Trivia:Major design faults

[Taunton]

- BR ordering too many different types of early diesel locos - especially NBL-built ones

Not just diesels, but ordering a range of broadly similar electrical equipment from different manufacturers, some of which worked much better than others. Can nobody at BR HQ in the 1950s have noticed that English Electric kit generally worked better than average? To order the first 100 25Kv locos, with identical bodies, from five different manufacturers would appear just silly (and guess what, the North British ones were the most unreliable of the lot). The major failures/explosions in 25Kv/6.25Kv EMUs at start of their service around 1960, which included passenger fatalities, was down to the equipment of just one of the multiple manufacturers who had not envisaged, unlike their competitors, that the 25Kv supply might be inadvertently connected when the switches were set for 6.25Kv. Even the official report tries to gloss this over and says the important thing for BR was, somehow, to maintain multiple supplier bases for the sake of allowing the manufacturers to develop export markets, which sounds like the inquiry was somehow leaned on by the manufacturers trade association.

Stock with seats that don't line up with windows on scenic routes

The "Mk-3 derivative" stock (150, 313, 507 etc), where three bays were provided with two windows, so NO seats align with the window, has to be the ultimate nonsense. Notably Chris Green, when subsequently in charge at Network South-East and the Networkers were being designed, and such was also proposed, sent the designers back to do it again with some scathing comments on their lack of understanding.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would 465s have been the last example in BR era of a class being built by multiple manufacturers with 56s being the example before them?

 

[D365]

Would 465s have been the last example in BR era of a class being built by multiple manufacturers with 56s being the example before them?

Perhaps, but are you just stating various facts now.

 

[fredk]

Not likely to happen, at least not on 'mainline' stock. Noise, pressure pulses from passing trains, sealing against rain/snow, control of temperature - all reasons you're unlikely to see anything other than air conditioned stock.

Passengers should have an option to open some windows even on air conditioned stock. A window design similar to that retrofitted on the new routemaster bus would be ideal, large enough to allow a gentle breeze and small enough to not intefere with the air conditioning. If one was installed in each set of doors it could work quite well.

 

[Paule23]

There is a pub but you need a bloody mortgage to go in

What an unusual entry criteria.

 

[The Growl]

The Crossrail class 345 interior, and exterior. Just horrific. Also 1970s BR management. I weren't born then but everything I've read tells me thing weren't going right until they split things up.

 

[Taunton]

Generally, an overall design fault is embracing technologies which are subsequently either impossible or ludicrously expensive to change the designs of once in service. Signalling is an example, it was said that previous generations of signalling were expensive to maintain, but that is nothing compared to the expense nowadays to make changes to the arrangements.

Pointwork is another, what was previously put in easily by a team of gangers now needs a wholesale project, and even a 4-day holiday weekend to install a single crossover (Docklands Light Railway, I'm looking at you). What then happens is the modern "more efficient" S&C is so expensive to both install and maintain that many crossovers etc are removed or left out, greatly inconveniencing subsequent service disruptions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The "Mk-3 derivative" stock (150, 313, 507 etc), where three bays were provided with two windows, so NO seats align with the window, has to be the ultimate nonsense. Notably Chris Green, when subsequently in charge at Network South-East and the Networkers were being designed, and such was also proposed, sent the designers back to do it again with some scathing comments on their lack of understanding.

This is indeed a stupid layout, but can be "fixed" to a reasonable extent by changing the seating layout.

 

[fredk]

The Crossrail class 345 interior, and exterior. Just horrific. Also 1970s BR management. I weren't born then but everything I've read tells me thing weren't going right until they split things up.

The 3D mockup interior doesn't look as bad as the real result. In the 3D mockups the seat covers have a pleasant looking purple pattern, but the real result has red seats which look like piles of mince meat

I'm also surprised they used black grab rails - I always thought bright colours were used so people could safely and quickly tell exactly where the rail is, especially important for those who are disabled.

 

[najaB]

I'm also surprised they used black grab rails - I always thought bright colours were used so people could safely and quickly tell exactly where the rail is, especially important for those who are disabled.

They don't need to be bright, just contrasting. So black on a white background would be okay (though, admittedly, not ideal).

 

[fredk]

They don't need to be bright, just contrasting. So black on a white background would be okay (though, admittedly, not ideal).

Makes sense, looking at it now it does contrast against the rest of the interior. The more I look at photos of it the more I like it, the atmosphere does seem quite calming and warm.

 

[The Growl]

The 3D mockup interior doesn't look as bad as the real result. In the 3D mockups the seat covers have a pleasant looking purple pattern, but the real result has red seats which look like piles of mince meat

I'm also surprised they used black grab rails - I always thought bright colours were used so people could safely and quickly tell exactly where the rail is, especially important for those who are disabled.

Exactly! I would've just said. Eww, that external, but at least the interal looks acceptable. But that raw meat moquette made everything terrble. Uncloured poles, ugly floors, ugly panels. Yuck yuck yuck. Can we PLEASE stick to the coloured poles TFL?

 

[Clip]

Generally, an overall design fault is embracing technologies which are subsequently either impossible or ludicrously expensive to change the designs of once in service. Signalling is an example, it was said that previous generations of signalling were expensive to maintain, but that is nothing compared to the expense nowadays to make changes to the arrangements.

Pointwork is another, what was previously put in easily by a team of gangers now needs a wholesale project, and even a 4-day holiday weekend to install a single crossover (Docklands Light Railway, I'm looking at you). What then happens is the modern "more efficient" S&C is so expensive to both install and maintain that many crossovers etc are removed or left out, greatly inconveniencing subsequent service disruptions.

I think you are being a little harsh on the DLR there as they dont actually have many engineering locos or wagons to deal with changing something like the crossover and you need to remember that would include removing the 3rd rail and putting it back too when the crossover was installed.

 

[strawbrick]

Any one else noticed the absence of high level handrails over the "wheel-chair" bay on the latest LUL tube stock

 

[ge-gn]

The plastic covers on the mk1 AHB "penguin" style packs. Woeful..

 

[AndrewE]

Also 1970s BR management. I weren't born then but everything I've read tells me thing weren't going right until they split things up.

Is this a wind-up? No-one else has commented so I will take the bait... You should watch the recent TV documentary on what BR achieved or read some history books. You will learn that before you were out of nappies there was a dedicated body of people keeping the service going (and improving it) while fighting a rearguard action against government hostility. Not forgetting the front-line troops of course.

Where do you think the HSTs came from? Or the Pacers, much disliked but much better than having no trains at all. Who invented the idea of tilting trains to speed them up on the current infrastructure and within the existing loading gauge? Ever heard of Inter-City? (copied all over Europe, & the only profitable railway in the world I believe.) Ever seen the double Arrow logo? It's still used on some European street-maps to show an inter-city station.

I shan't waste my time trying to explain to you the difference between being looked after by one railway when things are going wrong and dealing with a dozen different companies with their own agendas and bottom lines. I've been denied access to a train at Euston because Eurostar was late...

I could go on (and on,) and will probably edit later to add some more important innovations, like computerised signalling and solid-state interlocking that worked, or all the condition-monitoring that was done on diesel power units and electric locos to keep them in service...

 

[The Growl]

Is this a wind-up? No-one else has commented so I will take the bait... You should watch the recent TV documentary on what BR achieved or read some history books. You will learn that before you were out of nappies there was a dedicated body of people keeping the service going (and improving it) while fighting a rearguard action against government hostility. Not forgetting the front-line troops of course.

Where do you think the HSTs came from? Or the Pacers, much disliked but much better than having no trains at all. Who invented the idea of tilting trains to speed them up on the current infrastructure and within the existing loading gauge? Ever heard of Inter-City? (copied all over Europe, & the only profitable railway in the world I believe.) Ever seen the double Arrow logo? It's still used on some European street-maps to show an inter-city station.

I shan't waste my time trying to explain to you the difference between being looked after by one railway when things are going wrong and dealing with a dozen different companies with their own agendas and bottom lines. I've been denied access to a train at Euston because Eurostar was late...

I could go on (and on,) and will probably edit later to add some more important innovations, like computerised signalling and solid-state interlocking that worked, or all the condition-monitoring that was done on diesel power units and electric locos to keep them in service...

To be fair, you only had to say I was wrong. Ruuuddee. But seriously, according to the NSE story, trains were old, dirty and late (Great book BTW). But I never said anything about the front line staff, and never said the BR management was rubbish, just badly designed. And lastly, some of my favourite trains were created before I was born. I have a great appreciation of the BR fleet designers. The intercity livery on the 91 is a particular marvel. And look at my signature for goodness sake!

 

[Marklund]

The plastic covers on the mk1 AHB "penguin" style packs. Woeful..

Yes!
We lost our last one a while ago. I do not miss trying to put those back on again.

The original mark 1 clamp locks were prone to lock body cracking, and replaced with the mark 2.
Still much better than the awful HPSS, which are a classic flawed design. :roll:
And to think, there's a mark 2 of those awful things coming out too.

 

[yorksrob]

To be fair, you only had to say I was wrong. Ruuuddee. But seriously, according to the NSE story, trains were old, dirty and late (Great book BTW). But I never said anything about the front line staff, and never said the BR management was rubbish, just badly designed. And lastly, some of my favourite trains were created before I was born. I have a great appreciation of the BR fleet designers. The intercity livery on the 91 is a particular marvel. And look at my signature for goodness sake!

It might be fair to say that the 1962 transport act was badly designed. In particular the requirement for BR to balance it's budget on a year by year basis with no provision of funding to support socially necessary lines, or any funding to "invest to save".

It was this requirement which led to a lot of the bad decisions and mindsets around route closures and rationalisation that affected BR management during the 60's and 70's. By the 1980's, this mindset was probably beginning to work it's way out of the system.

 

[The Growl]

It might be fair to say that the 1962 transport act was badly designed. In particular the requirement for BR to balance it's budget on a year by year basis with no provision of funding to support socially necessary lines, or any funding to "invest to save".

It was this requirement which led to a lot of the bad decisions and mindsets around route closures and rationalisation that affected BR management during the 60's and 70's. By the 1980's, this mindset was probably beginning to work it's way out of the system.

And funilly enough, by the 90s NSE would achieve zero subsidy. And if BR's other sectors had followed the examples of NSE, I think it would've been fair to say that they would've had an extremly low subsidy. Shame about the economy and we all know what happened after that...

 

[CosherB]

Perhaps, but are you just stating various facts now.

No change there then!

 

[yorksrob]

And funilly enough, by the 90s NSE would achieve zero subsidy. And if BR's other sectors had followed the examples of NSE, I think it would've been fair to say that they would've had an extremly low subsidy. Shame about the economy and we all know what happened after that...

Agree to an extent. I think sectorisation did wonders for the regional railway sector, although I have doubts whether it would have achieved zero subsidy. Fortunately BR didn't have a statutory duty to break even on a year by year basis at this time, which probably would have been as counter-productive in terms of shaping railway management as it was in the 60's.

 

[sk688]

A fault of the 350s are the eternally slow doors , which when you arrive at a station , take forever to first be unlocked , and then they open at a glacial speed . A small fault of an otherwise good train

 

[greaterwest]

A fault of the 350s are the eternally slow doors , which when you arrive at a station , take forever to first be unlocked , and then they open at a glacial speed . A small fault of an otherwise good train

A trait shared by their third rail brothers too, from my experience having used 350s, 450s and 444s. I seem to remember even the 185 have this issue/feature, although the "initial unlocking" is done by the guard.

 

[47271]

I can't say that I've ever been that bothered by door speeds on Desiros.

Waiting for a door to open on a 442 on the other hand...

 

[greaterwest]

I can't say that I've ever been that bothered by door speeds on Desiros.

Waiting for a door to open on a 442 on the other hand...

Indeed, it doesn't bother me, although there are some 444s where the doors get stuck when opening (requiring a firm push)

 

[fowler9]

A fault of the 350s are the eternally slow doors , which when you arrive at a station , take forever to first be unlocked , and then they open at a glacial speed . A small fault of an otherwise good train

And all of the bogs being locked out of use after being in use after about an hour.

 

[tsr]

I can't say that I've ever been that bothered by door speeds on Desiros.

Waiting for a door to open on a 442 on the other hand...

At some Southern stations, special instructions were issued about closing doors 35 rather than 30 seconds before departure, as it was screwing up punctuality if it was done any later. I believe these are still in place for the few trains still formed of that stock.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Indeed, it doesn't bother me, although there are some 444s where the doors get stuck when opening (requiring a firm push)

Have you either let the guard know or tweeted SWTs? They might not know of a given door being an issue. Don't know if they can do anything whilst a train is in service as they'd probably have to open up some panels to get access to the mechanism

 

[QueensCurve]

Just catching up here, the DfT may have specced it but believe me, they didn't write it.....

Who did?