TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[Dai Corner]

The X7 is using Mercedes benz citaros so no t9 resources are being used plus its doing very well for itself

First and Stagecoach gave it up as it was making big losses. I wonder what's changed (apart from the subsidy)?

 

[tramboy]

The X7 is using Mercedes benz citaros so no t9 resources are being used plus its doing very well for itself

The T9 subsidy is what has been re-purposed to allow the X7 to run - the subsidy I imagine is making the difference!

 

[WelshBuses93]

Two new services to join the network. T19 Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog and T22 Caernarfon to Blaenau Ffestiniog.

Electric buses for TrawsCymru expansion in North Wales - routeone

Six battery-electric buses will come to two new routes in North Wales that are to form part of the interurban country-wide TrawsCymru network, the Welsh Government has announced. The £3.6m investment, which will include associated charging equipment, is part of a wider £11m spend on the North...

www.route-one.net

 

[0B00]

They should get some of those 'Dukws' that were used on Thames river tours for the T19 - ideal for the Conwy Valley wash outs. In fact they could stop running trains down there altogether and combine the bus/rail route using them.

 

[Llandudno]

Two new services to join the network. T19 Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog and T22 Caernarfon to Blaenau Ffestiniog.

Electric buses for TrawsCymru expansion in North Wales - routeone

Six battery-electric buses will come to two new routes in North Wales that are to form part of the interurban country-wide TrawsCymru network, the Welsh Government has announced. The £3.6m investment, which will include associated charging equipment, is part of a wider £11m spend on the North...

www.route-one.net

No mention, of course, when (if) these new services will start.

I would hope the sourcing of the electric buses and charging points wouldn’t take as long as the build and supply of new trains...?

 

[carlberry]

Two new services to join the network. T19 Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog and T22 Caernarfon to Blaenau Ffestiniog.

Electric buses for TrawsCymru expansion in North Wales - routeone

Six battery-electric buses will come to two new routes in North Wales that are to form part of the interurban country-wide TrawsCymru network, the Welsh Government has announced. The £3.6m investment, which will include associated charging equipment, is part of a wider £11m spend on the North...

www.route-one.net

Oddly it says the T19 is going to be Traws Cymru Connect so not part of the network, but given a T number anyway!
With electric buses of course there would be environmental as well as cost benefits from replacing the Llandudno to Blaenau trains with buses!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No mention, of course, when (if) these new services will start.

I would hope the sourcing of the electric buses and charging points wouldn’t take as long as the build and supply of new trains...?

Oddly it says the T19 is going to be Traws Cymru Connect so not part of the network, but given a T number anyway!
With electric buses of course there would be environmental as well as cost benefits from replacing the Llandudno to Blaenau trains with buses!

You've gotta love WG and TrawsCymru. They decide that they are going to have electric vehicles with their attendant emissions benefits and use them on routes that are perhaps some of the most rural ones. Perhaps if they had money to burn, they might have thought of financially supporting electric vehicles in places with people in them?

 

[Dai Corner]

You've gotta love WG and TrawsCymru. They decide that they are going to have electric vehicles with their attendant emissions benefits and use them on routes that are perhaps some of the most rural ones. Perhaps if they had money to burn, they might have thought of financially supporting electric vehicles in places with people in them?

Newport Transport are the proud operators of 15 battery buses part-financed by the *UK* Government, who have also given a grant to Stagecoach to electrify their Caerphilly town services though that is delayed due to the pandemic.

 

[Welshman]

I am puzzled.

I thought the original intention of the Traws-Cambria/Trans Cymru network was to supplement the rail network and bridge the rail-less gaps, eg. Wrexham-Dolgellau-Barmouth and Bangor-Dolgellau-Aberystwyth.

Now, hot on the heels of the news that the WG is assuming full responsibility for the rail network and just after the Conwy Valley line has re-opened after thousands of pounds spent repairing flood damage comes the news that the exisiting limited Llew Jones X19 service is to be replaced by a new Traws Cymru T19 between Llandudno and Blaenau Ffestiniog. Is there the market for such competition in the Conwy Valley? It seems a case that one hand of the WG does not know what the other is doing.

And Caernarfon-Blaenau Ffestiniog? Is there a demand for such a service? Express Motors ran such a route until they withdrew in disgrace several years ago. I occasionally travelled on it then, and it seemed just a convenience of linking the Bangor- Caernarfon-Porthmadog and Porthmadog-Blaeneau Ffestiniog sections, with few through passengers.

A more useful service would be a guaranteed connection with the trains at BF interchange for Dolgellau/Aberystwyth/Welshpool, providing Llandudno with a good, reliable north-south link along the A470.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The X19 isn't competing with the Conwy Valley, it's filling in the gaps between the existing 0.333tph service. There's long been some sort of bus service along there.

 

[Welshman]

Sorry - I didn't mean to imply the X19 was competing with the rail service, but that the proposed T19 probably will be.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Newport Transport are the proud operators of 15 battery buses part-financed by the *UK* Government, who have also given a grant to Stagecoach to electrify their Caerphilly town services though that is delayed due to the pandemic.

Yeah, I know that they’re getting Yutong electrics in Newport and Optare EVs in Caerphilly (though delayed with Covid) but even so, I can’t see the point of electric buses in the wilds rather than in Swansea, Cardiff or Wrexham.

 

[markymark2000]

And Caernarfon-Blaenau Ffestiniog? Is there a demand for such a service? Express Motors ran such a route until they withdrew in disgrace several years ago. I occasionally travelled on it then, and it seemed just a convenience of linking the Bangor- Caernarfon-Porthmadog and Porthmadog-Blaeneau Ffestiniog sections, with few through passengers.

I think you are forgetting who we are dealing with here. The Welsh Govt don't care about demand, just their political career and wasting money. As long as at least 1 person per week uses the bus, they will call it a success.

 

[Llandudno]

I think you are forgetting who we are dealing with here. The Welsh Govt don't care about demand, just their political career and wasting money. As long as at least 1 person per week uses the bus, they will call it a success.

Yes, and they will probably give free travel on the entire network at weekends as well!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry - I didn't mean to imply the X19 was competing with the rail service, but that the proposed T19 probably will be.

I don't think it will, I suspect it'll be timed to complement the train service, basically just replacing the X19 which is a tendered route anyway.

They are essentially just progressively upgrading tendered routes to Traws spec.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I am puzzled.

I thought the original intention of the Traws-Cambria/Trans Cymru network was to supplement the rail network and bridge the rail-less gaps, eg. Wrexham-Dolgellau-Barmouth and Bangor-Dolgellau-Aberystwyth.

Now, hot on the heels of the news that the WG is assuming full responsibility for the rail network and just after the Conwy Valley line has re-opened after thousands of pounds spent repairing flood damage comes the news that the exisiting limited Llew Jones X19 service is to be replaced by a new Traws Cymru T19 between Llandudno and Blaenau Ffestiniog. Is there the market for such competition in the Conwy Valley? It seems a case that one hand of the WG does not know what the other is doing.

How is Llew Jones doing financially? There seems to be a trend that, when the Welsh Government directly fund a bus service (often due to the operator running out of money), they apply the TrawsCymru / TrawsCymru Connect brand regardless of the original plan for what TrawsCymru was going to be. Is that the case here?

You've gotta love WG and TrawsCymru. They decide that they are going to have electric vehicles with their attendant emissions benefits and use them on routes that are perhaps some of the most rural ones. Perhaps if they had money to burn, they might have thought of financially supporting electric vehicles in places with people in them?

It doesn't matter how many people places have in them; if the Welsh Government are serious about meeting their transport sector emissions targets then they will need to accelerate roll out of electric (and/or hydrogen) buses EVERYWHERE, and quickly. They are "Aiming to reduce the carbon footprint of buses to zero by 2028" - they will probably need to ban sales of new diesel buses too.

I don't think it will, I suspect it'll be timed to complement the train service, basically just replacing the X19 which is a tendered route anyway.

They are essentially just progressively upgrading tendered routes to Traws spec.

What does 'upgrading to Traws spec.' mean anyway? It just seems to be WiFi, direct WAG funding (rather than purely local authority subsidy) and, for routes not subtitled 'Connect', 'leather' seat coverings with 'TrawsCymru' embrioded on them. The original idea of better legroom and coach-style seats seems to have been quickly dropped.

 

[carlberry]

How is Llew Jones doing financially? There seems to be a trend that, when the Welsh Government directly fund a bus service (often due to the operator running out of money), they apply the TrawsCymru / TrawsCymru Connect brand regardless of the original plan for what TrawsCymru was going to be. Is that the case here?

What routes have become Traws because the operator ran out of money? The only recent Traws introduction (to Bristol) was because nobody else would subsidise it.

It doesn't matter how many people places have in them; if the Welsh Government are serious about meeting their transport sector emissions targets then they will need to accelerate roll out of electric (and/or hydrogen) buses EVERYWHERE, and quickly. They are "Aiming to reduce the carbon footprint of buses to zero by 2028" - they will probably need to ban sales of new diesel buses too.

Their current approach to funding bus services during the pandemic suggests the approach they're taking is not to have any buses running by 2028! Are they applying the same rules to trains, the plane service they subsidise and the airport they own?

 

[Rhydgaled]

What routes have become Traws because the operator ran out of money? The only recent Traws introduction (to Bristol) was because nobody else would subsidise it.

Ok, maybe "the operator ran out of money" wasn't quite the right way of saying it, but that's basically what I meant. Ie. the operator couldn't run it commercially and wasn't getting (enough) subsidy from local authorities so nobody but the Welsh Government would (sufficiently) subsidise it. The T1 was of course originally meant to be a TrawsCymru route (TC1) but until Arriva had made losses (or not enough profit) in Aberystwyth and pulled out it wasn't made TrawsCymru. Similarly the T5 (although possibly planned anyway) came about when Arriva left Aberystwyth, although part of that was the TrawsCambria X50/550 anyway.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It doesn't matter how many people places have in them; if the Welsh Government are serious about meeting their transport sector emissions targets then they will need to accelerate roll out of electric (and/or hydrogen) buses EVERYWHERE, and quickly. They are "Aiming to reduce the carbon footprint of buses to zero by 2028" - they will probably need to ban sales of new diesel buses too.

It is, of course, desirable to have electric or hydrogen vehicles everywhere. However, it won't be achieved quickly.

At a time when investment is at the lower end of things and they are aiming to roll out zero emission vehicles, it would make sense to have them where they can do most benefit. Using the link you provided, the idea is to get the most public health benefits and so it would make sense to have them where there is the most people, and where the greatest issues are as shown on this map http://lle.gov.wales/map/airbornepo...h,0.8;95h,0.8;353,0.8;&m=-4.13762,53.07225,10

Some of the most pressing issues that support electric vehicles are not the just the global issues but the much more acute problem of emissions of particulates and NO2 and how these are directly impacting people's health. Therefore, whilst it is positive that places like Newport and Caerphilly are getting electric vehicles, the sense of putting them on routes that traverse sparsely populated areas is lost on me.

It would be more sensible and more beneficial to have 6 electric vehicles operating local services in Wrexham, for example, than pootling around Llanrwst and Blaenau.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be more sensible and more beneficial to have 6 electric vehicles operating local services in Wrexham, for example, than pootling around Llanrwst and Blaenau.

Agreed. And in doing so, relatively new city buses can be cascaded to rural routes, giving an improvement there, too.

Having said that, I think Snowdon Sherpa would be another good target, because you just might get tourists out of their cars with some serious environmental credentials that just don't come from a 5 year old diesel bus.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Ok, maybe "the operator ran out of money" wasn't quite the right way of saying it, but that's basically what I meant. Ie. the operator couldn't run it commercially and wasn't getting (enough) subsidy from local authorities so nobody but the Welsh Government would (sufficiently) subsidise it. The T1 was of course originally meant to be a TrawsCymru route (TC1) but until Arriva had made losses (or not enough profit) in Aberystwyth and pulled out it wasn't made TrawsCymru. Similarly the T5 (although possibly planned anyway) came about when Arriva left Aberystwyth, although part of that was the TrawsCambria X50/550 anyway.

That's not quite correct.

The X40 (and X41) were WG TrawsCambria services from the mid 2000s using your beloved Tempos. It was only when Arriva feared that they would lose them under tender (as the T1), as they essentially underpinned their Aber depot, that they then registered them as Cymru Express and put some Pulsars on there.

So it was always the intention for that route to be an integral part of the TC network; it was before Arriva registered the 40/50 and was after Arriva elected to exit Aber.

Agreed. And in doing so, relatively new city buses can be cascaded to rural routes, giving an improvement there, too.

Having said that, I think Snowdon Sherpa would be another good target, because you just might get tourists out of their cars with some serious environmental credentials that just don't come from a 5 year old diesel bus.

Don't get me onto the Snowdon Sherpa.... Gwynedd Council (and Conwy too) do support bus services and we should be thankful for that but their inability to work with the National Park is the fundamental reason why the network has not prospered as it should have done over the last thirty years. Poor marketing, poor planning, and even a five year old diesel bus would be an improvement over this https://www.flickr.com/photos/quick...-2bjshzK-NWZ7DH-2cHdhTD-dARVi3-NWZzcx-29WzvhQ
that I recall catching with a full standing load from Pen-y-pass to Caernarfon with a raft of wet, Goretex wearing walkers who had decided the weather was too wet for them!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Some of the most pressing issues that support electric vehicles are not the just the global issues but the much more acute problem of emissions of particulates and NO2 and how these are directly impacting people's health. Therefore, whilst it is positive that places like Newport and Caerphilly are getting electric vehicles, the sense of putting them on routes that traverse sparsely populated areas is lost on me.

It would be more sensible and more beneficial to have 6 electric vehicles operating local services in Wrexham, for example, than pootling around Llanrwst and Blaenau.

Sure, if you're only going to have 6 electric vehicles (or will be rolling them out slowly) it would make more sense to put them in areas where air quality is a problem (to start with). I was just saying that I don't see a problem with Llanrwst and Blaenau having electric buses as well as in the big cities.

The X40 (and X41) were WG TrawsCambria services from the mid 2000s using your beloved Tempos. It was only when Arriva feared that they would lose them under tender (as the T1), as they essentially underpinned their Aber depot, that they then registered them as Cymru Express and put some Pulsars on there.

So it was always the intention for that route to be an integral part of the TC network; it was before Arriva registered the 40/50 and was after Arriva elected to exit Aber.

You're right; I hadn't forgotten I just left all that bit out (although the Tempos I really love are YJ55BKE/BKF which weren't used on the X40/X41). My point that Carmarthen-Aberystwyth was originally meant to be a TrawsCymru route but was delayed until subsidy was needed still stands.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Sure, if you're only going to have 6 electric vehicles (or will be rolling them out slowly) it would make more sense to put them in areas where air quality is a problem (to start with). I was just saying that I don't see a problem with Llanrwst and Blaenau having electric buses as well as in the big cities.

Ultimately, zero emission will come; First have stated that they will aim to be "zero emission" by 2035 through biomethane, electric or hydrogen. However, in the early days (and these are early days), the greatest health benefits will be in the more urban areas.

You're right; I hadn't forgotten I just left all that bit out (although the Tempos I really love are YJ55BKE/BKF which weren't used on the X40/X41). My point that Carmarthen-Aberystwyth was originally meant to be a TrawsCymru route but was delayed until subsidy was needed still stands.

In terms of the X40/X41 and its predecessors, the need for subsidy is more nuanced. For Aber to Synod Inn 550/551, daytime services pre 2005 were commercial IIRC with support for evening and Sunday runs. The 201 from Aberaeron to Carmarthen was two hourly with a mix of supported and commercial though at a lower frequency.

When WG decided that they wanted to create the X40 (and X41 variant), they provided the Tempos and also provided subsidy; the Arriva runs were supported via a tender administered by Ceredigion whilst the First ones (subsequently taken on by Arriva) were via a tender administered by Carmarthenshire. It was already a WG route, just under the TrawsCambria brand on existing/amended liveries for Arriva and First.

It was only when Arriva, scared that they would lose the new T1 tender and so lose most of their Aber work) that they then registered the 40/50 commercially. Arguably, they were never going to be able to sustain that level of service south of Synod Inn on a longer term basis.

EDIT: there was the Arriva 701 running through to Cardiff before the X40; one of the original TrawsCambria from the late 70s

 

[peterblue]

The separate TC service from BF to Caernafon doesn't really make any sense. Surely it would make more sense to continue the X19/T19 with funding onto Porthmadog where changes can be made onto the T2 either north or south.

The combined bus/rail arrangement in the conwy valley is also ludicrous. Stick with one or the other.

 

[algytaylor]

Don't get the negatively towards TC. Use both the T3 & T12 from Wrexham periodically, and have generally been impressed. The T12 in particular is a cracking service - a big improvement on existing bus services in that direction.

I get the T19 is slightly duplicative of the existing rail services, but I'd guess that the train isn't frequent with for real life, daily usage. Different line, but I expect the same problem - my parents live in Knighton, I live in Wrexham, both served by rail. Realistically it's next to impossible for me to visit them by public transport. I have to get at least one lift from/to Ludlow or Craven Arms ... sometimes both ways. Equally for them, the timing of the trains means the Knighton-Llandrindod service is useless despite being two stations on the same line, with Llandrindod being the closest reasonable sized settlement to Knighton.

I suppose my point is that just having an in-use railway station isn't sufficient. Frequency (or rather, services running from the right place at the right time) is key. I'd be inclined to believe someone if they told me the Conwy Valley line didn't suit their needs as a passenger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The X1 was duplicative. The X19/T19 fills in the gaps in the rail service. The timetables are different.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Don't get the negatively towards TC. Use both the T3 & T12 from Wrexham periodically, and have generally been impressed. The T12 in particular is a cracking service - a big improvement on existing bus services in that direction.

I get the T19 is slightly duplicative of the existing rail services, but I'd guess that the train isn't frequent with for real life, daily usage. Different line, but I expect the same problem - my parents live in Knighton, I live in Wrexham, both served by rail. Realistically it's next to impossible for me to visit them by public transport. I have to get at least one lift from/to Ludlow or Craven Arms ... sometimes both ways. Equally for them, the timing of the trains means the Knighton-Llandrindod service is useless despite being two stations on the same line, with Llandrindod being the closest reasonable sized settlement to Knighton.

I suppose my point is that just having an in-use railway station isn't sufficient. Frequency (or rather, services running from the right place at the right time) is key. I'd be inclined to believe someone if they told me the Conwy Valley line didn't suit their needs as a passenger.

With TC, it's a bit of a mixed bag. They have done some very good things, creating some new links on top of the "core" services that already existed (X94 - T3, X40 - T1, X32 - T2) such as the original 704/T4 north of Brecon.

However, there are some corridors that seem to be ripe for investment and haven't been, and that's before we get onto the aborted farcical proposal for a route from Chirk to Bangor via Betws and nowhere else, as well as free travel on a Saturday.

The T19 is designed to compliment rather than compete with the Conwy Valley Line, as you say.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose my point is that just having an in-use railway station isn't sufficient. Frequency (or rather, services running from the right place at the right time) is key. I'd be inclined to believe someone if they told me the Conwy Valley line didn't suit their needs as a passenger.

Agreed, the timetable doesn't really provide for any needs if you look at it. On the speculative thread, I've proposed an alternative which still only requires one unit/crew but actually does provide for likely demand.

 

[peterblue]

In an idea world, although not wholly realistic, there should be all-trains or all-buses along the Conwy valley rather than the awkward mix of both at present.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In an idea world, although not wholly realistic, there should be all-trains or all-buses along the Conwy valley rather than the awkward mix of both at present.

Not knowing it so well (though knowing the area) but suspect that the fact it’s mostly single line would preclude increasing the rail frequency without a lot of investment. Similarly, closing the line would be political dynamite.

Running some extra buses, in that light, makes sense.