Trivia: Stations in England with Welsh names

[fandroid]

It's probably been done before but there are stations in England that TfW announces with Welsh equivalents. I've waited at Newport several times and been fascinated by those announcements of destinations I'd never heard of before. The only one I think I can remember is Henffordd for Hereford

 

[hexagon789]

Manceinion - Manchester
Cryw - Crewe
Caer - Chester
Amwythig - Shrewsbury

That's the only ones I can think of that I've seen in TfW literature. At least the top three are vaguely similar to the English names, particularly in the case of Cryw for Crewe if you understand how Welsh is pronounced. Amwhythig requires more thought, meaning Fortified (place). Which is thought to be a potential meaning of the Old England root of Shrewsbury itself.

 

[samrammstein]

Parcffordd De Lerpwl for Liverpool South Parkway. Don't get me started.

 

[daodao]

At least the top three are vaguely similar to the English names, particularly in the case of Cryw for Crewe

Manchester is of Romano-Brittonic origin, and Crewe is one of many "Welsh" place names dotted across the Western half of England and South-West Scotland.

 

[hexagon789]

Parcffordd De Lerpwl for Liverpool South Parkway. Don't get me started.

Do TfW even serve there?

Manchester is of Romano-Brittonic origin, and Crewe is one of many "Welsh" place names dotted across the Western half of England and South-West Scotland.

Interesting, I mistakenly assumed Cryw was simply a phonetic rendering using Welsh orthography.

 

[fandroid]

With a bit of scratching around I found some more:
Llundain Paddington
Bryste Temple Meads
Parcffordd Bryste

and finally
Caerlowy - Gloucester
Llanllieni - Leominster
Llwydlo - Ludlow

 

[sefyllian]

All the ones served by TfW are on their route map – image below but easier to see by comparing the English (PDF) and Welsh (PDF) versions.

Many places along the Marches have Welsh names as they would have been Welsh at one point:

Yr Heledd-wen (Nantwich)
Yr Eglwys Wen (Whitchurch)
Amwythig (Shrewsbury)
Llwydlo (Ludlow)
Llanllieni (Leominster)
Henffordd (Hereford)

There are also many places, especially in the north west of England, that have old Welsh or ancient British origins, eg. Penrith meaning “red hill” (pen rhudd in modern Welsh).

 

[fandroid]

All the ones served by TfW are on their route map – image below but easier to see by comparing the English (PDF) and Welsh (PDF) versions.

Many places along the Marches have Welsh names as they would have been Welsh at one point:

Yr Heledd-wen (Nantwich)
Yr Eglwys Wen (Whitchurch)
Amwythig (Shrewsbury)
Llwydlo (Ludlow)
Llanllieni (Leominster)
Henffordd (Hereford)

There are also many places, especially in the north west of England, that have old Welsh or ancient British origins, eg. Penrith meaning “red hill” (pen rhudd in modern Welsh).

View attachment 127700

I'm impressed that Didsbury has a Welsh name (Dwyrain).

Ooops! That fooled me. It's actually East Didsbury, but someone was obviously trying hard to extend Welshness to its limits

 

[Kite159]

Do TfW even serve there?

2 hourly Chester to Liverpool via Runcorn service for Scouse Parkway

 

[sefyllian]

I'm impressed that Didsbury has a Welsh name (Dwyrain)

It doesn’t I’m afraid – Dwyrain just means East!

 

[Rheilfordd]

A handy guide if needing to continue your journey following arrival in Llundain.

 

[SargeNpton]

The "half translations are amusing"

Lerpwl Lime St
Manceinion Oxford Rd
Birmingham Rhyngwladol
Dwyrtain Didsbury

I'm surprised that "Lime St" and "Rd" weren't amended to be the Welsh equivalents. And, for consistency, that Birmingham New Street and Runcorn East didn't get the same treatment as Birmingham International and East Didsbury.

 

[sefyllian]

I'm surprised that "Lime St" and "Rd" weren't amended to be the Welsh equivalents. And, for consistency, that Birmingham New Street and Runcorn East didn't get the same treatment as Birmingham International and East Didsbury.

Lime Street, Oxford Road, New Street etc are all pre-existing street names, and so wouldn’t have Welsh equivalents. (The Welsh station names aren’t translated, as such, they simply use the Welsh names for things that already exist, and use the English otherwise).

Mixed language names happen in English too of course, such as Llandudno Junction (which is formed in the same way as Birmingham Rhyngwladol, essentially).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've seen in rail documents:
Manceinion Heol Rhydychen for Manchester Oxford Road (Rhydychen being the (quite literal) Welsh name for Oxford)
Manceinion Fictoria for Manchester Victoria

- but these were in ATW days on leaflets for engineering work.
The regular timetables/PIS use Manceinion and then the English local name.

There are of course places in Wales that nobody ever uses the Welsh for - Queensferry and Saltney don't appear to have Welsh versions.
Also plenty of Welsh names in Shropshire, particularly around Oswestry (eg Llanyblodwel), and plenty of English names in Powys.

One English name of Welsh (or Brythonic) origin is Eccles - equivalent to Eglwys (church) in modern Welsh.
And all the English river Avons (Welsh/Brythonic afon - river).
Malvern in Worcestershire is from Welsh Moel Bryn (bare hill).

 

[hexagon789]

2 hourly Chester to Liverpool via Runcorn service for Scouse Parkway

Interesting, knew TfW served Manchester and Birmingham of course but not Liverpool. Many thanks

 

[urbophile]

Do TfW even serve there?

Yes.

 

[daodao]

One English name of Welsh (or Brythonic) origin is Eccles - equivalent to Eglwys (church) in modern Welsh.

The Scottish village of Ecclefechan (in English Small Church, in modern Welsh Eglwys Fychan), which once had a station on the Caledonian main line, is also Brittonic in origin, as are many place names in the former Kingdom of Strathclyde.

 

[fandroid]

It doesn’t I’m afraid – Dwyrain just means East!

I spotted that soon after posting but I thought I should fess up to my ignorance

 

[Djgr]

Birkenhead=Penbedw from Tfw timetable

 

[Sheridan]

The "half translations are amusing"

Lerpwl Lime St
Manceinion Oxford Rd
Birmingham Rhyngwladol
Dwyrtain Didsbury

I'm surprised that "Lime St" and "Rd" weren't amended to be the Welsh equivalents. And, for consistency, that Birmingham New Street and Runcorn East didn't get the same treatment as Birmingham International and East Didsbury.

If anything it would make more sense to have ‘east’ translated in Runcorn East, as that’s (as far as I know), purely a description of where the station is, and distinguishes it from Runcorn. East Didsbury is the place name however, so it’s odd to translate it.

 

[busestrains]

On the Welsh language automated announcements at Cardiff Central and Newport they always say Caersallog instead of Salisbury so that is another one to add to the list.

 

[SJL2020]

Bryn

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Llanllieni - Leominster

Love how literal this one appears, at least to my amateur interpretation!

 

[185]

Discussing this and someone nearby just shouted Conwy Park. I've gone

 

[Parallel]

A few from the top of my head:

Caerwysg Dewi Sant - Exeter St Davids
Caerwysg Sant Thomas - Exeter St Thomas
Caerloyw - Gloucester
Caer Efrog - York
Caerfaddon - Bath Spa
Caerlŷr - Leicester
Caeredin- Edinburgh
Harbwr Portsmouth - Portsmouth Harbour

These are all announced by their Welsh name at TfW stations.

 

[nwales58]

If listening to announcements you need to understand mutations too. TfW is inconsistent (as are native speakers) but if you say i Bwllheli and i Fanceinion then it should be i Firmingham too.

 

[urbophile]

Discussing this and someone nearby just shouted Conwy Park. I've gone

Except it's not Conwy Park. It uses the old anglicised form Conway.

If listening to announcements you need to understand mutations too. TfW is inconsistent (as are native speakers) but if you say i Bwllheli and i Fanceinion then it should be i Firmingham too.

I thought the rule about mutation didn't apply to non-Welsh names?

 

[duncanp]

Why is there a Welsh version of Birmingham International, but not a Welsh version of Birmingham New Street?

There must be Welsh translations of "new" and "street".

And why isn't there a Welsh name for Birmingham, and yet there is for London, Liverpool and Manchester?

I wonder how many people refer to English cities using their Welsh names, even amongst those who speak Welsh as their first language.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Why is there a Welsh version of Birmingham International, but not a Welsh version of Birmingham New Street?

Because "International" is an adjective while"New Street" is a name. The translation would be "Stryd Newydd" but it doen't apply.

And why isn't there a Welsh name for Birmingham, and yet there is for London, Liverpool and Manchester?

Because Birmingham as a major centre is comparatively recent. Most places in England with Welsh names date back to a period when much of England and southern Scotland were Brythonic and/or Latin speaking.

I wonder how many people refer to English cities using their Welsh names, even amongst those who speak Welsh as their first language.

It depends. No one would ever refer to London rather than Llundain, for instance. Caersallog a lot less so! Places like Caeredin and Manceinion fall somewhere in between.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

On the Welsh language automated announcements at Cardiff Central and Newport they always say Caersallog instead of Salisbury so that is another one to add to the list.

Eryl definitely now says Salisbury. Does say Harbwr Portsmouth though.