TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[6Gman]

I'm always intrigued by the vehicle choice for these long-distance services in Ceredigion and beyond. In the old days it was easy! Coaches to Cardiff and ERGs to Cardigan!

But in these days of Disability Discrimination it's a trickier balance. Tempos to Cardiff? Or is there a coach on the market offering decent (instant) accessibility?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm always intrigued by the vehicle choice for these long-distance services in Ceredigion and beyond. In the old days it was easy! Coaches to Cardiff and ERGs to Cardigan!

But in these days of Disability Discrimination it's a trickier balance. Tempos to Cardiff? Or is there a coach on the market offering decent (instant) accessibility?

STOPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!

Check out the last two weeks posts on this thread. Painfully covered

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'm always intrigued by the vehicle choice for these long-distance services in Ceredigion and beyond. In the old days it was easy! Coaches to Cardiff and ERGs to Cardigan!

ERGs? I'm guessing that's a model of bus. Aberystwyth to Cardigan is not easy now, often have to change in Aberaeron.

But in these days of Disability Discrimination it's a trickier balance. Tempos to Cardiff? Or is there a coach on the market offering decent (instant) accessibility?

Tempos to Cardiff was a mistake in my opinion, especially given the two bespoke Tempos built for the job are lacking in legroom and Arriva kept using their other (even less suitable) Tempos on the long runs. TrawsCambria should have just put Tempos on a hourly Aberystwyth - Carmarthen, with rail for onward travel to Cardiff/Swansea, and left the 701 as an occasional express coach to Cardiff.

At least the normal Aberystwyth-Carmarthen service no longer has extensions to Cardiff (Cardiff's a seperate service in addition to the hourly Carmarthens, as it should be).

Would it be feasible for Lloyds to operate the 40 as an extension of the T2 service, that is if it goes out to tender. The dead mileage though from Machynlleth to Aberystwyth is not a goer financially or operationally without a Southern out station.

The T2 is really infrequent and part-operated by Express Motors anyway. I suppose something like increasing the frequency of the X28 might allow Lloyds to reach Carmarthen. Personally, if Lloyds was to get anything I thought it would be the 50 as that could be suitable for double-deckers and run through from Machynlleth as an extension of the X28 (timetable changes permitting).

 

[6Gman]

STOPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!

Check out the last two weeks posts on this thread. Painfully covered

That was why I worded the question as I did!

The (endless) exchanges seemed to be more about how drivers knew where to stop if there was 'hail & ride' style operation, rather than my question which was whether it was currently practical to provide both coach-style comfort AND access for routes like Aber - Cardiff. I'm aware that National Express can offer wheelchair access on some services, but this seems to involve prebooking and boarding at certain locations. A bit different to somebody turning up in Lampeter or by the roadside, in a wheelchair, unannounced.

 

[anthony263]

The new Interdeck from Plaxton is a perfect wheelchaira cessible coach which has a low floor entrance and wheelchair area like a bus with a small step up to the seating area which is like a coach.

Plaxton seem to have got themselves into a good position with this design as a lot of the smaller operators are looking at ordering or have ordered a few.

Van Hool's double deck coaches are wheelchair acessible and this was demonstrated by Mr Clarkson with his P45 car on a episode of top gear recently. The Van Hool double deck coaches would probably only be suitable for the Aberytsywth - Cardiff service.

The Plaxton Interdecks are in my personal opinion as a passenger etc the best suited for the long distance Trawscymru services. Lloyds have a Enviro 400 double decker which I believe is fitted with leather seats, this could be good for use between Aberystwyth & Carmarthen.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The new Interdeck from Plaxton is a perfect wheelchaira cessible coach which has a low floor entrance and wheelchair area like a bus with a small step up to the seating area which is like a coach.

Plaxton seem to have got themselves into a good position with this design as a lot of the smaller operators are looking at ordering or have ordered a few.

Van Hool's double deck coaches are wheelchair acessible and this was demonstrated by Mr Clarkson with his P45 car on a episode of top gear recently. The Van Hool double deck coaches would probably only be suitable for the Aberytsywth - Cardiff service.

The Plaxton Interdecks are in my personal opinion as a passenger etc the best suited for the long distance Trawscymru services.

Regarding Van Hool double deck coaches or Plaxton Interdeck on the 701/20, is a 15metre version of either of these with rear axle steering (which you suggested in a p.m. could manage the tight roundabout at Aberystwyth Morrisons) available?

Lloyds have a Enviro 400 double decker which I believe is fitted with leather seats, this could be good for use between Aberystwyth & Carmarthen.

I think they have two Enviro 400s now actually. I used one of them on the X28 once when the train was terminated at Machynlleth (and was an hour late reaching Aberystwyth and missed the last X50 as a consequence, had to wait for the 550). I don't remember there being anything special (like leather seats) about the X28 double decker.

 

[anthony263]

Yes there is a 15 metre Plaxton Interdeck. New Adventure Travel in Cardiff have two with another 3 on order.

All of them are for private hire and Megabus duties

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes there is a 15 metre Plaxton Interdeck.

Yes, somebody said that a while back. But my question was can you have them with rear-axle steering to get round the tight roundabouts? Or does the 701 not serve Aberystwyth Morrisons anyway?

 

[Bwsbro]

Can't believe my luck finally decided to travel down to Carmarthen from Aberystwyth for the day and what do I get a Dart.

More worryingly was the cost £6.50 for a single. No wonder their pulling out if they charge their passengers that much

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

..... and left the 701 as an occasional express coach to Cardiff.

701 occasional? I hardly think 2 journeys a day weekdays and one on sundays.. 362 days a year can be called occasional!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can't believe my luck finally decided to travel down to Carmarthen from Aberystwyth for the day and what do I get a Dart.

More worryingly was the cost £6.50 for a single. No wonder their pulling out if they charge their passengers that much

should have gone by 701 ALWAYS a coach on there lol
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, somebody said that a while back. But my question was can you have them with rear-axle steering to get round the tight roundabouts? Or does the 701 not serve Aberystwyth Morrisons anyway?

it's not a question of rear axle steering... although that helps... it's also the extra length in the wheelbase.. no 701 does not serve morrisons but that is not the only tight spot on the route... I wouldn't fancy trying to swing a 15m vehicle round Alban Square in Aberaeron for instance...

 

[WestyAds]

More worryingly was the cost £6.50 for a single. No wonder their pulling out if they charge their passengers that much

£6.50 is also the cost of an Arriva Wales & North West day ticket, which was admittedly better value when they were still running town services in Aber and the X32, but would still have covered your return journey when you travelled. If you want even more flexibility and travel beyond Carmarthen, the West Wales day Rover is just an extra 50p. Have to say I've never found the pricing on the Cymru Express/TrawsCambria services particularly overpriced compared with other parts of the UK (but then maybe I just need to get out and about more).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

ERGs? I'm guessing that's a model of bus. Aberystwyth to Cardigan is not easy now, often have to change in Aberaeron.

Don't guess.....research!

However, to make things easier, a short history lesson.

Crosville Motor Services was the major operator in Aberaeron and Aberystwyth and, after 1972, in New Quay and Newcastle Emlyn.

They numbered their vehicles with 3 letters and 3 digits, e.g. ERG278. The three letters indicated the a) type of vehicle (e.g. single deck, double deck, coach etc), b) the model of vehicle (e.g. V for Bristol VR) and c) engine make (e.g. L for Leyland).

ERG278 was therefore an Express (or dual purpose) spec, Bristol RE with a Gardner engine

The ERG's that I think are being referenced were a batch of 1972/3 Bristol REs of which a number were allocated to Newcastle Emlyn depot from the early 1980's until not long before the depot closed.

 

[Rhydgaled]

£6.50 is also the cost of an Arriva Wales & North West day ticket, which was admittedly better value when they were still running town services in Aber and the X32, but would still have covered your return journey when you travelled. If you want even more flexibility and travel beyond Carmarthen, the West Wales day Rover is just an extra 50p.

Day tickets do seem to be very good value around here. The Richards Bros one is £5.50, which I think is cheaper than a return from Cardigan to either Haverfordwest or Aberystwyth.

701 occasional? I hardly think 2 journeys a day weekdays and one on sundays.. 362 days a year can be called occasional!

It's relative. Compared to the 40, or to the rail service between Carmarthen and Swansea, the 701 is occasional.

it's not a question of rear axle steering... although that helps... it's also the extra length in the wheelbase.. no 701 does not serve morrisons but that is not the only tight spot on the route... I wouldn't fancy trying to swing a 15m vehicle round Alban Square in Aberaeron for instance...

Oh yeah, Alban square would be a sticking point too.

They numbered their vehicles with 3 letters and 3 digits, e.g. ERG278. The three letters indicated the a) type of vehicle (e.g. single deck, double deck, coach etc), b) the model of vehicle (e.g. V for Bristol VR) and c) engine make (e.g. L for Leyland).

ERG278 was therefore an Express (or dual purpose) spec, Bristol RE with a Gardner engine

The ERG's that I think are being referenced were a batch of 1972/3 Bristol REs of which a number were allocated to Newcastle Emlyn depot from the early 1980's until not long before the depot closed.

Thanks for explaining.

 

[6Gman]

I looked at the Interdeck but at 15m in length, an impressive height, and - presumably - a suitably massive price it hardly seemed appropriate! And I saw a 75 seat capacity quoted!

The review I read also referred to an awkward staircase, which might be ok for a Birmingham - Glasgow Megabus, but might be tricky for someone travelling from Milepost x to End of Farm Drive y! ( Sorry, couldn't resist that one)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I looked at the Interdeck but at 15m in length, an impressive height, and - presumably - a suitably massive price it hardly seemed appropriate! And I saw a 75 seat capacity quoted!

The review I read also referred to an awkward staircase, which might be ok for a Birmingham - Glasgow Megabus, but might be tricky for someone travelling from Milepost x to End of Farm Drive y! ( Sorry, couldn't resist that one)

You can have a nice Volvo B9R with Plaxton Elite or Profile bodies and they meet DDA requirements and are very nicely appointed. 12m long and used extensively by NatEx and Stagecoach (as mentioned earlier in thread) on similar types of work (e.g. Morayshire Bluebird service 10, Sutherland service 25, Cumbria X5)

You can have them to various capacity. 53 seats seems a bit of a shoehorn job but 47 would be reasonable or even 43!

 

[anthony263]

I would say 43 seats is plenty enough for the Trawscymru services. I forgot about those Volvo B9R's especially since I do occasionally travel on them to London when I use Megabus

 

[Rhydgaled]

You can have a nice Volvo B9R with Plaxton Elite or Profile bodies and they meet DDA requirements and are very nicely appointed. 12m long and used extensively by NatEx and Stagecoach (as mentioned earlier in thread) on similar types of work (e.g. Morayshire Bluebird service 10, Sutherland service 25, Cumbria X5)

You can have them to various capacity. 53 seats seems a bit of a shoehorn job but 47 would be reasonable or even 43!

How do you get 43 seats and a wheelchair space into a 12metre vehicle and still have decent legroom? 40ish+1 wheelchair is the seating capacity of the TrawsCambria Tempos and only the 12.6m examples built for the X50 can boast decent legroom at 4x4 seats.

I would say 43 seats is plenty enough for the Trawscymru services.

I would agree, provided you also have standing room to allow for the rather rare occasions when the number of passengers exceeds 43. If you were using coaches with standing disallowed you might need at least 50-55 seats to allow for busier trips, hence the question of whether 15metre vehicles would be able to cope with the tighest bends on the route (Aberaeron Alban Square and Aberystwyth Morrisons being the concerns rasied so far).

 

[anthony263]

Rhydgaled, I will reconmend you take a trip on National express and see how good the legroom is even with 42 seats and a wheelchair space.

I have taken a 15m coach into the arrival's section of Victoria coach station as have many others, A few members of this forum will no doubt have travelled on Megabus or National Express into Victoria coach station and will see how tight it can be yet they manage ok.
Give me a 15m coach and I will try and see whether or not I can get it around Aberaeron Alban Square.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

How do you get 43 seats and a wheelchair space into a 12metre vehicle and still have decent legroom? 40ish+1 wheelchair is the seating capacity of the TrawsCambria Tempos and only the 12.6m examples built for the X50 can boast decent legroom at 4x4 seats.

How tall are you? 7ft 2??

Stagecoach's B9Rs are either 49 or 51 seaters. Some operators have crammed 53/55 seats into them. Therefore, 43 seats will be more than fine in terms of legroom.

You only keep citing such rubbish because of your obsessive waffling about those Optare Tempos. If they were so brilliant, explain why Stagecoach Go-Ahead, and First have not ordered them, and Arriva have only bought 13!

 

[Rhydgaled]

How tall are you? 7ft 2??

Not sure exactly, but somewhere between 6ft 1 and 6ft 5. Standard legroom is alright for short trips but longer trips can get rather uncomfortable.

Stagecoach's B9Rs are either 49 or 51 seaters.

The standard Tempo X1260 seating layout only manages 47 seats, three of which are tip-ups lost if you put a wheelchair on board. A standard X1200 would be 43 seats, again including the tip-ups in the wheelchair area. How you come you can add 8 extra seats in the same length of vehicle if the vehicle is a coach rather than a bus?

You only keep citing such rubbish because of your obsessive waffling about those Optare Tempos. If they were so brilliant, explain why Stagecoach Go-Ahead, and First have not ordered them, and Arriva have only bought 13!

Rubbish? I like those two Tempos because I've never been on anything like them in terms of legroom. The only thing special about other Tempos really is the looks, so if they are expensive compared to alternatives (I don't know how much buses cost) I can understand that other operators wouldn't want them.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Rubbish? I like those two Tempos because I've never been on anything like them in terms of legroom.

Yes, but by your own admission, you don't actually travel on much other than them so hardly a great statement!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not sure exactly, but somewhere between 6ft 1 and 6ft 5. Standard legroom is alright for short trips but longer trips can get rather uncomfortable.

The standard Tempo X1260 seating layout only manages 47 seats, three of which are tip-ups lost if you put a wheelchair on board. A standard X1200 would be 43 seats, again including the tip-ups in the wheelchair area. How you come you can add 8 extra seats in the same length of vehicle if the vehicle is a coach rather than a bus?

You don't know how tall you are? hock: Let's just say you're 6ft 3in tall. Well, that's about 6 inches taller than average. You can't go round having legroom to suit the tallest person but 43 seats in a 13m body should be good enough for the vast majority of passengers.

The fact is that B9Rs are 13m long. They do manage to have 49 or 51 seats plus a lift. 43 seats would be easily luxurious for one of those.

 

[6Gman]

You can have a nice Volvo B9R with Plaxton Elite or Profile bodies and they meet DDA requirements and are very nicely appointed. 12m long and used extensively by NatEx and Stagecoach (as mentioned earlier in thread) on similar types of work (e.g. Morayshire Bluebird service 10, Sutherland service 25, Cumbria X5)

You can have them to various capacity. 53 seats seems a bit of a shoehorn job but 47 would be reasonable or even 43!

Thanks for that - seems a much better option. Apologies for missing earlier reference, but this ... er ... interesting thread was already past post #360 when I found it!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thanks for that - seems a much better option. Apologies for missing earlier reference, but this ... er ... interesting thread was already past post #360 when I found it!

Entirely understandable

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes, but by your own admission, you don't actually travel on much other than them so hardly a great statement!

I've travelled on most if not all of the TrawsCambria Tempo fleet (only one of the 704 fleet though, on just one occasion) and a fair variety of Richards Bros' buses, mostly on services 412 & 410. Still not a great statement I suppose.

You don't know how tall you are? hock:

As far as I can remember the last time I was actually measured was a few years ago and may have been slightly before I stopped growing. Back then, I was 6ft 1in, and I don't think I'm quite as tall as my father who I think is 6ft 4 or 5.

You can't go round having legroom to suit the tallest person

Maybe not, but leg length isn't necessary proportional to height, my brothers are arround the same height as me but at least one of them has longer legs than I do. Also, even my (very short) grandmother complained that the legroom on an ATW class 150 was not sufficient for a long journey. Her legs fit the space available if she sat straight, but she wanted to move them about more than the legroom allowed.

The fact is that B9Rs are 13m long. They do manage to have 49 or 51 seats plus a lift. 43 seats would be easily luxurious for one of those.

Ah, you said they were 12m long earlier. 43 seats in 13m sounds like a much brighter prospect than 43 seats in 12m.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I've travelled on most if not all of the TrawsCambria Tempo fleet (only one of the 704 fleet though, on just one occasion) and a fair variety of Richards Bros' buses, mostly on services 412 & 410. Still not a great statement I suppose.

As far as I can remember the last time I was actually measured was a few years ago and may have been slightly before I stopped growing. Back then, I was 6ft 1in, and I don't think I'm quite as tall as my father who I think is 6ft 4 or 5.

Maybe not, but leg length isn't necessary proportional to height, my brothers are arround the same height as me but at least one of them has longer legs than I do. Also, even my (very short) grandmother complained that the legroom on an ATW class 150 was not sufficient for a long journey. Her legs fit the space available if she sat straight, but she wanted to move them about more than the legroom allowed.

Ah, you said they were 12m long earlier. 43 seats in 13m sounds like a much brighter prospect than 43 seats in 12m.

Granted leg length isn't always proportional to height....but it generally is a fairly decent guide and they have to work off something.

I checked my facts on B9Rs and they are 13m so apologies for confusion.

And yes, not a great statement. I think you'd really benefit from travelling about and broadening your experience (and I mean that in the most constructive sense).

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The standard Tempo X1260 seating layout only manages 47 seats, three of which are tip-ups lost if you put a wheelchair on board. A standard X1200 would be 43 seats, again including the tip-ups in the wheelchair area. How you come you can add 8 extra seats in the same length of vehicle if the vehicle is a coach rather than a bus?

EASY! because your favourite vehicle the tempo is a low floor bus/ This means that a lot of space is lost because the wheel arches significantly intrude into the passenger space.... whereas on a coach the floor line is above the wheel arches allowing more room for seating.

In the same way half cab single deckers were replaced with underfloor, then rear, engined single deckers... the same thing happened 8 more seats fitted into the same length of vehicle.

I can't help but think that you are being deliberately obtuse in your postings... just a little bit of reseach and even smaller amount of thought and you would be able to answer your own questions....

then again maybe you have shares in tata ( optare's parent company) I can see no other reason for your obsession with these vehicles... remember even optare have as good as admitted they are a flop by introducing the versa (based on their solo) to broadly similar dimensions to the tempo.

 

[swifty]

The standard Tempo X1260 seating layout only manages 47 seats, three of which are tip-ups lost if you put a wheelchair on board. A standard X1200 would be 43 seats, again including the tip-ups in the wheelchair area. How you come you can add 8 extra seats in the same length of vehicle if the vehicle is a coach rather than a bus?

Maybe these diagrams will help you realise what is painfully obvious, the Tempo diagram is on the last page of this PDF (yes I know it's a 12.2m SR but it gives you an idea!) http://www.optare.com/images/brochures/Tempo Spec.pdf

And this is a 12m Plaxton Panther, http://tellingsgoldenmiller.hostinguk.com/images/seat_plans/Coach Plan 49 Seats Center.GIF

As has been mentioned the coach is high floor so there no intrusions into the floor space from the wheel acres etc which allow for more seats to be fitted.

 

[anthony263]

Optares latest version of Solo is not exactly much to shout about.

The last good bus Optare built in my opinion was Solo SE (Baby solo) which in fact is one of my favourite buses.

Anyway how about one of these for the long distance Trawscymru services:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/westernsmt/10785129863/in/photostream/

Not sure what make it is as I have never see this design before although the back reminds me of the old Dennis Javelins

 

[Rhydgaled]

EASY! because your favourite vehicle the tempo is a low floor bus/ This means that a lot of space is lost because the wheel arches significantly intrude into the passenger space.... whereas on a coach the floor line is above the wheel arches allowing more room for seating.

There are two seats above three of the four wheel arches on most of the Tempos (and the standard layout shows one seat above the fourth wheel arch, but this is replaced with a large luggage rack on the TrawsCambria examples).

then again maybe you have shares in tata ( optare's parent company) I can see no other reason for your obsession with these vehicles... remember even optare have as good as admitted they are a flop by introducing the versa (based on their solo) to broadly similar dimensions to the tempo.

I'm not a shareholder. I thought I had already given my reasons for my fondness for Tempos in general (aesthetics, plus they seem to be a little less rattley than some other buses) and the X50 vehicles in particular (legroom). If I was a shareholder wouldn't I also be shouting about the Tempo SR, Solo SR and Versa? The Versa and Solo SR look really silly and the Tempo SR doesn't look as good as the orriginal Tempo.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There are two seats above three of the four wheel arches on most of the Tempos (and the standard layout shows one seat above the fourth wheel arch, but this is replaced with a large luggage rack on the TrawsCambria examples).

I'm not a shareholder. I thought I had already given my reasons for my fondness for Tempos in general (aesthetics, plus they seem to be a little less rattley than some other buses) and the X50 vehicles in particular (legroom). If I was a shareholder wouldn't I also be shouting about the Tempo SR, Solo SR and Versa? The Versa and Solo SR look really silly and the Tempo SR doesn't look as good as the orriginal Tempo.

TL and Swifty are correct though. A coach with an uninterrupted floor plan does enable more seats than a low floor bus, even if they do try to be as clever as possible in accommodating the wheel arches.

Fewer rattles than other buses?....again, you're hamstrung by not exploring more. Don't get me wrong, Tempos are ok in that respect but Volvo B7RLE/Wright Eclipse is probably better having experienced both those and the TC Tempos (though not the X50 ones). Still, both are better than e300s.