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Trivia: Ideas and concepts that didn't work out

Jim the Jim

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And on-train TVs on the Cross-City line in about the mid-2000s under Central Trains, on c2c at around the same time, and on the Great Western Sleeper in (I think) the early 2010s.

I never saw them in operation, but I believe that the Great Western Sleeper TVs offered (or were supposed to offer) a variety of channels just like a normal TV at home or in a hotel bedroom but they often didn't work, whilst those on the Cross-City line and c2c showed newsreels - I expect some commuters who didn't have time to watch or listen to the news before setting out from their homes would have welcomed it whilst others probably found it intrusive.
The newsreels on the Cross-city ones were somewhat shorter than the journeys from the end of the line to the core, and only updated daily. So by the end of a return trip you could have heard the same bit four times or more. There was also a bias toward more "tabloidy" news.
 
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Rescars

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My feeling about the Lartigue system is that, as first conceived, a cheap lightweight system with animals as the motive power, it worked admirably, especially in the deserts of North Africa. The problems all came when Lartigue start to mechanise it, introduce heavier rolling stock and track which led in turn to some very expensive, clumsy fudges.
Not so unlike the Ewing System, as used by the Patiala State monorail. Much more straightforward than the Lartigue, though clearly subject to the very modern challenge of potholes in the roadway. Another interesting concept which didn't catch on.
 

Shimbleshanks

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Not so unlike the Ewing System, as used by the Patiala State monorail. Much more straightforward than the Lartigue, though clearly subject to the very modern challenge of potholes in the roadway. Another interesting concept which didn't catch on.
Yes, I always wonder what the inventor of that was thinking about. If you needed to strengthen the road to carry to monorail loco anyway, why not just strengthen the road and use traction engines? It also strikes me that the amount of friction from the road surface under the wheels of the loco must have been tremendous, so you're not gaining the advantages of steel wheels on steel rails.
The only advantage it seemed to offer was a guidance system.
 

Gloster

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Tavern Cars. While the concept, has found favour in some places on the continent it's never really taken off here, despite a few different attempts over the years.

It has been suggested that the reason for the small windows was to dissuade customers from lingering over a drink for too long. The SR’s Catering Department had found that takings in Buffet Cars with a normal window layout had fallen for this reason. We’ve all done it…
 

Tetragon213

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Bulleid Double Deck suburban units.

The Leader class

The Irish Turf locomotive.

Possibly his unrebuilt SR Pacifics
I'm not entirely familiar with the whole story around the Pacifics; weren't the BoBs/WCs generally quite successful, though?

As for Leader, was that the one which spat flames back at the driver/fireman?
 

Rescars

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Yes, I always wonder what the inventor of that was thinking about. If you needed to strengthen the road to carry to monorail loco anyway, why not just strengthen the road and use traction engines? It also strikes me that the amount of friction from the road surface under the wheels of the loco must have been tremendous, so you're not gaining the advantages of steel wheels on steel rails.
The only advantage it seemed to offer was a guidance system.
The concept seems to be quite an old one, dating from the 1860s. Apparently only about 5% of the load was carried by the outriggers, in which case most of the benefit of reduced rail friction would have been preserved. Presumably maintainng a strip of roadway in good order was reasonably straightforward. This system could also cope with going round real corners, rather than needing more conventional gentler curves. Ewing would seem to agree with your ideas about its potential as a guidance system - I have found mention of a patent to adapt the front axle of a traction engine to engage with the monorail for this purpose. It is rather wonderful that some of the equipment has survived into preservation.
 

edwin_m

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Yes, I always wonder what the inventor of that was thinking about. If you needed to strengthen the road to carry to monorail loco anyway, why not just strengthen the road and use traction engines? It also strikes me that the amount of friction from the road surface under the wheels of the loco must have been tremendous, so you're not gaining the advantages of steel wheels on steel rails.
The only advantage it seemed to offer was a guidance system.
Similar could be said about the Bombardier GLT/TVR system that ran for a while in Caen and Nancy, essentially a trolleybus guided by a single slotted rail in the road surface. This had most of the disadvantages of a tram (a lot of track structure needed, albeit only one rail) and of a bus (increased energy consumption due to rolling resistance, and limited vehicle size). The Translohr is similar but still operating although I'm not sure if anyone is proposing any new ones.
 

Shimbleshanks

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The concept seems to be quite an old one, dating from the 1860s. Apparently only about 5% of the load was carried by the outriggers, in which case most of the benefit of reduced rail friction would have been preserved. Presumably maintainng a strip of roadway in good order was reasonably straightforward. This system could also cope with going round real corners, rather than needing more conventional gentler curves. Ewing would seem to agree with your ideas about its potential as a guidance system - I have found mention of a patent to adapt the front axle of a traction engine to engage with the monorail for this purpose. It is rather wonderful that some of the equipment has survived into preservation.
Except you would need solid foundations for the guidance rail, so you might as well build solid foundations for the whole road and use conventional traction engines?
 

AndrewE

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There are several in Paris too, and a couple in other places I don't immediately recall (China?). My question is: now there is practical experience, whether anyone is considering building a new network anywhere else.
I doubt it. The general Wikipedia page mentions one in Colombia(!) and says Tianjin is abandoned.
It also says that the system was chosen for Clermont Ferrand after lobbying by Michelin which have (had?) big factories there. No coincidence that a road-lobby-associated firm was linked to the adoption of technology which handicaps public transport and avoids the use of steel wheels on steel rails!

Back on the main thread topic (and triggered by the discussion above) I would propose the idea of unfettered personal mobility in towns delivered by private motor vehicles! Sorry if this has been mentioned already...
 
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Indigo Soup

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I'm not entirely familiar with the whole story around the Pacifics; weren't the BoBs/WCs generally quite successful, though?
AFAIK the locomotives were fairly successful, but relied on Bulleid's chain-driven valve gear to realise the full benefits of light weight and high efficiency. In practice, the valve gear didn't perform as expected, meaning that they were less reliable and less efficient than if conventional valve gear had been fitted.

The rebuilds did exactly that, replacing the Bulleid valve gear with Walschaerts valve gear. This worked better, but added several tonnes to the weight of the locomotives, meaning they couldn't run on all the routes they'd been intended for.

Someone more familiar with the Southern Railway can probably correct all the bits I've got wrong!
 

edwin_m

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I would propose the idea of unfettered personal mobility in towns delivered by private motor vehicles!
Has anyone mentioned Personal Rapid Transit yet? That's another one that combines the worst of two worlds: public transport (expensive fixed infrastructure, not truly door to door, having to cope with the debris left by other people if not with the people themselves) with private (low capacity, inefficient use of assets).
 

Rescars

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Except you would need solid foundations for the guidance rail, so you might as well build solid foundations for the whole road and use conventional traction engines?
If you want to try traction engines with guidance, we should also include the Stronach-Dutton Roadrail System. Seems to have been tried out in a number of countries using steam and or petrol and was on display at the Brish Empire Exhibition in 1924. Another intriguing concept which didn't catch on. Rather more of both rails and road than Ewing required. There is a film of it in operation which suggests that it was not the smoothest of rides!
 

thenorthern

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Looking at branding one thing we don't see anymore is rail companies using the name of their parent company in their operating name. When privatisation happened Virgin Rail Group, First Group, Connex and Arriva all added their company name to the branding i.e. Arriva Trains Northern. While Stagecoach and GB Railways would have logos that were similar throughout their operations. National Express (at first), Go-ahead group, and John Laing on the other hand didn't seem to have any similarities in branding across their franchises.

Now though other than the "by Arriva" I don't think there is much mention of parent companies being mentioned in logos, company names or typefaces.

I suppose it's for the best as many times people don't keep up with changing franchises. Also back in 2012 when the Virgin Trains contract saga happened I remember many non-railway people being worried that the Pendolinos were going to be withdrawn and replaced by HSTs and Pacers as that is what First Great Western used at the time. Silly I know but many people didn't understand that the parent isn't really an important factor in choosing rolling stock for a new franchise.
 

Mr. SW

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This?
Uniline Ground level monorail system. It's in Dutch but scroll down for a translation
 

AY1975

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Tavern Cars.
And griddle cars: the Class 124 Trans-Pennine DMUs and the Class 309 Clacton EMUs had them at least for their first few years of service in the 1960s and early 70s. Not sure how widespread the concept was apart from that, although some trains on the Great Central Railway have them.

And First Great Western's "Travelling Chef" concept.
 

norbitonflyer

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And griddle cars: the Class 124 Trans-Pennine DMUs and the Class 309 Clacton EMUs had them at least for their first few years of service in the 1960s and early 70s. Not sure how widespread the concept was apart from that, although some trains on the Great Central Railway have them.
Three of the Southern's 4RES units were converted to 4GRI in the 1960s
 

stuu

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This?
Uniline Ground level monorail system. It's in Dutch but scroll down for a translation
I remember a drawing of that I had in some sort of railway book when I was a kid, possibly on a page about the future of trains with a shinkansen and BART or something.. The concept still exists as the Translohr guided bus/tram thing which exists in a single digit number of cities
 

D6130

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+1

And griddle cars: the Class 124 Trans-Pennine DMUs and the Class 309 Clacton EMUs had them at least for their first few years of service in the 1960s and early 70s. Not sure how widespread the concept was apart from that, although some trains on the Great Central Railway have them.

And First Great Western's "Travelling Chef" concept.
The 'Griddle Car' concept may not have worked out well on shorter journeys in the South East or across the Pennies....but they were very popular in Scotland on the four hour plus journeys between Edinburgh/Glasgow and Inverness.
 
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I doubt it. The general Wikipedia page mentions one in Colombia(!) and says Tianjin is abandoned.
It also says that the system was chosen for Clermont Ferrand after lobbying by Michelin which have (had?) big factories there. No coincidence that a road-lobby-associated firm was linked to the adoption of technology which handicaps public transport and avoids the use of steel wheels on steel rails!

Back on the main thread topic (and triggered by the discussion above) I would propose the idea of unfettered personal mobility in towns delivered by private motor vehicles! Sorry if this has been mentioned already...
I’ve been in the one in Colombia - Medellin to be precise. One of the few cities where cable cars are legitimate parts of the transport network.
 

matchmaker

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I'm genuinely interested in your experience of this model. It’s a model I wanted but I'd seen a couple of online posts (other fora) which were not complimentary of it.

Not for this thread - but if you are happy to share your insight on RUK forum thread Whats your latest acquisition? I will be very appreciative. Thanks in advance.
I'll put a post in there.
 

Scotrail84

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Not railway related so please delete if not allowed but the proposed hovercraft service from Burntisland in fife to Leith in Edinburgh. Supposed to be an alternative way to commute from Fife to Edinburgh. A few trial runs were made but it came to nothing in the end.
 

edwin_m

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Not railway related so please delete if not allowed but the proposed hovercraft service from Burntisland in fife to Leith in Edinburgh. Supposed to be an alternative way to commute from Fife to Edinburgh. A few trial runs were made but it came to nothing in the end.
I wonder if it would be more viable today, with the tram to handle onward journeys from Leith.
 

Howardh

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Football "specials" where one carriage of the train was a disco - presumably to occupy fans rather than having them tear the train up! Only ever saw that run once, Bolton to Bournemouth! If anyone can remember, how many other trips did it make?
 

Sad Sprinter

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The concept of a post-Pullman era Brighton express didn’t last long. Started as the Capital Coast Express before becoming the much loved by 8 year old me “Brighton Express” with the dedicated 319 fleet, a dedicated special fleet wasn’t replicated with the introduction of the Electrostars. So the whole concept would have lasted about a decade. Fast Brighton services plodded on for another decade or so before being infused with the Gatwick Express brand and operation.
 

Sun Chariot

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The concept of a post-Pullman era Brighton express didn’t last long. Started as the Capital Coast Express before becoming the much loved by 8 year old me “Brighton Expresswith the dedicated 319 fleet, a dedicated special fleet wasn’t replicated with the introduction of the Electrostars. So the whole concept would have lasted about a decade. Fast Brighton services plodded on for another decade or so before being infused with the Gatwick Express brand and operation.
My memory might be playing tricks but - were those the sets with "lounge style" bucket seating in the motor second, under the pan roof end? I recall sitting in such seats on a train; but I can't remember which one.
 
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Bald Rick

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My memory might be playing tricks but - were those the sets with "lounge style" bucket seating in the motor second, under the pan roof end? I recall sitting in such seats on a train; but I can't remember which one.

Yes it was. Those 319s subsequently migrated to Thameslink, and it was a sight to see at peak time.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes it was. Those 319s subsequently migrated to Thameslink, and it was a sight to see at peak time.

We later got them on the WCML, sadly by then the snug had I think been replaced with normal seating, but the widely spaced 2+2 Chapmans and proper 2+1 First Class were both much appreciated on Tring and Bletchley slows.

While the catering and snug didn't work out, I'd not say a low density layout failed on the Brighton Express, as the original Southern Electrostars continued with the concept. Indeed weren't the ones with wide spaced airline seats rather than almost all tables intended for that?
 

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