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Trivia: Ideas and concepts that didn't work out

61653 HTAFC

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I’ve been in the one in Colombia - Medellin to be precise. One of the few cities where cable cars are legitimate parts of the transport network.
Medellin also has the novel concept of using escalators as a form of public transport due to that city's topology.
I don't remember Virgin calling First Class 'Club Class'. Very surprised that they did*, given 'Club' is more associated with their rivals BA.

Virgin Atlantic call their Business Class 'Upper Class'.

*Not saying it didn't happen, just seems off.
A few operators tried to rebrand First Class in the early days of privatisation. Northern Spirit's Transpennine Express branded 158s had first class sections dubbed "Transpennine Premier". These were still 2+2 seats but with thicker cushions and lamps on each table.
 
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stuu

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Medellin also has the novel concept of using escalators as a form of public transport due to that city's topology.
Lots of them. Hong Kong has lots, but also plenty in Europe. Bilbao has quite a few, as does Naples
 

Sad Sprinter

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I don't remember Virgin calling First Class 'Club Class'. Very surprised that they did*, given 'Club' is more associated with their rivals BA.

Virgin Atlantic call their Business Class 'Upper Class'.

*Not saying it didn't happen, just seems off.

It was on Voyagers when they were first introduced. I remember seeing them on the Brighton trains going through South London
 

61653 HTAFC

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Lots of them. Hong Kong has lots, but also plenty in Europe. Bilbao has quite a few, as does Naples
Not particularly novel then! Medellin's escalators are a relatively new thing, and there were lots of YouTube documentaries about it when it (and the cable car/gondola systems) opened... Just goes to show I shouldn't believe everything I learn on the internet! :lol: :oops:
 

Helvellyn

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I don't remember Virgin calling First Class 'Club Class'. Very surprised that they did*, given 'Club' is more associated with their rivals BA.

Virgin Atlantic call their Business Class 'Upper Class'.

*Not saying it didn't happen, just seems off.
Gatwick Express did use the Club Class branding in place of First Class on the 488/2 units. With many airlines in the 1990s still offering First Class on longhaul flights alongside Business Class and Economy it was probably a branding change to stop it seeming too premium but also cause a mental link with what was then Gatwick's largest carrier - one British Airways. With Victoria still having a BA check-in it was probably a savvy move.
 

MadMac

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Football "specials" where one carriage of the train was a disco - presumably to occupy fans rather than having them tear the train up! Only ever saw that run once, Bolton to Bournemouth! If anyone can remember, how many other trips did it make?
The League Liner. I think there was a cinema in addition to the disco car. We did actually touch on it HERE. Another good article on it HERE.
 

mister-sparky

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Not particularly novel then! Medellin's escalators are a relatively new thing, and there were lots of YouTube documentaries about it when it (and the cable car/gondola systems) opened... Just goes to show I shouldn't believe everything I learn on the internet! :lol: :oops:
Barcelona has them too
 

Scotrail84

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I wonder if it would be more viable today, with the tram to handle onward journeys from Leith.
The weather on the forth estuary would see it cancelled a lot of the time to be honest. Particularly in the winter months.
 

Meerkat

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Not particularly novel then! Medellin's escalators are a relatively new thing, and there were lots of YouTube documentaries about it when it (and the cable car/gondola systems) opened... Just goes to show I shouldn't believe everything I learn on the internet! :lol: :oops:
I was quite surprised when I saw the outdoor escalator in Gibraltar. I just can't see how it isnt a maintenance/cleaning nightmare.
 

Krokodil

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There's a town in Norway where there is a moving footrest (for want of a better turn) designed to propel cyclists up a steep hill.
 

Gloster

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There's a town in Norway where there is a moving footrest (for want of a better turn) designed to propel cyclists up a steep hill.

Trondheim’s Sykkelheisen Trampe: a ram starts the cyclist off and then a cable-hauled footrest takes him the rest of the way. It is 426’ long and moves at 6 km/h.

(This isn’t really on the topic of the thread as it works, unless you feel that it negates the purpose of healthy exercise.)
 

The exile

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They work quite well when a very frequent service is needed over short distances, so a small vehicle will do the job, and as mentioned the various technologies are all compatible with tight curves and steep gradients. When scaled up to large vehicles a steel wheel train probably becomes more economical, as rubber tyres use more energy and need more maintenance. The French have various rubber-tyre metros but few other countries have adopted them except where they were highly influenced by France.
Presumably the Parisian rubber tyred metro lines were considered successful (if expensive) in that as far as I’m aware there’s never been any move to convert them back.
 

geoffk

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There are several in Paris too, and a couple in other places I don't immediately recall (China?). My question is: now there is practical experience, whether anyone is considering building a new network anywhere else.
From correspondence on Facebook, it appears that Translohr is regarded as a tram under Italian law as it cannot operate without the guide rail.
 

Meerkat

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Presumably the Parisian rubber tyred metro lines were considered successful (if expensive) in that as far as I’m aware there’s never been any move to convert them back.
They were successful at nearly making me fall over - I had timed my reach for the grab rail by Tube standards so the rapid launch caught me off guard!
 

D6130

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They were successful at nearly making me fall over - I had timed my reach for the grab rail by Tube standards so the rapid launch caught me off guard!
Yes...and they give a rather rough ride compared to the conventional lines, especially going round curves.
 

Falcon1200

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I was quite surprised when I saw the outdoor escalator in Gibraltar. I just can't see how it isnt a maintenance/cleaning nightmare.

IIRC the escalators at Buchanan Street Subway station in Glasgow were originally outside but became so unreliable that they were roofed over. Different weather from Gibraltar, of course.
 

edwin_m

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They were successful at nearly making me fall over - I had timed my reach for the grab rail by Tube standards so the rapid launch caught me off guard!
They even have signs warning people to hold on. It seems to me that this demonstrates that the increased friction with the rubber tyres has no great benefit unless very steep gradients are needed.
 

AY1975

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It was on Voyagers when they were first introduced. I remember seeing them on the Brighton trains going through South London
As I recall Virgin started calling First Class "Club Class" on CrossCountry services in the last few years of HSTs and loco-hauled trains, probably about 1999/2000, but still called it First Class on its West Coast services presumably to differentiate between the levels of on-board service offered to First Class passengers on West Coast and CrossCountry trains.
 

hexagon789

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As I recall Virgin started calling First Class "Club Class" on CrossCountry services in the last few years of HSTs and loco-hauled trains, probably about 1999/2000, but still called it First Class on its West Coast services presumably to differentiate between the levels of on-board service offered to First Class passengers on West Coast and CrossCountry trains.
It was Club on Voyagers with a lesser catering offer and First on Pendolinos.
 

12C

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When Arriva were awarded the Northern franchise in 2016 they promised premium ‘Northern Connect’ services as part of the franchise bid. If I remember correctly they were supposed to use the new rolling stock, seat reservations were to be available and principle stations were to be upgraded with better facilities. The ‘Connect’ brand never materialised of course, and the new units ended up on normal services without any special branding.
 

Spartacus

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IIRC the escalators at Buchanan Street Subway station in Glasgow were originally outside but became so unreliable that they were roofed over. Different weather from Gibraltar, of course.

There were once several around Leeds, a few uncovered ones around the Merrion Centre, including as part of a long defunct underpass around Clay Pit Lane and moving walkway one up into the Merrion Centre. I can't ever remember any of those working. The one on Albion Street which was covered usually did work, until it's time was clearly up and it simply functioned as stairs for a while. There were a couple of inside moving walkways around there too.

Going back further there was a brief experiment with above ground level pavements at first storey level around King Street and Infirmary Street to at least Greek Street (the last bit in proper use as such being lost when Greek Street was redeveloped about 8 years ago) but you can still see some isolated remaining walkway on King Street and some that's not terraces above the but stops on Infirmary Street. Most had steps but at least some were escalators.
 

341o2

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Brian Fawcett chronicled some things that didn't work out on the Central Railway of Peru. The worst has to be the "cars of death," milk tanks equipped with a pilot (cowcatcher) and an acetylene lamp running by gravity down the line. Time and time again, these cars collided with fallen rocks and other obstructions on the line resulting in fatalities. Everyone was relieved when the service was abandoned.

The Central had two Beyer Garrats, popular with the accountants but not with most others. They were maintenance intensive, and unable to run the full length of the line. Henry Mieggs had the right idea - keep it simple. What can a Rogers Mogul haul and design the railway around that.

The next largest design on the Central. was a batch of locomotives with the Mountain wheel arrangement. They were too long for the mountain grades and prone to slipping. The locomotives were somewhat improved by conversion to a 4-8-0. The most successful class of steam loco is (because one member has been retained in working order), the Andes 2-8-0

US rolling stock and structures was preferred because it was more rugged and able to cope with poor standards of maintenance. One locomotive superintendent "Anglified" the locomotive fleet, and the cost of these useless conversions led to his dismissal.
 

AY1975

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Caledonian sleeper budget friendly pods
And couchette style sleeping cars with four berths per compartment and only basic bedding provided (i.e. a pillow and blanket, and maybe a sheet) so passengers were expected to sleep in their daytime clothes. I believe that the LMS four-wheel Third Class sleeping cars were like this, but apart from that the concept never caught on in Britain unlike in mainland Europe where they remain in operation on many night trains to this day as a budget alternative to proper sleeping cars. Couchette cars in mainland Europe can have four-berth or six-berth compartments thanks to the more generous continental loading gauge.

IMO the couchette option should have been offered on night trains in Britain, even if British loading gauge would only allow four-berth compartments.
 

Sun Chariot

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And couchette style sleeping cars with four berths per compartment and only basic bedding provided (i.e. a pillow and blanket, and maybe a sheet) so passengers were expected to sleep in their daytime clothes. I believe that the LMS four-wheel Third Class sleeping cars were like this, but apart from that the concept never caught on in Britain.
Certainly the LMS and the LNER had "convertible" third class compartment coaches, until Nationalisation. Daytime use as normal seating - which converted into four sleeping beds, by pulling down upper berth on each side of the compartment.

I agree re: loading gauge limitations. I have used a couchette style arrangement, travelling Moscow to St Petersburg; also when travelling across Kerala, south India.
The Russian compartment was one bed per side (converted from daytime seating). The Indian compartment was three per side - and a lot more spartan!
 

Indigo Soup

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The Russian compartment was one bed per side (converted from daytime seating). The Indian compartment was three per side - and a lot more spartan!
In the cheapest Indian sleeping cars, not only is it three per side, but there's another two-tier bed on the opposite side of the aisle. Russian third-class sleeping cars also have this arrangement, but only two tiers on the 'compartment' side. A loading gauge in excess of twelve feet wide (and enormously tall, with low platforms to boot) allows all sorts of things!
 

Helvellyn

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IMO the couchette option should have been offered on night trains in Britain, even if British loading gauge would only allow four-berth cocompartments.
Some would argue that it was - in the form of a steam heated compartment in Mark 1 stock on overnight services long gone (albeit two 'berth' only).
 

AY1975

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Some would argue that it was - in the form of a steam heated compartment in Mark 1 stock on overnight services long gone (albeit two 'berth' only).
And without bedding or the ability to lock your compartment door or turn the lights completely off unlike in a proper couchette (except that I believe that some punters travelling overnight on the cushions would wait until the ticket inspector had been round, then take the light bulbs out of the ceiling lights, make sure they put them somewhere where they wouldn't get broken, such as on the luggage rack (or I expect sometimes they would carelessly leave them somewhere where they would get broken), and then assuming that they hadn't got broken, they would hopefully remember to put them back in before getting off the next morning).

Another type of seated overnight service that ran for a time in the 1980s but was fairly short-lived was the Nightrider between London and Scotland, formed of conventional Open First coaches, which has already been discussed in a number of threads such as this one: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/east-coast-nightrider.249001/

In entry #60 at the bottom of page 2 of this thread I mentioned on-train TVs on the GWR Night Riviera Sleeper, on c2c and on the Cross-City line. The "Nightriders" (or at least some of them) had a video lounge car where you could watch a film, and I believe that a similar concept was trialled for a time in about the mid-1980s in at least one of the Driving Brake Open Seconds (DBSOs) on the ScotRail Class 47 push-pull sets on the Glasgow Queen Street-Edinburgh service. I would guess that it showed newsreels rather than full length films in view of the fairly short journey time between the two cities, though.

I believe that the "Flying Scotsman" had a cinema car for a time in the late 1920s and early 1930s, too.

Then there were the newsreel cinemas at London Victoria and Waterloo from about I think the 1930s until the 1970s.
 

AY1975

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Another thing that I don't think has been mentioned is "open" stations, i.e. stations without ticket barriers, where passengers (and everyone else for that matter, such as railway enthusiasts and people meeting passengers or seeing them off) could enter and leave the station freely.

Under BR in the 1980s and early 90s, permanently staffed ticket barriers were gradually phased out in favour of on-train ticket checks, so by the time of privatisation the newly franchised train operators inherited an almost completely "open" system, but since that time the powers-that-be have decided that on-train checks alone are not entirely foolproof and that barriers are needed to prevent fare evasion after all. The question of whether this is really necessary, and whether the open station system could have been made to work, has probably already been discussed to death in numerous other threads on here.

Most of mainland Europe changed to open stations in the 1960s and 70s, and in many countries (e.g. Belgium, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, the Czech Republic) they remain the norm to this day. A few countries such as France, Italy and the Netherlands have reverted to barriered stations to some extent in recent years, though. Netherlands Railways has gated most of its major stations, and many smaller stations in the major conurbations, as part of its OV-Chipkaart smartcard/contactless ticketing system.
 

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