TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[Bwsbro]

Gwynedd Council have just amended the tender form for the X94 service between Barmouth and Wrexham following

a local bus operator intends to register commercial journeys between Barmouth and Dolgellau

This has created an amendment to the X94 with buses operating between Barmouth and Dolgellau operating to/from timing points only and the usual stopping points between Llangollen and Wrexham.

The only wonder i have is who is commercialising the service between Dolgellau and Barmouth as the only choices i can see is Lloyds Coaches of Machynlleth and Express Motors of Penygroes

 

[WelshBuses93]

What will happen with the evening services operated by GHA Coaches?:roll:

 

[adey2011]

Is the timetable you show an official Gwynedd publication for operators to tender for? If so why does it still show Dolgellau to Barmouth if that part is to be operated commercially?

 

[Bwsbro]

Is the timetable you show an official Gwynedd publication for operators to tender for? If so why does it still show Dolgellau to Barmouth if that part is to be operated commercially?

It is the official timetable for tender by Gwynedd Council. All sections along the route will be operated under tender for the council with contributions by Wrexham CC and Denbighshire CC.

From the ITT it states

Journeys at 0826, 1050, 1250, 1450, 1706 and 1811 from Barmouth operate limited stop and serve only the timing points shown. In addition, passengers may board at all other stops provided that they are travelling east of Dolgellau Eldon Square. Departures at 0602 1150 and 2020 have no such restriction and observe all stops.

Journeys at 0853, 1118, 1318 and 1529, from Dolgellau to Barmouth operate limited stop and serve only the timing points shown. In addition, passengers may alight at all other stops provided that they boarded east of Dolgellau Eldon Square. Departures at 0534, 0758, 1218, 1743 and 1953 have no such restriction and observe all stops.

I have messaged Gwynedd Council for full clarity of which stops will be served on the X94 and hope to receive confirmation tomorrow. as basically it states if passengers who travel to Dolgellau Eldon Square will only be allowed to use certain stops whereas if traveling say to/from Bala then they can use any bus stop

The Invitation to Tender closes on the 2nd December


NO ITT available yet for the journeys south of Aberystywth

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It is the official timetable for tender by Gwynedd Council. All sections along the route will be operated under tender for the council with contributions by Wrexham CC and Denbighshire CC.

From the ITT it states


I have messaged Gwynedd Council for full clarity of which stops will be served on the X94 and hope to receive confirmation tomorrow. as basically it states if passengers who travel to Dolgellau Eldon Square will only be allowed to use certain stops whereas if traveling say to/from Bala then they can use any bus stop

The Invitation to Tender closes on the 2nd December


NO ITT available yet for the journeys south of Aberystywth

Without knowing the identity of the commercial operator (though my gut feeling would be Lloyds), then I'd assume that the commercial service has a lunch break and hence the short all stops journey in the middle.

Also, the limited stop bit is to obviously get around the issue of a tendered service competing with a commercial operation. However, one wonders if there will be a bit of confusion as how do you police the situation of a person sticking out their hand, bus stopping and customer wanting an intermediate stop? A case of "sorry, you can't come on"?

 

[Rhydgaled]

the limited stop bit is to obviously get around the issue of a tendered service competing with a commercial operation. However, one wonders if there will be a bit of confusion as how do you police the situation of a person sticking out their hand, bus stopping and customer wanting an intermediate stop? A case of "sorry, you can't come on"?

Agreed, that does sound a bit awkward. Another case of commertial operation perhaps not being ideal for passengers.

That said, this timetable looks a bit thin compared to the previous one (hourly service between Barmouth and Dolgellau) so perhaps the commercial operation will be hourly. If so, if the commertial service runs just ahead of the X94 it would pick up passengers only going as far as Dolgellau anyway. Trouble with that is you have to make sure the X94 says behind and doesn't overtake when the commertial service stops to pick up passengers.

Also a question, is the only difference between Options 1 & 2 on the ITT whether the service operates via Llandderfel village, Ruabon station approach and Parade Street, Llangollen? If so, why do the timetables appear to be identical?

 

[adey2011]

Interesting discussion, I may though have another thought on this. If Lloyds have reistered commercially for the Barmouth to Dolgellau services what is to prevent them from also securing the tendered service from Wrexham to Barmouth. If we look at the proposed Gwynedd timetable you will see that it is a 3 bus service with 2 vehicles operating from Dolgellau at 0534 and 0758 in the morning and finishing there at 1838 and 2047 in the evenings. The third bus starts outs in the mornings @ 0651 from Wrexham and finishes its day at Wrexham at 1932. It would seem therefore that the 2 buses are either Lloyds or someone very close to Dolgellau whilst the 3rd bus is based in Wrexham (GHA), this theory is based purely on minimal dead mileage for either operator. Lloyds have secured another service from Barmouth to Dolgellau commencing on the 6th January which is an 0820 from Barmouth to Dolgellau returning at 1510 from Dolgellau to Barmouth in the evenings and is Double Deck requirement. If my theories are correct there shouldn't be a problem with a tendered service abstracting commercial fares if one operator virtually runs both operations.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Interesting discussion, I may though have another thought on this. If Lloyds have reistered commercially for the Barmouth to Dolgellau services what is to prevent them from also securing the tendered service from Wrexham to Barmouth.

If my theories are correct there shouldn't be a problem with a tendered service abstracting commercial fares if one operator virtually runs both operations.

You are correct on that score and given the relationship with Gwynedd Council that Lloyds in particular have, that could well be what happens practically. I guess that they have to set up the tender in the way they have, and then the implementation will be different

 

[Bwsbro]

You are correct on that score and given the relationship with Gwynedd Council that Lloyds in particular have, that could well be what happens practically. I guess that they have to set up the tender in the way they have, and then the implementation will be different

Don't go counting your chickens yet. Lloyds Coaches and Gwynedd Council haven't been that good lately following the shambles for the new evening services on route 28 between Dolgellau and Tywyn. Lloyds Coaches won the contract and enquired the council if they could operate the service 20 minutes later throughout to connect with the GHA X94 bus from Corwen/Bala and their Saturday 33 bus from Machynlleth. But Gwynedd Council said no. Tehrefore placed the service for re-tendering and awarded to Express Motors (Operated by a Penygroes based driver)

Regarding the limited stop X94 workings this is the reply i received from Gwynedd Council

Limited stop relates to the locations noted on the timetable specification i.e. Barmouth, Bontddu, Llanelltyd, Dolgellau.

The arrangement must be made known to passengers and the driver will simply have to stop and ask if hailed. Passengers wishing to travel further than Dolgellau must be allowed to board. This will maintain the integrity of the X94 and the TrawsCymru ethos. This is in line with the precedent of operating limited stop east of Llangollen and it also accords with the Minister’s views and requests. Most importantly, it is in the passengers’ interest for those wishing to cross Dolgellau.

I enquired for information regarding the commercial journeys as this would effect the operation of the X94

With regards to the commercial journeys, the intentions will only be known by the operator who has submitted the registration and therefore you must contact them directly.

On another note Gwynedd Council has placed the Morning and evening College routes from Barmouth to Tan y Bwlch up for tender as service 38. Although it is true to point out that Express Motors have de-register their 2/38 service back in May. And they still operate the route.

 

[adey2011]

I heard about Lloyds not getting the evening 28 service after their request to move the times forward by 20 minutes was declined by Gwynedd. The whole point in Taith putting up the money for a six month trial service was based on the residents (who had campaigned vociferously over many months) having a usable service that allowed them to travel beyond Dolgellau in the evenings. Surely Lloyd's suggestion to move the times and connect with the X94 made simple common sense, giving passengers a full service, I really don't understand the mechanics of Councils who seem to always look at the fiscal bottom line to the detriment of the paying passengers who can end up with an inferior operator who has no ambitions to build on a service.

 

[anthony263]

Some councils are far better than others with their subsidised services. My local council in Bridgend has a good network of subsidised bus services some of which have been taken on commercially although one has been lost and that is the Vale of glamorgan village bus network which Bridgend council could not fund alone as it was based mostly in the Vale of glamorgan council's area.

Of course funding cuts are now due to bite with Brigend council annoucing that some school bus services will be withdrawn from 2015 although some operators have looked at running the services commercially.

Anyway with the bus pass scheme being reviewed by the welsh government we may see some further routes withdrawn

 

[Bwsbro]

I heard about Lloyds not getting the evening 28 service after their request to move the times forward by 20 minutes was declined by Gwynedd. The whole point in Taith putting up the money for a six month trial service was based on the residents (who had campaigned vociferously over many months) having a usable service that allowed them to travel beyond Dolgellau in the evenings. Surely Lloyd's suggestion to move the times and connect with the X94 made simple common sense, giving passengers a full service, I really don't understand the mechanics of Councils who seem to always look at the fiscal bottom line to the detriment of the paying passengers who can end up with an inferior operator who has no ambitions to build on a service.

It is though important to state though that Lloyds had been awarded the contract with the lowest tender. But due to the Council refusing to allow the service operate 20 minutes later. Although it was re-turendered it does show that the council has to pay more because of 20 minutes.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It is though important to state though that Lloyds had been awarded the contract with the lowest tender. But due to the Council refusing to allow the service operate 20 minutes later. Although it was re-turendered it does show that the council has to pay more because of 20 minutes.

Very surprising but then again, it is Gwynedd Council. Still, Lloyds have had a very good relationship with GC so wonder why the approach from the council?

 

[adey2011]

Has anyone heard yet who the operator may be that intends to operate Barmouth to Dolgellau commercially? If they intend starting before Xmas haven't they left it rather late to register on VOSA?

 

[burns20]

On a Service number related note a bit confusing is Townlynx Service T1 from Chester to Holywell competing with Arrivas 10 and 11.

Was T1 number being saved for anything Traws?

 

[Rhydgaled]

On a Service number related note a bit confusing is Townlynx Service T1 from Chester to Holywell competing with Arrivas 10 and 11.

Was T1 number being saved for anything Traws?

Ah! More evidence to support my opinion that using the Tx numbering system for TrawsCymru is silly.

The original plan was that the Aberystwyth-Carmarthen service would be TC1 and Newtown-Cardiff would be TC4. That seems sensible, but for some reason the C went missing. The TC prefix seems much more likely to be unique to Traws than just a T prefix, and it'd be a bit more obvious what the abreviation stands for.

 

[WelshBuses93]

The T1 between Chester and Holywell/ Greenfield is NOT part of the TrawsCymru network. This service operates with ex Dublin Bus Volvo B6BLE/ Wright Crusader 2's. This T1 from Chester resembles to the former X1 service previously operated by First Crosville in 2005 operating half hourly to Flint. Hope this helps.

 

[adey2011]

Looking on a Gwynedd tender form last night I noticed that services 38/38A are up for tender. These are the services that Express Motors had allegedly thrown in during May 2013, yet to this day still operate them, how is that possible? Still haven't heard who is likely to get the X94 or who has registered Dolgellau - Barmouth commercially?

 

[WelshBuses93]

Looking on a Gwynedd tender form last night I noticed that services 38/38A are up for tender. These are the services that Express Motors had allegedly thrown in during May 2013, yet to this day still operate them, how is that possible? Still haven't heard who is likely to get the X94 or who has registered Dolgellau - Barmouth commercially?

From what I've heard is that the X94 will be operated by Express Motors (not 100% sure) and the 38 is been extended to Dolgellau to operate along the X94 which will serve all stops while the X94 will operate limited stop.

 

[Bwsbro]

Looking on a Gwynedd tender form last night I noticed that services 38/38A are up for tender. These are the services that Express Motors had allegedly thrown in during May 2013, yet to this day still operate them, how is that possible? Still haven't heard who is likely to get the X94 or who has registered Dolgellau - Barmouth commercially?

I Previously commented on this swell. Regarding the tender the tender for 38A is a demand responsive taxi operating between Tan y Bwlch (Connecting with the T2 and Harlech for the 38

Regarding the 38 its only for the morning and evening college bus to/from Tan y Bwlch to connect with the 464 college bus to Llangefni


Still no information on the commercial operator on the Barmouth - Dolgellau stretch.

The ITT for the X94 closes at noon Monday 2nd December.


I have been informed by Ceredigion Council that the ITT for the replacement Aberystywth buses was run by Carmarthenshire County Council - inline with the proposals set up for last year. The ITT closed last week although there was no public ITT available for this tender

 

[trawscymru27]

On VOSA today:

PG1103020/1 - ERNEST GEORGE BRYAN T/A BRYANS COACHES, 23 FIFTH AVENUE, PENPARCAU, ABERYSTWYTH, SY23 1RE
Variation Accepted: Operating between Aberystwyth Bus Station and Cardiff Bay given service number 701 effective from 24-Jan-2014. To amend Timetable.

 

[adey2011]

The submissions for the X94 tenders are not due in until Monday 2nd of December so even if Express do get the X94 it would surely be unethical and totally wrong for Gwynedd to leak an award to an operator before seeing all the prices. As a rate payer in Gwynedd I would be very upset if that were to happen. The 38 is currently a tendered operation, whilst we are led to believe that Barmouth to Dolgellau is going to be commercial so the whole Express rumour sounds flawed.

 

[Penrallt]

Message on Elin Jones AM page:-
I’m delighted that a deal has been reached today to save the bus routes from Aberystwyth to Cardigan, and Aberystwyth to Lampeter and Carmarthen. The routes are being withdrawn by Arriva in December.
Contracts have been awarded to Lewis Coaches of Llanrhystud, Richards Brothers, and First Cymru to provide replacement services for a six-month period, starting immediately after Arriva’s withdrawal. The 50 service along the A487 will be better than the previous service, with more through journeys between Cardigan and Aberystwyth. The 20, 40 and 40C services will be similar to the current services, and arrangements have been secured for through-ticketing. The services will complement the existing 701 service to Cardiff operated by Bryan’s Coaches.
This has been a long haul, but it’s great news that it’s proved possible for local companies to step in and provide the services following Arriva’s withdrawal. This follows a lot of hard work; at the Assembly where there have been intense negotiations to secure the financial support of the Welsh Government, by the county councils led by Ceredigion’s Alun Williams, and by the many local bus companies who put together tenders for these services at short notice.
People in Ceredigion can be reassured that these crucial strategic bus services will continue when Arriva pulls out in December. I will also be looking to put pressure on the Welsh Government to establish Statutory Quality Bus Partnership in the longer term, as part of a wider review of strategic transport across Wales.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Message on Elin Jones AM page:-
I’m delighted that a deal has been reached today to save the bus routes from Aberystwyth to Cardigan, and Aberystwyth to Lampeter and Carmarthen. The routes are being withdrawn by Arriva in December.
Contracts have been awarded to Lewis Coaches of Llanrhystud, Richards Brothers, and First Cymru to provide replacement services for a six-month period, starting immediately after Arriva’s withdrawal. The 50 service along the A487 will be better than the previous service, with more through journeys between Cardigan and Aberystwyth. The 20, 40 and 40C services will be similar to the current services, and arrangements have been secured for through-ticketing. The services will complement the existing 701 service to Cardiff operated by Bryan’s Coaches.
This has been a long haul, but it’s great news that it’s proved possible for local companies to step in and provide the services following Arriva’s withdrawal. This follows a lot of hard work; at the Assembly where there have been intense negotiations to secure the financial support of the Welsh Government, by the county councils led by Ceredigion’s Alun Williams, and by the many local bus companies who put together tenders for these services at short notice.
People in Ceredigion can be reassured that these crucial strategic bus services will continue when Arriva pulls out in December. I will also be looking to put pressure on the Welsh Government to establish Statutory Quality Bus Partnership in the longer term, as part of a wider review of strategic transport across Wales.

Unfortunately the picture is not quite as bright as it sounds. The timetable isn't out yet but I saw on the bus this morning Richards' Christmas service notice. What I expected to be 'Last bus from Aberystwyth to Cardigan will be 6:15pm' is actually 'Last bus from Aberystwyth to Cardigan via New Quay and Aberporth will be 6:10pm'. A strategic express service from Aberystwth to Cardigan is gone, along with the 'connection' out of the last university lectures of the day (finishing 6pm).

Also, I think the 40 is the last Sunday bus service in Ceredigion. If I am correct, the last Sunday bus in the county will be 15th Dec, since one report I read said the Sunday service is being left to the 701 coach.

 

[Penrallt]

Unfortunately the picture is not quite as bright as it sounds. The timetable isn't out yet but I saw on the bus this morning Richards' Christmas service notice. What I expected to be 'Last bus from Aberystwyth to Cardigan will be 6:15pm' is actually 'Last bus from Aberystwyth to Cardigan via New Quay and Aberporth will be 6:10pm'. A strategic express service from Aberystwth to Cardigan is gone, along with the 'connection' out of the last university lectures of the day (finishing 6pm).

Sounds like good news then. Bypassing New Quay never made sense. The vast majority of passengers on the 50/550/X50 make short journeys and the recent changes made it impossible to travel between New Quay and Cardigan by bus. Only a very small minority travel all the way from Cardigan to Aber.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think most people probably thought you'd see the 50 go to Richards Bros and extend through the day to Aber. I'm guessing that the 40/40C will be shared between Lewis and First Cymru though whether they'll be through services or a kiss and turn arrangement in Lampeter, we will have to wait and see.

Wonder what First will turn out onto the route. Ex Portsmouth Eclipses??
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sounds like good news then. Bypassing New Quay never made sense. The vast majority of passengers on the 50/550/X50 make short journeys and the recent changes made it impossible to travel between New Quay and Cardigan by bus. Only a very small minority travel all the way from Cardigan to Aber.

Don't say that. Rhydgaled would have you believe that great swathes of people travel between Cardigan and Aber!!!

 

[WelshBuses93]

I think Lewis' have only 2 services buses which are Dennis Dart SLF/ Marshall Capitals. I think.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Sounds like good news then. Bypassing New Quay never made sense. The vast majority of passengers on the 50/550/X50 make short journeys and the recent changes made it impossible to travel between New Quay and Cardigan by bus. Only a very small minority travel all the way from Cardigan to Aber.

I will agree with you on one point, not being able to travel between New Quay and Cardigan is madness. The only plus point about this in the current timetable is that it eliminated the potentially leathal change of bus at Synod Inn, it's a shame the 550 couldn't have run to New Quay to meet Arriva's 50 rather than Synod Inn.

That's no reason to scrap the X50 service though, pretty sure the handful of X50 Aberystwyth services still existed, at broadly similar times to today, back when Arriva was running the 550 through to Cardigan. There's no reason why we couldn't have Cardigan - Aberporth - New Quay - Aberaeron and Cardigan - Aberaeron - Aberystwyth (X50, ie. direct) services every two hours is there?

I think most people probably thought you'd see the 50 go to Richards Bros and extend through the day to Aber. I'm guessing that the 40/40C will be shared between Lewis and First Cymru though whether they'll be through services or a kiss and turn arrangement in Lampeter, we will have to wait and see.

Would a kiss-and-turn at Lampeter work given that (I think) an odd number of vehicles (5) is required to work the service? I wouldn't be supprised if it's three diagrams each, Richards' on the 50/550, First's on the 40/TC1/40c and Lewis having one on 550/50 and two on 40/TC1/40c.

Don't say that. Rhydgaled would have you believe that great swathes of people travel between Cardigan and Aber!!!

I'll tell you one thing, there definately won't be if you have to go via New Quay and Aberporth. Hardly supprising if not many use the bus between Aberystwyth and Cardigan given the poor service outside the handful of peak time journeys. Personally, I think there's a (small) market there which should be captured with a service every two hours, not thrown away.

 

[Penrallt]

That's no reason to scrap the X50 service though, pretty sure the handful of X50 Aberystwyth services still existed, at broadly similar times to today, back when Arriva was running the 550 through to Cardigan. There's no reason why we couldn't have Cardigan - Aberporth - New Quay - Aberaeron and Cardigan - Aberaeron - Aberystwyth (X50, ie. direct) services every two hours is there?

Do we know that the X50 is being scrapped? Would be a good to see a timetable. In an ideal world some direct X50 services would be great but, if the 50 and 40 are both hourly, is providing another service north of Aberaeron a good use of public money?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Do we know that the X50 is being scrapped? Would be a good to see a timetable.

Yes, it would be good to see a timetable. However, given that the last Christmas bus to Cardigan from Aberystwyth is looking like being a 6:10pm service via New Quay and Aberystwyth I think it is probably safe to say that the 6:15pm X50 service at least has been scrapped. From this, and the need to serve Blaenporth etc., I would guess that either:

• The 50 will run hourly Aberystwyth - Cardigan via New Quay, serving Aberporth on alternate trips, and the X50 will be scrapped or
• The 50 will run hourly Aberystwyth - Synod Inn via New Quay, continuing to Cardigan via Aberporth on alternate trips, and the X50 will remain but only between Aberaeron and Cardigan, probably attempting to connect with the 40/TC1 (because if it connects with the 50 the intervals are less even at the Cardigan end (they aren't ever going to be perfectly even though I think))

In an ideal world some direct X50 services would be great but, if the 50 and 40 are both hourly, is providing another service north of Aberaeron a good use of public money?

Whose to say it would be another service north of Aberaeron. My suggestion would be for the X50 and 50 (Cardigan and New Quay) to alternate north of Aberaeron, so both Cardigan and New Quay get a bus every two hours to Aberystwyth. A hourly service from New Quay would be maintained by running a service to Llanarth or Aberaeron to connect with the X50. The 550 would run Cardigan - Aberporth - New Quay - Aberaeron, connecting with the TC1 at Aberaeron. Therefore, New Quay actually gets a better-than-hourly service (alternating between a gap of arround an hour and one of arround half an hour) to make up for the reduction in through services to Aberystwth. I tried to work out a timetable which would give New Quay a half-hourly service, including one every two hours to Cardigan and one every two hours to Aberystwyth, but couldn't do it without exceeding the current requirement (which I think is four buses for 50 and 550).

The question in my opinion is how to attract more passengers, to reduce car mileage and the subisdy needed to operate the bus service. Therefore if a service is more attractive it is better use of public money. And don't forget that Cribyn lost most scheduled services to speed up the TC1/40.