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Trivia: Ideas and concepts that didn't work out

Sad Sprinter

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We later got them on the WCML, sadly by then the snug had I think been replaced with normal seating, but the widely spaced 2+2 Chapmans and proper 2+1 First Class were both much appreciated on Tring and Bletchley slows.

While the catering and snug didn't work out, I'd not say a low density layout failed on the Brighton Express, as the original Southern Electrostars continued with the concept. Indeed weren't the ones with wide spaced airline seats rather than almost all tables intended for that?

Is that so? That might make sense because I do remember using Electrostars heading to Brighton on Clapham to Croydon hops and remember there being a largely 2+3 formations on those trains.

When I started school in the mid-2000s, 319s were allocated to the Horsham to Victoria slow services and I remember seeing the old lounge on my second day at secondary school. Sadly I think I only remember went on a dedicated Brighton express once, in 1999 when my parents took me to Brighton on a day trip when I was 4 years old. I don’t remember the train but I remember remembering that it was a “Brighton Express” a long time ago. I remember only 3 things from that trip; the slide at the end of Brighton pier, eating a stick of rock and the Thameslink seat maquette on the train back home.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Is that so? That might make sense because I do remember using Electrostars heading to Brighton on Clapham to Croydon hops and remember there being a largely 2+3 formations on those trains.

There are a few different layouts which tend to be mixed up a lot these days but originally I think they did intend different uses.
 

yorksrob

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Surely the Brighton express had been around for donkeys years - pre-electrification probably.
 

Sad Sprinter

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Surely the Brighton express had been around for donkeys years - pre-electrification probably.

Not these days.

I've come to think that, if we have to have Victoria to Brighton trains locked the behind the Gatwick Express, perhaps its time to retire that brand and replace it with something like, "Southern Express" as an evolution to the Southern Belle. At least then it would have two meanings being the literal express to the south and an AirPort Express. Would be nice to see it painted in some kind of Pullman inspired livery. Perhaps Southern green and gold or something.
 

JonathanH

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Is that so? That might make sense because I do remember using Electrostars heading to Brighton on Clapham to Croydon hops and remember there being a largely 2+3 formations on those trains.
Brighton Express was the first set of Southern Services to London that saw Electrostars, with the 377/3s (initially 375/3s) operating in six car formations, strengthened to nine car at the weekend. Two six car formations could combine and make a twelve at peak times. Don't forget that until the 5-car units arrived and the DOO dispute, that Southern could only run up to 9-cars DOO on the Brighton line[1], so the 377/3s were particularly useful for that.

That continued for a while. When 377120-377139 arrived, they also first worked Brighton services which may have given the impression of 2+3 seating.

[1]https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/southern-doo-dispute.33154/#post-443350
 

yorksrob

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Not these days.

I've come to think that, if we have to have Victoria to Brighton trains locked the behind the Gatwick Express, perhaps its time to retire that brand and replace it with something like, "Southern Express" as an evolution to the Southern Belle. At least then it would have two meanings being the literal express to the south and an AirPort Express. Would be nice to see it painted in some kind of Pullman inspired livery. Perhaps Southern green and gold or something.

Oh yes, and I agree, the "Gatwick Express" concept has clearly had its day. Call it what it is - the London Brighton express and fit curtains (like on the 8DIG's - the real premium units).
 

NER1621

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The division of railway infrastructure and train operation into separate companies which then cross-charged each other.
 

Bald Rick

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The division of railway infrastructure and train operation into separate companies which then cross-charged each other.

railway companies cross charging each other for the use of infrastructure was a concept introduced with the concept of railway companies themselves!
 

Taunton

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Just about every alternative technology to steel wheel on steel rail doesn't make it. Monorails (various sorts), hovertrains, maglev, rubber wheels, etc. George Stephenson really should have taken out a patent.

This doesn't stop non-professional commentators, right up to government ministers, coming out with them from time to time, I suspect just because that makes it more likely for their name to be picked up by the media.
 

Rescars

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With the exception, curiously, of airport shuttles. Not quite sure why, but these are almost always effectively automatic guided buses.
I believe Zurich uses cable haulage. A sort of horizontal funicular. Rather London and Blackwall, but without the slip coaches. :D
 

Bletchleyite

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I believe Zurich uses cable haulage. A sort of horizontal funicular. Rather London and Blackwall, but without the slip coaches. :D

Yes, true, cable hauled guided buses, mostly :)

Thinking on it is probably because they tend to feature steep gradients and curves, and so are more like funiculars than railways (and are often built by companies specialising in the former, not the latter).
 

Rescars

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railway companies cross charging each other for the use of infrastructure was a concept introduced with the concept of railway companies themselves!
Am I correct that this practice continued in BR days? AIUI, Travellers Fare was charged to divide carriage rakes and shunt restaurant cars in and out of bay platforms etc when this was requested for victualling and similar catering, rather than railway operating, reasons.
 

Bletchleyite

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Am I correct that this practice continued in BR days? AIUI, Travellers Fare was charged to divide carriage rakes and shunt restaurant cars in and out of bay platforms etc when this was requested for victualling and similar catering, rather than railway operating, reasons.

Most large companies have internal markets, it's by no means a railway thing alone.

Sometimes it does result in silly outcomes, e.g. people going to PC World to buy laptops as it's cheaper than the internal supply chain.
 

341o2

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AFAIK the locomotives were fairly successful, but relied on Bulleid's chain-driven valve gear to realise the full benefits of light weight and high efficiency. In practice, the valve gear didn't perform as expected, meaning that they were less reliable and less efficient than if conventional valve gear had been fitted.

The rebuilds did exactly that, replacing the Bulleid valve gear with Walschaerts valve gear. This worked better, but added several tonnes to the weight of the locomotives, meaning they couldn't run on all the routes they'd been intended for.

Someone more familiar with the Southern Railway can probably correct all the bits I've got wrong!
The two main issues with the Pacifics in their original form was that the oil bath leaked, and the "air smoothed" casing was found to have dead pockets of air, which filled with smoke and obstructed view of the road ahead. The oil bath needed inspection, as this involved removing covers, this work was not always carried out, which meant faults could go undetected, or worse, leaving the cover off, so the oil became contaminated by dirt and grit.

Bulleid originally wanted a eight coupled engine, but foundered on the rock of the civil engineer, Ellson, so was forced to admit defeat and settle for a Pacific.

When introduced, the locomotives became a symbol of modernisation, but began to fall from grace following the results of the 1948 locomotive exchanges, being heavily penalised for coal and water consumption. More problems when one of the Merchant Navy class was tested at Rugby. Results were inconsistent, sometimes theoretically impossible. Oil from the bath leaked onto the rollers, necessitating frequent cleaning. The steam reverser was inclined to creep, not enough to affect daily use, but hindered accurate testing. It was clamped in position, but the locomotive had to be stationary before adjustment was made. So the conclusion was reached that the locomotives were unreliable, hence the rebuilding process.

Leader was doomed from the start. The tide had turned against the steam engine, and Bulleid's dream of a modern steam locomotive was not to be. By the time work was underway, he had resigned from British Railways, and without him, the outcome was inevitable. The prototype Leader made several test runs, about half ending in failure. The locomotive had the virtues - and vices - of the Pacifics, only more so. One problem was the fireman having to work in an enclosed space, not to be able to see where the train was, which meant his position was unsafe. The second member of the class was almost complete, when the order came to abandon the project, with the third locomotive, little more than a frame on wheels, all three were scrapped
 

Rescars

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Yes, true, cable hauled guided buses, mostly :)

Thinking on it is probably because they tend to feature steep gradients and curves, and so are more like funiculars than railways (and are often built by companies specialising in the former, not the latter).
The Swiss are rather good at dealing with steep gradients!
 

Rescars

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Leader was doomed from the start. The tide had turned against the steam engine, and Bulleid's dream of a modern steam locomotive was not to be. By the time work was underway, he had resigned from British Railways, and without him, the outcome was inevitable. The prototype Leader made several test runs, about half ending in failure. The locomotive had the virtues - and vices - of the Pacifics, only more so. One problem was the fireman having to work in an enclosed space, not to be able to see where the train was, which meant his position was unsafe. The second member of the class was almost complete, when the order came to abandon the project, with the third locomotive, little more than a frame on wheels, all three were scrapped
Many have trodden this path before, but it's interesting to speculate what direction the Leader project might have taken if Bulleid's tenure on the Southern had continued and not been overshadowed by nationalisation in 1948.
 

edwin_m

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With the exception, curiously, of airport shuttles. Not quite sure why, but these are almost always effectively automatic guided buses.
They work quite well when a very frequent service is needed over short distances, so a small vehicle will do the job, and as mentioned the various technologies are all compatible with tight curves and steep gradients. When scaled up to large vehicles a steel wheel train probably becomes more economical, as rubber tyres use more energy and need more maintenance. The French have various rubber-tyre metros but few other countries have adopted them except where they were highly influenced by France.
 

Bletchleyite

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They work quite well when a very frequent service is needed over short distances, so a small vehicle will do the job, and as mentioned the various technologies are all compatible with tight curves and steep gradients. When scaled up to large vehicles a steel wheel train probably becomes more economical, as rubber tyres use more energy and need more maintenance. The French have various rubber-tyre metros but few other countries have adopted them except where they were highly influenced by France.

While there is French influence the Lausanne Metro has them due to the gradients. Rack would have been an option, though.

I'd agree elsewhere - the Metro Michelin (I may have just invented that) is an entirely politically motivated and rather silly idea.
 

Taunton

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The French rubber tyre metro was a combination of industrial dominance by the Michelin tyre company, and a desire to increase performance over the very basic Paris Metro Sprague stock. The new trains required much more power than the old ones, and it was soon realised that if you did the same with conventional running gear, you got the same benefits without the multiple downsides.

Michelin built quite a lot of autorails in the 1930s for the French national system, which ran on conventional rails but also had rubber tyres. Sounds unlikely but they worked, after a fashion. There's one in the French railway museum in Mulhouse. Another was demonstrated to the LMS in the 1930s. It wasn't bought. Here's an article about it. 10 wheels, but only 5 tons weight.


You can add another feature of these to things that don't work out, which is very lightweight rail vehicles, which periodically continue to turn up from independent inventors. Their key thing is invariably a lack of collision resistance, especially with main line rolling stock.
 

Rescars

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Another combination of pneumatic tyres and flanged wheels, and a worthy entry on our list, should be the LMS Karrier Ro-Railer, intended to run along the SMJR line to Stratford-upon-Avon and then continue by road to the railway-owned Welcombe Hotel. Starting with high hopes, this experiment failed due to the collapse of the front axle after only a few weeks in traffic. Having the leading flanged wheels controlled by a steering wheel must have been something of a novelty!
 

Gloster

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Another combination of pneumatic tyres and flanged wheels, and a worthy entry on our list, should be the LMS Karrier Ro-Railer, intended to run along the SMJR line to Stratford-upon-Avon and then continue by road to the railway-owned Welcombe Hotel. Starting with high hopes, this experiment failed due to the collapse of the front axle after only a few weeks in traffic. Having the leading flanged wheels controlled by a steering wheel must have been something of a novelty!

Wasn‘t the steering locked in the ‘straight ahead’ position when in rail mode?
 

Rescars

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Wasn‘t the steering locked in the ‘straight ahead’ position when in rail mode?
I presume so. I'd guess the weight of the combined wheels would have made it a beast to steer (surely no servo assistance in 1932) as well as putting a lot of strain on the front axle. On the plus side, a happy additional benefit of this arrangement would have been to remove any need for access to a turntable. I wonder how it was all aligned up to rerail itself. Some sort of fancy ramp perhaps?
 

Gloster

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I presume so. I'd guess the weight of the combined wheels would have made it a beast to steer (surely no servo assistance in 1932) as well as putting a lot of strain on the front axle. On the plus side, a happy additional benefit of this arrangement would have been to remove any need for access to a turntable. I wonder how it was all aligned up to rerail itself. Some sort of fancy ramp perhaps?

I think that one of the claimed advantages was that all you need was a bit of track where the road was level with the rail top. Presumably you could use a level-crossing if it was wide enough to allow you to turn the bus ninety degrees. You manoeuvred the bus until it was in line with the rails, moved it a bit forward to get the various holes aligned and then did the changeover. There is a fair bit of information on it on the .warwickshirerailways.com site under the Stratford Midland Junction Railway.
 

341o2

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Metrovick Co Bo class 28. The Crossley 2 stroke engines were unreliable, and the entire class was returned to the manufacturers for work on the engines and to cure problems with windows falling out. Consideration was given to replacing the engines, but instead, the entire class was scrapped apart from D5705
 

Spartacus

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Metrovick Co Bo class 28. The Crossley 2 stroke engines were unreliable, and the entire class was returned to the manufacturers for work on the engines and to cure problems with windows falling out. Consideration was given to replacing the engines, but instead, the entire class was scrapped apart from D5705

In fairness the use of 2 stroke engines in locos is immensely popular, indeed Ireland replaced their Crossley engined locos with 2 stroke EMD engines, an engine which was developed to become the type fitted to Class 66s.
 

Taunton

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I suspect the GM 567/645 series 2-stroke engines were produced in the largest quantity of any diesel engine type. What Sulzer and English Electric turned out were penny numbers in comparison. GM diesel engines, absolutely universal in buses across North America for several generations, as well as many trucks, were 2-stroke as well. They also went into ferries and tugboats. The concept has finally been given up because, despite being "unburstable", a 2-stroke can't meet current emission standards.
 

stuu

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Yes, true, cable hauled guided buses, mostly :)

Thinking on it is probably because they tend to feature steep gradients and curves, and so are more like funiculars than railways (and are often built by companies specialising in the former, not the latter).
They also use (usually) standard lorry tyres and brakes, which when you only have a few vehicles makes the servicing easier
 

BeijingDave

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There's a lot of stuff especially with Virgin's brash branding which was never emulated by other TOCs. Who knew that mid-20th century nostalgia would still take preference over groovy interior lights, remanding first class as "club class" and renaming the stuffy old Buffet Car "The Shop".

Then there's the monument to the failed era of neoliberalism that is Ebbsfleet.

I remember at Underground stations in London in the mid-2000s they'd have these public computer terminals where you can browse the internet and check your emails. The mouse was this solid metal ball within the keyboard casing that you had to roll around, which was always fun as a child. They weren't there for more than a few years.

I don't remember Virgin calling First Class 'Club Class'. Very surprised that they did*, given 'Club' is more associated with their rivals BA.

Virgin Atlantic call their Business Class 'Upper Class'.

*Not saying it didn't happen, just seems off.
 

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