TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[TheGrandWazoo]

Wrexham to Rhyl/ Llandudno via Ruthin also under consideration.
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/bus-passengers-befuddled-confused-over-14870419

That Internet forum?? This very thread!

 

[Welshman]

Wrexham-Rhyl via Ruthin is already covered by Arriva routes X51/51/51B, although buses change numbers at Denbigh.

Indeed - and with a better service from March this year and "Sapphire" specification E400s. But the service is quite slow - 2hrs 26mins end to end, stopping at every lamp-post and with a 5-minute break in Denbigh. It would be interesting to see if there is a market for an additional limited-stop service, omitting perhaps the venture into the heart of Llandegla and the tour of St Asaph Industrial Park or Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. The last two services of the day, going direct from Denbigh to Rhyl, are scheduled for 1hr 39min and 1hr 30 mins respectively.

Likewise service 12 Rhyl-Llandudno is supplied with good quality "Sapphire" E400s, but is painfully slow if you are making a through journey [1hr 18 mins], although there are now 5 services running as 12X [utilising what used to be empty moves returning to Rhyl depot]. These omit the tour of Rhos and use the A55 for the last part of the journey from Llandulas to Abergele, and are scheduled to take 51 mins - quite an improvement if you're making the through journey.

I have a 1969-1970 Crosville Timetable, and the L1 "Cymru Coastliner" used to be allowed 45 mins from Rhyl-Llandudno. I appreciate that traffic levels have grown since then, but we also now have the A55 dual carriageway. So would a limited-stop Wrexham-Rhyl-Llandudno service be viable?

 

[Welshman]

That Internet forum?? This very thread!

Remember folks - you first read about it here!

 

[Statto]

Indeed - and with a better service from March this year and "Sapphire" specification E400s. But the service is quite slow - 2hrs 26mins end to end, stopping at every lamp-post and with a 5-minute break in Denbigh. It would be interesting to see if there is a market for an additional limited-stop service, omitting perhaps the venture into the heart of Llandegla and the tour of St Asaph Industrial Park or Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. The last two services of the day, going direct from Denbigh to Rhyl, are scheduled for 1hr 39min and 1hr 30 mins respectively.

Likewise service 12 Rhyl-Llandudno is supplied with good quality "Sapphire" E400s, but is painfully slow if you are making a through journey [1hr 18 mins], although there are now 5 services running as 12X [utilising what used to be empty moves returning to Rhyl depot]. These omit the tour of Rhos and use the A55 for the last part of the journey from Llandulas to Abergele, and are scheduled to take 51 mins - quite an improvement if you're making the through journey.

I have a 1969-1970 Crosville Timetable, and the L1 "Cymru Coastliner" used to be allowed 45 mins from Rhyl-Llandudno. I appreciate that traffic levels have grown since then, but we also now have the A55 dual carriageway. So would a limited-stop Wrexham-Rhyl-Llandudno service be viable?

The problem with North Wales coast routes is the competing rail service, which is much improved in the last 40 years, my 1972 timetable book has the rail service at 2 hourly Bangor-Chester with some additional services, all passengers had to change at Llandudno Junction for Llandudno, now there's an hourly service through to Llandudno, mostly 2 an hour to Holyhead with additional services, the old L1/X1 Cymru Coastliner has suffered that it's was withdrawn since 97.

I'd love a fast Chester-Rhyl bus route, the current 11 group Chester-Rhyl take 2 hours 15 minutes, but don't think a fast bus will make any money, i know there's a fast 11F & 11X but mostly couple of journeys a day for positioning rather than running dead

 

[markymark2000]

I'd love a fast Chester-Rhyl bus route, the current 11 group Chester-Rhyl take 2 hours 15 minutes, but don't think a fast bus will make any money, i know there's a fast 11F & 11X but mostly couple of journeys a day for positioning rather than running dead

I do fully agree. You could knock 20 mins off the 11 just by making it go down Sealand Road rather than via Broughton (swap the Sapphire 10 and the 11 over so no area in unserved)

The issue is the 11 serves too many little villages. Not necessarily because they make money but the bus runs alongside is anyway so for the sake of 1 minute extra, they might as well run in and try to grab a few passengers. It's a shame there isn't an proper 11X in the summer. Rhyl - Prestatyn - Flint - Connahs Quay (maybe) - Chester. If you charged £7 return. Chester - Rhyl you might make some money.

The issue with all the TrawsCymru is that it won't expand out of Wales. Chester is a key hub into North Wales. Like this Wrexham - North Wales Coast route. Though it may work, it would mixx out very key areas. The most direct and quickest route wouldn't serve Airbus which is the biggest employer in the area. Wrexham - Chester has a big market. As does Chester to North Wales Coast. Combined would make a much more viable route compared to Wrexham - Flint then onto Rhyl.

I hope that they plan these routes carefully and don't make a mess of them like they have done one some other routes.

 

[Statto]

Arriva Wales day ticket is £5.50 so return fares wouldn't more than that if any fast Chester-Rhyl is operated by Arriva, problem is those in Flint & Deeside most likely want to go to either Chester or Liverpool rather than the other way. TrawsCymru not expanding out of Wales seems daft with Chester a major hub for North Wales services.

TrawsCymru could serve Chester City Centre then non stop to Saltney with parts of Saltney being in Wales although a suburb of Chester, then on to Rhyl & beyond

 

[radamfi]

TrawsCymru not expanding out of Wales seems daft with Chester a major hub for North Wales services.

But where could it go in England where it wouldn't duplicate rail services? There is Oswestry, which doesn't have a rail station (although Gobowen is quite close) and Oswestry has already been mentioned earlier.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But where could it go in England where it wouldn't duplicate rail services? There is Oswestry, which doesn't have a rail station (although Gobowen is quite close) and Oswestry has already been mentioned earlier.

T14 extend from Hay on Wye to Hereford (rather than a hopeful commercial extension)? Also, Llan'dod to Hereford?

 

[markymark2000]

Arriva Wales day ticket is £5.50 so return fares wouldn't more than that if any fast Chester-Rhyl is operated by Arriva, problem is those in Flint & Deeside most likely want to go to either Chester or Liverpool rather than the other way. TrawsCymru not expanding out of Wales seems daft with Chester a major hub for North Wales services.

TrawsCymru could serve Chester City Centre then non stop to Saltney with parts of Saltney being in Wales although a suburb of Chester, then on to Rhyl & beyond

No.. I meant as part of Traws Cymru. Arriva could do 'Arriva Express' or something and say that tickets arent valid but it makes things more confusing. Flint and Deeside mainly want to go into Chester (or onward connections from Chester). The best way to run it would be Wrexham, Chester Business Park (linking the business park to a lot more of Wales), Chester Train Station, Chester Bus Station, Flint then along the coast. This way it is a much needed fast link between Chester and Wrexham. Chester Business Park employs lots of people who live in Wrexham and Chester and you could argue it provides job links for people further away. Chester Train Station has the onward train connections (which many people from Wrexham find useful). Chester Bus Station provides more local bus links (given from Sept almost all buses will go from the bus station and not split between the bus station and train station). I would throw it in Connahs quay but you would need a good 15 minutes buffer time on it. The bus would have to be often though for it to be used between Wrexham and Chester.

But where could it go in England where it wouldn't duplicate rail services? There is Oswestry, which doesn't have a rail station (although Gobowen is quite close) and Oswestry has already been mentioned earlier.

Surely duplicating rail services isn't so much of an issue. You have to link rail services into towns and villages. Look at how well the Arriva Sapphire 1 does but Wrexham has only 1 train per hour to Chester. It's an example of where train services are failing. For some reason, Shotton seems to be a good place for jumpers as well so this would help complement the existing rail services by providing a suitable replacement when something happens.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No.. I meant as part of Traws Cymru. Arriva could do 'Arriva Express' or something and say that tickets arent valid but it makes things more confusing. Flint and Deeside mainly want to go into Chester (or onward connections from Chester). The best way to run it would be Wrexham, Chester Business Park (linking the business park to a lot more of Wales), Chester Train Station, Chester Bus Station, Flint then along the coast. This way it is a much needed fast link between Chester and Wrexham. Chester Business Park employs lots of people who live in Wrexham and Chester and you could argue it provides job links for people further away. Chester Train Station has the onward train connections (which many people from Wrexham find useful). Chester Bus Station provides more local bus links (given from Sept almost all buses will go from the bus station and not split between the bus station and train station). I would throw it in Connahs quay but you would need a good 15 minutes buffer time on it. The bus would have to be often though for it to be used between Wrexham and Chester.


Surely duplicating rail services isn't so much of an issue. You have to link rail services into towns and villages. Look at how well the Arriva Sapphire 1 does but Wrexham has only 1 train per hour to Chester. It's an example of where train services are failing. For some reason, Shotton seems to be a good place for jumpers as well so this would help complement the existing rail services by providing a suitable replacement when something happens.

It didn't seem too needed when the X94 was extended from Wrexham to Chester.

Duplication of rail services is often a misnomer, as you say. Bus services will link the multitude of villages to places like Chester business park, providing links that the rail cannot provide.

 

[radamfi]

Surely duplicating rail services isn't so much of an issue. You have to link rail services into towns and villages. Look at how well the Arriva Sapphire 1 does but Wrexham has only 1 train per hour to Chester. It's an example of where train services are failing. For some reason, Shotton seems to be a good place for jumpers as well so this would help complement the existing rail services by providing a suitable replacement when something happens.

Bus services that serve intermediate locations not served by train are not duplicating the rail service. Earlier on there was discussion about providing express services between Chester and the north Wales coast, which would be somewhat more of a duplication.

 

[Bwsbro]

The T4 including a short Sunday T11 alongside the T14 tender has been awarded to Stagecoach

 

[adey2011]

The T4 including a short Sunday T11 alongside the T14 tender has been awarded to Stagecoach

I thought the T11 was a stand alone service from Machynlleth - Newtown - Welshpool - Wrexham, if that it true why has a portion of the T4 which is separate from the T11 being given the service number T11, could it just be a typo?

 

[Dai Corner]

I thought the T11 was a stand alone service from Machynlleth - Newtown - Welshpool - Wrexham, if that it true why has a portion of the T4 which is separate from the T11 being given the service number T11, could it just be a typo?

The T4 goes to Newtown. On a Sunday in the current timetable there is a layover there from 1410 to 1500 so perhaps they're doing something with that?

 

[adey2011]

The T4 goes to Newtown. On a Sunday in the current timetable there is a layover there from 1410 to 1500 so perhaps they're doing something with that?

Possibly, do you know if the T11/12 tenders been issued yet by the relevant Councils

 

[Statto]

The T4 goes to Newtown. On a Sunday in the current timetable there is a layover there from 1410 to 1500 so perhaps they're doing something with that?

Ironically i think the old TrawsCambria Liverpool-Cardiff[702] route had a rest break in Newtown, coach arrived 14.10 & departed 1500 in both directions

 

[Bwsbro]

The T4’s tender documents implies a major change to the T4 Sunday service with buses operating between Llandrindod Wells and Newtown via Llangurig & Llanidloes.

A additional T11 working diagram was tendered as a AM & PM journey to/from Llanidloes working off the T4 diagram

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Ironically i think the old TrawsCambria Liverpool-Cardiff[702] route had a rest break in Newtown, coach arrived 14.10 & departed 1500 in both directions

I'd like to know what all the original TrawsCamria routes [7xx] were, sounds interesting, how come many were withdrawn/curtailed and downgraded to service buses that never provided the same comfort/facilities that coaches do? Ideally, TrawsCymru should invest in some of the new B8RLE Plaxton Panther coaches similar to those used by Stagecoach East Scotland on various express routes from Dunfermline! They combine coach comforts (comfy reclining seats, air conditioning, luggage space, etc.) with low floor accessibility of a bus so would be perfect for the sort of long distance routes in Wales!

 

[carlberry]

I'd like to know what all the original TrawsCamria routes [7xx] were, sounds interesting, how come many were withdrawn/curtailed and downgraded to service buses that never provided the same comfort/facilities that coaches do? Ideally, TrawsCymru should invest in some of the new B8RLE Plaxton Panther coaches similar to those used by Stagecoach East Scotland on various express routes from Dunfermline! They combine coach comforts (comfy reclining seats, air conditioning, luggage space, etc.) with low floor accessibility of a bus so would be perfect for the sort of long distance routes in Wales!

I'll try to find details this evening however, from memory the services were provided in the late 1970s at least one of which replaced a Crosville/Western Welsh coach service that dated back many years. The 700 went via Mid Wales (Brecon/Newtown) and the 701 via West Wales (Aberystwyth). I think the 702 was a later addition and didn't last long. Crosville and National Welsh provided a coach from each end with the drivers swapping over at the rest break point (basically the drivers rest stop). Various changes happened over the years including extending to Bristol at one point however the had all gone many years before the WAG Traws Cymru services were launched. The independent worked 701 from Aberystwyth wasnt ever part of Traws but was basically the southern end of the old 701. All of them were coach services and most of the routes they covered also had bus services (at the time).
The WAG Traws is much more a bus service that covers long distances so the vehicles had to reflect the need for local journeys. As you say there are now vehicles that migh offer a better match, however they are not going to beat something like:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/semmytrailer/4092472981/!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'd like to know what all the original TrawsCamria routes [7xx] were, sounds interesting, how come many were withdrawn/curtailed and downgraded to service buses that never provided the same comfort/facilities that coaches do? Ideally, TrawsCymru should invest in some of the new B8RLE Plaxton Panther coaches similar to those used by Stagecoach East Scotland on various express routes from Dunfermline! They combine coach comforts (comfy reclining seats, air conditioning, luggage space, etc.) with low floor accessibility of a bus so would be perfect for the sort of long distance routes in Wales!

The original TrawsCambria routes were essentially once a day coach services that were jointly operated by Crosville and National Welsh (IIRC) - some were summer only, I think.

However, the modern day TC network is really just a succession of existing local bus services that have been melded together to create through routes - only the T1C and the old 701 (don't bite my head off Teflon - I don't want to invoke your displeasure but I am summarising things rather than reflecting the differences) reflect the 1980's TC ethos with the old 701 running once or twice a day (as per the more recent incarnation) from Bangor to Aber to Cardiff.

For instance (and apologise in advance if the odd service number is wrong):

• The T1 is really the old 550 Crosville Wales/Arriva service from Aberystwyth to Aberaeron and the old Davies Bros/First Cymru 201/2 (apologise - it may have had another 4** number) from Aberaeron to Lampeter to Carmarthen service.
• The T4 is formed of one quarter of the X4 Cardiff to Merthyr route (so a proper limited stop), then the 43 (operated by 60/60 Coaches or Stagecoach) and then a range of infrequent and market day runs north of Brecon.

They really are long distance bus services these days, rather than coach services that the TrawsCambria routes were.

Back in the mists of time were similar long distance routes such as the Western Welsh Aberystwyth to Ammanford 610/611 that later became the Crosville S52, though running from Lampeter via Llanwrda rather than Carmarthen but again these used buses with high backed seats or standard buses - the route south of Lampeter died at deregulation.

 

[carlberry]

I'd like to know what all the original TrawsCamria routes [7xx] were, sounds interesting, how come many were withdrawn/curtailed and downgraded to service buses that never provided the same comfort/facilities that coaches do? Ideally, TrawsCymru should invest in some of the new B8RLE Plaxton Panther coaches similar to those used by Stagecoach East Scotland on various express routes from Dunfermline! They combine coach comforts (comfy reclining seats, air conditioning, luggage space, etc.) with low floor accessibility of a bus so would be perfect for the sort of long distance routes in Wales!

The Wikipedia article does cover most of the details:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrawsCambria

 

[krus_aragon]

Here's a map of the 701 and 702 routes from a 1994 timetable cover (courtesy of eBay):

 

[backontrack]

Here's a map of the 701 and 702 routes from a 1994 timetable cover (courtesy of eBay):
View attachment 49450

Birkenhead to Cardiff via Llangurig.

What a trip that must have been!

 

[johntrawscymru]

A ""high level"" review has been carried out by Professor Stuart Cole on the T3 Wrexham to Barmouth route (Ken Skates commissioned the ""high level"" review on 14/11/2017 on the T3 Aberystwyth to Wrexham route ??!!). The review is a one page "suggested action plan" which does not mention the Aberystwyth to Wrexham route. The main recommendation on connections is to link the new T10 Bangor to Chirk/Oswestry with the T3 Wrexham to Barmouth (in Ken Skates country of South Clwyd at Corwen or Llangollen.). Oh the joys of being a Transport Minister and arranging a Trawescymru network for the benefit of his own constituents.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

A ""high level"" review has been carried out by Professor Stuart Cole on the T3 Wrexham to Barmouth route (Ken Skates commissioned the ""high level"" review on 14/11/2017 on the T3 Aberystwyth to Wrexham route ??!!). The review is a one page "suggested action plan" which does not mention the Aberystwyth to Wrexham route. The main recommendation on connections is to link the new T10 Bangor to Chirk/Oswestry with the T3 Wrexham to Barmouth (in Ken Skates country of South Clwyd at Corwen or Llangollen.). Oh the joys of being a Transport Minister and arranging a Trawescymru network for the benefit of his own constituents.

high level? does that mean the review was carried out on the top deck of a T3?

 

[Dai Corner]

high level? does that mean the review was carried out on the top deck of a T3?

Or maybe with the aid of satellite imagery, saving the time and expense of visiting the areas to be served?

 

[johntrawscymru]

high level? does that mean the review was carried out on the top deck of a T3?

Cannot be on the top deck as I have struggled to see any passengers on either deck in midweek . The T3 service is only used at weekends when Ken's constituents can go for a free trip to the seaside . I am a card carrier myself and think everyone should pay something for the privilige of long distancec travel. Ken has taken the strategic long distance service to a new level with all the empty double deckers trundling along the T3 route. The free weekend travel was done purely so that he could report astronomic passenger growth figures and justify extra services being put on which he did in January 2018. I have asked the WAG for passenger numbers on this route but the information request was considered to be "vexatious" and no answers came back

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I have asked the WAG for passenger numbers on this route but the information request was considered to be "vexatious" and no answers came back

makes a change from the usual excuse of "commercially sensitive" I suppose

 

[johntrawscymru]

Or maybe with the aid of satellite imagery, saving the time and expense of visiting the areas to be served?

No . Satellite imagery is not required. Professor Cole is a consultant for the WAG and if you look at his publicity, which he frequently obtains by giving lectures here and there, he is always introduced as a "guru" in the world of tranport. He therefore has no need of satellite imagery and all he has to do is sit cross legged and meditate and a full picture of the future Trawscymru Network appears as if by magic. He is of course chairman of the Welsh Government Transport Strategy Group where he has been using the same technique for the last 15 years. I have asked Ken to explain why his guru has done a "high-level" review of the wrong route but I expect the answer to be something along the lines off ""What do you expect - the WAG do not have access to satellite imagery""

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Cannot be on the top deck as I have struggled to see any passengers on either deck in midweek . The T3 service is only used at weekends when Ken's constituents can go for a free trip to the seaside . I am a card carrier myself and think everyone should pay something for the privilige of long distancec travel. Ken has taken the strategic long distance service to a new level with all the empty double deckers trundling along the T3 route. The free weekend travel was done purely so that he could report astronomic passenger growth figures and justify extra services being put on which he did in January 2018. I have asked the WAG for passenger numbers on this route but the information request was considered to be "vexatious" and no answers came back

Have you made earlier requests? Are you a marked man???

The T3 having deckers seemed an odd development but I confess, I'd not done the route since Crosville Wales days and didn't know if it was tied in with schools workings necessitating something larger? Still, it is a long established route and whether it goes to Aber or Barmouth isn't something that exercises the mind.

However, my earlier point (that has been used by the Daily Post and attributed to someone else - a "real" person) is this Bangor to Oswestry flight of fancy. You've got one section that is more than adequately served (Bangor to Bethesda) before you head off over the Nant Ffrancon with no people (except climbers) until you reach Capel. Even then, there's precious few houses till you reach Betws and then you're out into a real wilderness by Pentrefoelas - sparsely populated doesn't cover it. By the time you reach relative civilisation, you're duplicating the T3 through Corwen and Llangollen. Where there are real flows of traffic, they're already catered for, so apart from perhaps linking Betws with Bangor for some reason, it is just beyond comprehension.

I find it incredible that money is going to be wasted on something like this, whilst other areas that seem like shoe ins, get overlooked. Such is the way of local democracy!