Trivia: Ideas and concepts that didn't work out

[stadler]

I think that TFL Visitor Pass rip off ticket deserves a mention as a concept that failed. That lasted for a very short time.

TFL launched the Visitor Pass ticket in June 2018 and it only lasted about six months. It was a paper ticket available from all London Underground TVMs but it cost the exact same price as a Travelcard but excluded National Rail services except London Overground and TFL Rail services. It was valid for travelling on all London Underground / London Overground / TFL Rail / Docklands Light Railway / Croydon Tramlink / London Buses within the Z1 to Z6 area. But it was not valid on any other National Rail services.

It seemed like a massive scam or a rip off at the very least. On the TVMs you could select a Z1 to Z6 Visitor Pass or select a Z1 to Z6 Travelcard which both cost the exact same price. However the Visitor Pass had far less validity despite the fact it cost the same price.

I believe the idea behind it was that TFL would keep 100% of the ticket price rather than having to give some to the National Rail TOCs. But it never really caught on and was withdrawn after about six months.

 

[MP33]

I am sure that a few Heritage Railways, had trains with a disco, that ran in the late evening.

 

[stuu]

Italy also used to require all tickets to be validated, including for long distance journeys, but I believe that you now only need to do it for regional journeys.

Italy has done something even more stupid and made regional tickets only valid on a specific service. But you can change that for nothing, so effectively it isn't for a specific service, they have just made it more awkward for passengers for no obvious reason

 

[Zamalek]

They were indeed, and probably still are on many of their bus, metro and tram networks, but SNCF abolished ticket validation ("compostage") for long distance journeys from the start of 2023 and it's being phased out for regional journeys as discussed in this thread:

SNCF abolishes ticket validation ("compostage")

As well as RATP phasing out paper tickets as covered in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/end-of-the-line-for-paris’-iconic-metro-ticket.237990/ another time-honoured feature of French ticketing systems is also now on its way out: SNCF ticket validators ("composteurs"). I have...

www.railforums.co.uk

Italy also used to require all tickets to be validated, including for long distance journeys, but I believe that you now only need to do it for regional journeys.

In Italy, tickets bought on the Trenitalia app are auto-validated at the scheduled time of departure of the ticket purchased (you need to specify which train you're going to be on - although you can change this on the app before departure).

 

[Krokodil]

Italy has done something even more stupid and made regional tickets only valid on a specific service. But you can change that for nothing, so effectively it isn't for a specific service, they have just made it more awkward for passengers for no obvious reason

Have they been employing management consultants from the UK?

 

[AY1975]

I think that TFL Visitor Pass rip off ticket deserves a mention as a concept that failed. That lasted for a very short time.

TFL launched the Visitor Pass ticket in June 2018 and it only lasted about six months. It was a paper ticket available from all London Underground TVMs but it cost the exact same price as a Travelcard but excluded National Rail services except London Overground and TFL Rail services. It was valid for travelling on all London Underground / London Overground / TFL Rail / Docklands Light Railway / Croydon Tramlink / London Buses within the Z1 to Z6 area. But it was not valid on any other National Rail services.

It seemed like a massive scam or a rip off at the very least. On the TVMs you could select a Z1 to Z6 Visitor Pass or select a Z1 to Z6 Travelcard which both cost the exact same price. However the Visitor Pass had far less validity despite the fact it cost the same price.

I believe the idea behind it was that TFL would keep 100% of the ticket price rather than having to give some to the National Rail TOCs. But it never really caught on and was withdrawn after about six months.

A couple of other short-lived TfL products from the 2000s: the LT Card (likewise valid on all TfL modes but not national rail, as I recall it was priced more expensive than an off-peak One Day Travelcard but cheaper than a peak/anytime One Day Travelcard) and "carnets" of ten single journey tickets for Zone 1 Tube journeys. I would guess that the carnets were rendered obsolete by Oyster.

Another thing I don't think has been mentioned is BR's "Intercity Shuttle" concept from the early 90s just before privatisation.

 

[DM352]

The cross city express in 86 which missed out stations between Sutton Coldfield and New St, and the other side Kings Norton? - New St skipped with a different diagram to avoid catching up a stopper.

Used 116's and it took a while to get to at most 50mph and think it was 36 mins Lichfield City to New Street limited stop. similar to later all stops after electrification with emus before all the time padding added. I think it ended around when the 115 / 116 4 car underpowered snail service started but more likely not being good to miss out West Midland PTE stations

I think it competed with the then new West Midland Travel Timesaver bus services that used the A38 which was itself downgraded off peak via the slow Four Oaks route.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

In Italy, tickets bought on the Trenitalia app are auto-validated at the scheduled time of departure of the ticket purchased (you need to specify which train you're going to be on - although you can change this on the app before departure).

Yes I found this out when I went to Sicily a few years ago. Totally pointless. Meant that we had to really plan and commit to our trip to Catania.

 

[Peter Wilde]

Does the Turbomotive count as an idea that didn't work out?

It was a mechanically beautiful machine, but there's a reason it never really took off...

By all accounts it was not a failure, basically capable of being as good as its mechanically normal sisters and with some advantages.

But it was not so very much better as to make it worth building a new fleet of them.

Single prototypes are expensive and problematic to keep running (no large stocks of spare parts, so delays after every failed component; and most crews don’t spend enough time on the loco to become expert about how to get the best performance).

So the Turbomotive ended up being rebuilt as a conventional Pacific despite often-good performance.

The two main issues with the Pacifics in their original form was that the oil bath leaked, and the "air smoothed" casing was found to have dead pockets of air, which filled with smoke and obstructed view of the road ahead. The oil bath needed inspection, as this involved removing covers, this work was not always carried out, which meant faults could go undetected, or worse, leaving the cover off, so the oil became contaminated by dirt and grit.

Bulleid originally wanted a eight coupled engine, but foundered on the rock of the civil engineer, Ellson, so was forced to admit defeat and settle for a Pacific.

When introduced, the locomotives became a symbol of modernisation, but began to fall from grace following the results of the 1948 locomotive exchanges, being heavily penalised for coal and water consumption. More problems when one of the Merchant Navy class was tested at Rugby. Results were inconsistent, sometimes theoretically impossible. Oil from the bath leaked onto the rollers, necessitating frequent cleaning. The steam reverser was inclined to creep, not enough to affect daily use, but hindered accurate testing. It was clamped in position, but the locomotive had to be stationary before adjustment was made. So the conclusion was reached that the locomotives were unreliable, hence the rebuilding process.

Leader was doomed from the start. The tide had turned against the steam engine, and Bulleid's dream of a modern steam locomotive was not to be. By the time work was underway, he had resigned from British Railways, and without him, the outcome was inevitable. The prototype Leader made several test runs, about half ending in failure. The locomotive had the virtues - and vices - of the Pacifics, only more so. One problem was the fireman having to work in an enclosed space, not to be able to see where the train was, which meant his position was unsafe. The second member of the class was almost complete, when the order came to abandon the project, with the third locomotive, little more than a frame on wheels, all three were scrapped

Think the above is a good account. A couple of clarifications:

The chain drive to these Pacifics' valve gear was a compromise and not quite as Bulleid wanted it; I think part of the problem was wartime construction not having priority for obtaining the specified grades of high-quality steel. So parts of the gear stretched in use and the valve timing was affected.

Problems with air flow over the casing did appear, but changes to the chimney area and adding deflector plates were soon implemented and much reduced the visibility problems.

Leader too was a design badly compromised. Bulleid wanted oil-firing, which would have improved conditions for the fireman, made the dry-sided firebox easier to get right, and could have helped with the off-centre weight distribution. But a change in Government policy (when it was realised post-war austerity Britain could not afford oil imports) meant the railways were ordered to revert to 100% coal firing.

If the sudden nationalisation had not happened post-1945, Bulleid would have stayed in charge at the Southern for much longer; and there would have been fewer policy changes and constraints during the Leaders' design and construction. We can’t be sure if he could have made a real success of the Leaders but it is pretty certain that with him pushing progress ahead and enthusing his staff, their development would have gone further and produced better results.

As it is, people have argued that the almost completed second Leader prototype should have performed notably better, as manufacturing errors made with the first one had already been corrected; it was ready to begin testing when the whole project was cancelled by BR.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

A dedicated brand for Brighton expresses, didn’t seem to survive after the Electostars were introduced. I wonder why?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The idea is that they can be purchased in advance and used whenever.

Do the people that do this as a matter of course outnumber the people fined because they're tourists who didn't understand the validation nonsense? Prepared to be surprised, but I suspect not.

 

[The exile]

Do the people that do this as a matter of course outnumber the people fined because they're tourists who didn't understand the validation nonsense? Prepared to be surprised, but I suspect not.

Nowadays (with various digital means of storing tickets) in tourist hotspots possibly not - but historically viewed across all the areas that use/d them very definitely. When living/ working in the Ruhr area 25 years ago my cheapest option was a monthly off-peak season ticket with a set of 4-journey tickets in the wallet for the rare occasions I had to travel in the morning peak. I was by no means the only one!

 

[teuchterathear]

The RoadRailer train that ran down the ECML in the 1960s.

Featured road trailers with retractable rail wheels that were lowered before they were coupled together.

A few of the trailers ended up in the yard at the Antiference factory in Lichfield.Presumably used as storage.

 

[Rescars]

I have raised this one before, but the use of sundials to tell the time unsurprisingly never caught on. Gatehouse-of-Fleet station when first built was equipped with a sundial rather than a clock - an optimistic choice of timepiece given the frequent cloud and rain in the Southern Uplands of Scotland.
Understandably the Board of Trade would have none of it and insisted on a clock being installed before allowing the station to open for passenger traffic.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I have raised this one before, but the use of sundials to tell the time unsurprisingly never caught on. Gatehouse-of-Fleet station when first built was equipped with a sundial rather than a clock - an optimistic choice of timepiece given the frequent cloud and rain in the Southern Uplands of Scotland.

There was an even earlier sundial at Manchester (Liverpool Road station), located on a pillar high up above the first class entrance, which quite probably saw even more cloud and rain over the years than the one you mention in Southern Scotland. Would have been installed before the introduction of standardised railway time became widespread. Believe this 1833 sundial is now on display in the adjoining Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester.

 

[yorksrob]

A dedicated brand for Brighton expresses, didn’t seem to survive after the Electostars were introduced. I wonder why?

Not as good as the 8DIG-4CIG experience presumably.