Travelling over-distance on a Season ticket

[Malton Seadog]

Hopefully the title of this thread will provoke some responses!

Here's the situation:

I have a Doncaster to York season ticket (monthly), which says "Any Route Permitted" on it.

Today - I needed to get from York to Meadowhall.

There were no East Coast services to Doncaster for around an hour, but I noticed that there was a 15:01 direct Northern service which called at Ulleskelf, Church Fenton, Pontefract Baghill, Moorthorpe, Swinton, Meadowhall and Sheffield.

I went to the station helpdesk and quite reasonably asked "Is my York to Doncaster season ticket valid on the 15:01 Northern service as far as Swinton?" - this being a reasonable place to change to get to Doncaster.

"Yes - that's fine" came the reply.

So I went to the platform and asked the guard before boarding the train. "I've got a York to Doncaster season ticket - am I OK to use it as far as Swinton?".

"Yes - get on and take a seat!".

'Great', I thought, 'very helpful indeed! I'll just buy a Swinton to Meadowhall ticket on the train when the time comes'.

Anyway - we arrive at Swinton, and the train stops for a while. Next thing I know, the conductor comes down and asks "You're the chap going to Swinton aren't you?".

"Yes - but I'm continuing to Meadowhall so I'll need a single from here please".

"I'll come back to you" he says, and marches off.

A few minutes later, he came back muttering something about the fact I hadn't made myself clear and that he was fully expecting me to get off at Swinton and continue to Doncaster in order for my pass to be valid.

"As a compromise, and I think this is fair, I'm going to charge you for a Doncaster to Meadowhall single".

'Fine', I thought, 'I'm not going to argue'.

On recollection though, who was right/wrong here? I may have been guilty of failing to tell either the guy at the travel centre at York AND the conductor that I meant to go on to Meadowhall, but surely if my season ticket was valid as far as Swinton, I shouldn't have been charged from Doncaster?

Is there a rule about cutting season ticket journeys short? For example, if I had a Doncaster to London season ticket, would I not be allowed to get off at Peterborough?

I'm not having a go at any of the staff - I simply wonder if you knowledgeable people can make any sense of the whole thing?

 

[142094]

Stopping short on a season ticket is valid as long as you are travelling on route. Someone will check but if York - Donny is valid via Swinton then he should have charged you for a Swinton - Meadowhall ticket.

 

[MikeWh]

You can make unlimited journeys along any permitted route covered by the season ticket, getting on and off wherever you please. Until you got to Swinton they had no reason to worry about your intentions as you were 100% valid. If you have been overcharged then I'd write to Northern and ask for a refund.


Assuming that via Swinton is a valid route ... but looking at the map I'm not sure. If it isn't then you've probably been treated very fairly.


Edit 2 - it's not a valid route. You were lucky. Down south that would have been a penalty fare!

 

[Intermodal]

York to Doncaster is not valid via Swinton so the guard did the right thing. You weren't travelling on a permitted route in the first place. Nothing to lose sleep over, but you certainly weren't unfairly charged.

Edit: Although it didn't help that you were misinformed by the helpdesk at the station.

 

[Malton Seadog]

I certainly didn't intend to go on an invalid route, but naturally took the (2x) staff opinions as being correct.

If I'd known, I'd have waited for a Doncaster service.

 

[Intermodal]

I certainly didn't intend to go on an invalid route, but naturally took the (2x) staff opinions as being correct.

If I'd known, I'd have waited for a Doncaster service.

I don't think you are to blame here, the person to blame is the person who misinformed you. As I said, don't lose any sleep over it, nothing more will come of it.

 

[MikeWh]

I certainly didn't intend to go on an invalid route, but naturally took the (2x) staff opinions as being correct.

If I'd known, I'd have waited for a Doncaster service.

You'd still have been charged the same. The problem was that because you suggested that you were going to Doncaster they thought they were doing you a favour letting you travel off-route. If you'd said you wanted Meadowhall then they might have said it would cost you from Doncaster anyway.

 

[Flying Snail]

You'd still have been charged the same. The problem was that because you suggested that you were going to Doncaster they thought they were doing you a favour letting you travel off-route. If you'd said you wanted Meadowhall then they might have said it would cost you from Doncaster anyway.

That sounds like what has happened. People can only answer the question asked and in this case it was about travelling to Doncaster not using the season as partial cover for a different journey. I imagine in this sort of situation it would not be unheard of for staff to allow someone use a normally invalid route if it would give a quicker journey than making the passenger wait for the correctly routed service.

 

[Old Timer]

A York to Doncaster season ticket is only valid direct or via Leeds so I am not sure how anyone can imagine Swinton would be an acceptable route.

Its noted however there never was an intention to travel to Doncaster so the fare should have been the standard single from York to Meadowhall.

Remember also this is in effect a clear S5 1889 Act potential prosecution, because there is a clear intent to avoid the fare for the actual journey.

The National Rail website quite clearly provides the guidance as to the "any permitted" routing.

 

[Intermodal]

Old Timer; that is a bit harsh. You're essentially calling the poster a liar when he says he wasn't aware. If what he said was true that he was misinformed at the help desk then he can hardly be liable for prosecution. Maybe be a bit more thoughtful before throwing around that he may be prosecuted and so on, especially when he definitely isn't going to be prosecuted because the guard reached an agreement with him. :roll:

 

[455driver]

OT is pointing out that the OP had not made himself clear to the staff of his actual intentions, the guard had used his discretion bearing in mind there had not been a Doncaster train for a while to enable the OP to get home (home being Doncaster), but as there was no intention of going to Doncaster then a fare from York to Meadowhall would have been correct, the guard again used discretion in only charging the Doncaster to Meadowhall fare but pointed out the error of the OPs original question.

All round a good outcome really, the OP got where he wanted but now knows the route is not valid, the guard had charged the fare as if the OP had boarded at the limit of his tickets validity (Doncaster) and avoided the bad feeling of charging the OP from York after saying he could board.

All round a good, reasonable result.

 

[yorkie]

'Great', I thought, 'very helpful indeed! I'll just buy a Swinton to Meadowhall ticket on the train when the time comes'.

Okay but that does mean, at the very least, that you should then be charged the full fare, and not be entitled to any discounts.

On recollection though, who was right/wrong here? I may have been guilty of failing to tell either the guy at the travel centre at York AND the conductor that I meant to go on to Meadowhall, but surely if my season ticket was valid as far as Swinton, I shouldn't have been charged from Doncaster?

If the conductor thought you were being dishonest, then the correct action is to report you for prosecution.

If the conductor thought you were genuine, he should have charged you £2.90 for a single from Swinton to Meadowhall (given that you had already received authority to travel as far as Swinton - an act of kindness the guard was probably regretting at that point!)

If you were going back from Meadowhall - Doncaster, then a Doncaster-Meadowhall return would be the most appropriate fare for you. If you had explained this to the guard before departure I am sure he would have sold you a £4.90 CDR, or you could have bought it from the ticket office at York. As you declined TWO opportunities (the ticket office and the guard at York), at best the Doncaster-Meadowhall fare would be £6.10 SDR (or, perhaps £4.90 CDR if the guard was feeling really lenient) and at worst that's a prosecution.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I certainly didn't intend to go on an invalid route, but naturally took the (2x) staff opinions as being correct.

I disagree that two stated it was valid. One maybe.

The first person clearly thought it was reasonable. Did they actually look up the Routeing Guide? I doubt it. They shouldn't have given you the answer they did though. Granted, one person incorrectly said it was valid, by the sound of it.

Your account sounds to me like you asked the second person (the guard) for his permission to travel between York and Swinton. The guard has that authority, and I do not feel it is ever fair to claim that a guard allowing you travel on a train with a particular ticket counts as the guard verifying it as an official permitted route!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Its noted however there never was an intention to travel to Doncaster so the fare should have been the standard single from York to Meadowhall.

Church Fenton to Meadowhall, I'd say. But that's still £14, not much less than the fare from York.

(A cheaper way to get from Church Fenton to Meadowhall is Micklefield-Pontefract SDS £3.35 + Pontefract - Meadowhall CDS £7.70, though Malton Seadog waived his right to a CDS so make that last one £8.40 SDS!)

Remember also this is in effect a clear S5 1889 Act potential prosecution, because there is a clear intent to avoid the fare for the actual journey.

I don't agree that it is a "clear intent" but his actions demonstrate a potential intent, IMO. I've not seen Northern prosecute for a case like this (which is unsurprising as this is rather unique), but given cases I have seen them prosecute for, I could certainly see them try. Northern are not afraid to prosecute, and have lost a few high profile cases as a result. I think the OP is lucky not to be prosecuted, though I am not convinced Northern would have won, I reckon it would have settled out of court for a sum of perhaps £200.

Malton Seadog - You have a PM for a better Season you can purchase next time you renew.

 

[Intermodal]

Malton Seadog - what ticket were you sold from Doncaster to Meadowhall? Was it an anytime or off-peak ticket, single or return, and did he discount it with your railcard if you have one?

If he did sell you an discounted ticket, you got off extremely lightly!

 

[Malton Seadog]

Hi again,

I was sold a Doncaster to Meadowhall anytime single at around £4.30 I believe.

I think the OP is lucky not to be prosecuted, though I am not convinced Northern would have won, I reckon it would have settled out of court for a sum of perhaps £200.

Seriously?! Let us bear in mind here that despite me not mentioning that I was going to Meadowhall, not one of the two staff members asked me where I was going.

The exact way I phrased my question both times was 'Is my York to Doncaster season ticket valid as far as Swinton?

To me - and perhaps I'm wrong - this suggests that I intended to go further than Swinton, and not necessarily to Doncaster.

Incidentally - if I'd have tried to go from Swinton to Doncaster on my York season ticket, I think I'd have run into even more problems. To me - this is bad advice on the part of the staff members. Why would I be travelling from the Sheffield direction (south-west) on a ticket from the north?

Both parties were partly to blame, but to throw allegations of lying and prosecution out there is a little harsh. £4,800 I've spent on season ticket passes over the last two years or so, and I ALWAYS buy a ticket for even the shortest journey, even if I know full well that it won't get checked.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....The exact way I phrased my question both times was 'Is my York to Doncaster season ticket valid as far as Swinton?

To me - and perhaps I'm wrong - this suggests that I intended to go further than Swinton, and not necessarily to Doncaster....

It doesn't necessarily say that to me though, I might understand it as "I'm going to Swinton, is my season ticket valid". There are plenty of examples of people asking for things (with the best of intentions) in a way that can be 'wrongly' interpreted.

The other day I was asked about train times to Huddersfield, to which I mentioned the faster Transpennine Express services, turned out they were going to Greenfield!

Perhaps a better way of asking the question is to say what you are intending to do, then everything is clear to both parties.

 

[Greenback]

It doesn't necessarily say that to me though, I might understand it as "I'm going to Swinton, is my season ticket valid". There are plenty of examples of people asking for things (with the best of intentions) in a way that can be 'wrongly' interpreted.

The other day I was asked about train times to Huddersfield, to which I mentioned the faster Transpennine Express services, turned out they were going to Greenfield!

Perhaps a better way of asking the question is to say what you are intending to do, then everything is clear to both parties.

I agree. In similar circumstances, and for the avoidance of any doubt, I would have explained exactly what ticket I had and where I was intending to travel to.

 

[yorkie]

..but to throw allegations of lying and prosecution out there is a little harsh....

I am absolutely not making any allegations of lying or any other allegation. Saying that you could have been prosecuted is not an allegation - it's a genuine possibility I think in that situation. I base that assessment on my knowledge of cases where Northern have threatened members of this forum (people who specifically joined this forum for advice in the case in question) and based on the views of other people I consider to be experts. Northern prosecuted someone over 10p and lost, and they then prosecuted someone else for a similar amount, and lost again. I'm not an expert but believe their prosecutions are effectively covered by taxpayers rather than out of profits, and they are not afraid to prosecute. I am absolutely not saying I agree with this, though.

£4,800 I've spent on season ticket passes over the last two years or so, and I ALWAYS buy a ticket for even the shortest journey, even if I know full well that it won't get checked.

Problem is that the price of a Season ticket has no bearing on cases like this. Perhaps it should, perhaps it shouldn't, I won't get into that debate however what I will say is that it is advisable to buy the best season you can get at the price you pay, and in your case you can get a better value season for the same price that would have been useful on this occasion (see PM).

 

[Old Timer]

Both parties were partly to blame, but to throw allegations of lying and prosecution out there is a little harsh. £4,800 I've spent on season ticket passes over the last two years or so, and I ALWAYS buy a ticket for even the shortest journey, even if I know full well that it won't get checked.

There IS the possibility that the staff were prepared to allow you to travel via the Northern Rail service (which I think I read ran to Doncaster) as a goodwill gesture. That being the case they would have done it on the basis that the destination was Doncaster and there would have been no need to change trains.

Now whilst I am not accuisng you of lying, at the time you departed York, your intended destination was no longer Doncaster it was Meadowhall.

Your season ticket obviously would not be valid via Swinton, and even you yourself admit that you doubted it was because you raised the question.

So the situation is that you are intending to make a journey which is outside of the validity and routing of the season ticket.

As far as S5 is concerned you have already met two of the tests for Prosecution, and left the Guard in a poor position which was why he was not happy at all. In his situation I would not have been.

Bottom line therefore you really are very lucky as had the job been done correctly, your season should have been withdrawn (Misuse - permitted in the NCoC) and you should have been issued with a free excess for the journey to York to Meadowhall, and a report submitted for Prosecution.

A point maybe to be remembered also is that in some cases, a season ticket may be permiited via an alternative route but has no validity for break of journey. By way of example in days gone by it there may have been an easement to travel via Swinton but this would have been for a through journey only without break allowed.

Another example was a Kings Cross to Stevenage season in BR days. Valid on the main line but NOT via Hertford North EXCEPT on a diverted train, and not valid for a break of journey at any station on the loop.

A virtual pint to anyone who can say why

 

[clagmonster]

Another example was a Kings Cross to Stevenage season in BR days. Valid on the main line but NOT via Hertford North EXCEPT on a diverted train, and not valid for a break of journey at any station on the loop.

A virtual pint to anyone who can say why

When in BR days are we talking? If it was post sectorisation, is it to do with the revenue distribution between Intercity and NSE?
Alternatively, was it a case that a ticket from Kings Cross to Stevenage was cheaper than to some Hertford loop stations?

 

[A60K]

Was there no regular local passenger service between Hertford North and Stevenage for a while - until the mid 1980s is in my mind for some reason?

 

[Old Timer]

Was there no regular local passenger service between Hertford North and Stevenage for a while - until the mid 1980s is in my mind for some reason?

Well done, old chap !

You are indeed a clever fellow and a virtual pint must make its way to you !

Beer

Because there was no booked exit at the north end of the Hertford loop, a ticket on the main line was only available on through services that were diverted. Normally a season ticket where there are alternative routes is priced against the longer.

Take for example Rugby to Euston. Rugby is 81 miles via the Old line and 84 via the New line. For fares and season ticket purposes it was charged on the basis of being 84 miles from Euston.

Although people argue that ticket routing is complicated today, there were odd situations which may not have made sense to the public but which did have some logic.

For example a St Albans Abbey to Euston was valid from St Albans City and for break of journey whereas a St Albans City to St Pancras was only valid to Euston (no break of journey allowed) if The Midland was blocked.

Taking another situation, Watford Jct to Euston tickets were calculated on the DC lines via Watford High St, whilst tickets north of Watford Jct were priced direct but accepted with a break of journey on the DCs.

Hemel Hempstead to Euston was adjusted from 24 to 27 miles so as to make a season ticket valid from Harpenden to St Pancras with break of journey allowed. Obviously Harpenden to St Pancras season tickets were allowed to Euston. This was something we called inter-availability.

Other examples of this were Runcorn/Warrington to Euston, Glasgow/Edinburgh to Euston/Kings Cross, Birmingham to Euston/Paddington (but no break of journey allowed on the WR).