITIES IN WORKING ORDER FOR THE ISSUE OR
VALIDATION OF ANY TICKET AT THE TIME WHEN, AND THE STATION WHERE,
HE BEGAN HIS JOURNEY; OR
(II) THERE WAS A NOTICE AT THE STATION WHERE HE BEGAN HIS JOURNEY
PERMITTING JOURNEYS TO BE STARTED WITHOUT A VALID TICKET; OR
(III) AN AUTHORISED PERSON GAVE HIM PERMISSION TO TRAVEL WITHOUT A
VALID TICKET.

I am disappointed to have to write this letter as I have travelled for many years from Lancing to London and have never failed to produce a ticket when asked. The attitude of your representative and their disrespect shown to me proves the general feeling of rail travellers that you are not there to assist your customers merely to find ways to extract more money from them.

Finally, I feel I have presented a strong argument that should present a compelling case for the successful appeal of my Penalty Fare notice. I trust that you will consider my case based on the evidence I have presented for you and I look forward to receiving a timely response.

Yours truly,
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
16,132
Location
0036
I would recommend that anyone appealing a PF not use that letter and instead be considerably more brief and refrain from alleging misconduct against people. Whilst the appeal was allowed on this occasion as the OP was in the right, in cases where an appeal is more dependent on goodwill, that style of accusatory letter can erode said goodwill with the effect of lessening the appeal's success.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
Great news on the appeal!

I think island is right about the letter. It did work on this occasion, but such a style may not be successful all of the time.
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
6,595
Location
Merseyside
I would recommend that anyone appealing a PF not use that letter and instead be considerably more brief and refrain from alleging misconduct against people. Whilst the appeal was allowed on this occasion as the OP was in the right, in cases where an appeal is more dependent on goodwill, that style of accusatory letter can erode said goodwill with the effect of lessening the appeal's success.

How so?
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
Agreed. It's best to keep such correspondence as brief as possible and factual in nature. A neutral tone is best in my experience.
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
Because it's too long, uses emotive language, doesn't focus on the facts of the matter, denigrates the staff involved and has a generally accusative tone. Other than that...

Agreed on all counts.

Such letters tend to make it far less likely for discretion to be exercised, should any be required. If no discretion were required, there is no need to state anything other than a concise account of relevant facts.

I respond to escalated complaints in my job sometimes, and can confirm that people having to do this get trained on the job, so to speak, over time to ignore irrelevant information. Too much waffle and you will also annoy the person processing your complaint, who very most likely does not have lots of spare time to deal with your case, in amongst lots of other similar letters.

Be concise wherever possible, and stick to facts at all times. Some indication of your dissatisfaction/disappointment should be more than sufficient to convey the message. Moreover (not this letter above), for god's sake, be assertive yet polite. There is nothing more off-putting than a letter of complaint beaming of arrogance, belittlement, and rudeness.
 

crehld

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2014
Messages
1,994
Location
Norfolk
Agreed on all counts.

Such letters tend to make it far less likely for discretion to be exercised, should any be required. If no discretion were required, there is no need to state anything other than a concise account of relevant facts.

I respond to escalated complaints in my job sometimes, and can confirm that people having to do this get trained on the job, so to speak, over time to ignore irrelevant information. Too much waffle and you will also annoy the person processing your complaint, who very most likely does not have lots of spare time to deal with your case, in amongst lots of other similar letters.

Be concise wherever possible, and stick to facts at all times. Some indication of your dissatisfaction/disappointment should be more than sufficient to convey the message. Moreover (not this letter above), for god's sake, be assertive yet polite. There is nothing more off-putting than a letter of complaint beaming of arrogance, belittlement, and rudeness.

It would be good if this advice could be incorporated into the fares and ticketing guide. We often see draft letters on this section of the forum which are far too long, emotive or unfocused.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top