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TRIVIA: Under-rated buses

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TheGrandWazoo

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We've not had too many trivia threads recently so thought I'd add one and, despite the title, it doesn't relate to the power output of engines! There are always strong views on vehicles that are (rightly) regarded as classic bus designs - the Wright Eclipse, the Bristol RE, the Olympian, and even the Dart and the Solo etc.

However, which are the vehicles that don't have the love of the masses but actually, they are (or were) pretty decent vehicles when you think about it.

My choice, and it got me thinking about it, is the Wright Cadet bodied SB120 beloved of many Arriva OpCos. What's yours - discuss?
 
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A0wen

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We've not had too many trivia threads recently so thought I'd add one and, despite the title, it doesn't relate to the power output of engines! There are always strong views on vehicles that are (rightly) regarded as classic bus designs - the Wright Eclipse, the Bristol RE, the Olympian, and even the Dart and the Solo etc.

However, which are the vehicles that don't have the love of the masses but actually, they are (or were) pretty decent vehicles when you think about it.

My choice, and it got me thinking about it, is the Wright Cadet bodied SB120 beloved of many Arriva OpCos. What's yours - discuss?

Despite its propensity to corrode, I'd go for the Lynx.

From a passenger perspective they were fairly quick, not especially noisy and from my recollection rode well. And they were much nicer to travel on than the Nationals which they usually replaced.

As with many things, it hit the market at the wrong time - a mix of NBC privatisation, the minibus revolution and fleets stuffed to the gunnels with mid life Leyland Nationals meant it never sold as well as it should have done.
 

spuddie

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I'll second you on the Lynx, they were great, such a step forward on from the National, they were quick, drove and rode well and gave a good ride.
 

Tom Gallacher

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We've not had too many trivia threads recently so thought I'd add one and, despite the title, it doesn't relate to the power output of engines! There are always strong views on vehicles that are (rightly) regarded as classic bus designs - the Wright Eclipse, the Bristol RE, the Olympian, and even the Dart and the Solo etc.

However, which are the vehicles that don't have the love of the masses but actually, they are (or were) pretty decent vehicles when you think about it.

My choice, and it got me thinking about it, is the Wright Cadet bodied SB120 beloved of many Arriva OpCos. What's yours - discuss?
If Arriva hadn't been the importers for DAF chassis I doubt if they would have bought anywhere near as many of them. They were being offered with disc brakes at a time when one of the biggest bugbears with the Dart was problems with the operating system on the drum brakes. Once ADL introduced the Enviro 200/300 it was game over for the SB120. If they had been any good operators would have changed over to them long before that. How many operators bought the Volvo badged one?

Just my opinion however.
 

Swanny200

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I may not be well liked for saying this, but I thought the Alero was under-rated, was a better option (it seemed) than a breadvan, low floor and looked like nothing else on the road, but I gather the engines let them down. the Lynx too, especially the mk2 without the slanted driver windscreen, always made me wonder if it would have had a place in the market had Volvo not got rid of it.
 

jammy36

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An interesting question. The Lynx is a good should – although whether it is underrated or just didn’t sell as well as it might have done due to “right product, wrong time” syndrome.

My nomination isn’t a single vehicle – and also isn’t technically a bus (talk about stretching the boundaries!) – but did form the backbone of independent rural bus services across the country for much of the second half of the twentieth century. That is the light-weight coach.

Take any independent rural bus service from the 1950s onwards and your invariably travel on such a vehicle. In the 1950/60s Bedfords were ubiquitous (through WTB, OWB/OB, SB, VAS), with bodywork by a variety of manufacturers, but most-frequently by Duple (Vista, Vega, Super Vega, Bella Vista etc). Other lightweight coach manufacturers included Commer and Tilling-Stevens, and of course from 1957 Ford with their 570E Thames Trader. Despite their lightweight nature many of these vehicles would give long-service – some twenty plus years – and remained a common sight on school-day and market-day services well into the 1970s and early 1980s – the availability of “”grant” spec vehicles at 50% purchase cost killed off many older vehicles.

Despite operating in huge numbers such vehicles are often overlooked – and this is reflected in the comparatively small number (particularly for the Bedford SB and 507E Thames Trader) that survive in preservation (although the Bedford OB Duple Vista combo is reasonably well represented). More obscure lightweight coach chassis and small-scale bodybuilders are even rarer and some entirely extinct.

The same stands for the next generation of Bedford and Ford lightweights (be that Ford R192/R226/R1014/R1114 or Bedford VAM or Y-Series) – how many Duple Viceroy Express lightweight coaches survive in preservation?

So, my nomination for most overlooked and under-rated bus is the lightweight coach of the 1960s and 1970s. Once ubiquitous, and to be found the length and breadth of the country, but now almost vanished and vastly under-represented in preservation (certainly compared with the London-centric AEC Routemaster).
 

TheGrandWazoo

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If Arriva hadn't been the importers for DAF chassis I doubt if they would have bought anywhere near as many of them. They were being offered with disc brakes at a time when one of the biggest bugbears with the Dart was problems with the operating system on the drum brakes. Once ADL introduced the Enviro 200/300 it was game over for the SB120. If they had been any good operators would have changed over to them long before that. How many operators bought the Volvo badged one?

Just my opinion however.
Obviously, the Arriva/DAF connection was pivotal to it. Obviously, it was entering a market where the Dart SLF and, to a lesser extent, the B6LE and Optare Excel were already established. Euro IV might also have been a reason for its demise IIRC.

I travelled on an Arriva Wales example last summer and was pleasantly surprised by it.
I may not be well liked for saying this, but I thought the Alero was under-rated, was a better option (it seemed) than a breadvan, low floor and looked like nothing else on the road, but I gather the engines let them down. the Lynx too, especially the mk2 without the slanted driver windscreen, always made me wonder if it would have had a place in the market had Volvo not got rid of it.
Lynx - yes.

Alero - half decent idea but phenomenally unreliable.
 

RustySpoons

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The Wrightbus bodied B6BLE never seemed to sell well, but was well built (as were most Wrightbus products of the time) as well as pretty much bombproof mechanicals it was a very comfortable way to travel.

I may not be well liked for saying this, but I thought the Alero was under-rated, was a better option (it seemed) than a breadvan, low floor and looked like nothing else on the road, but I gather the engines let them down. the Lynx too, especially the mk2 without the slanted driver windscreen, always made me wonder if it would have had a place in the market had Volvo not got rid of it.
I agree. Aside from the reliability issues I think it was just ahead of its time and would be a much better option to the Mellor bodied Sprinters today... if the reliability issues could've been sorted, obviously!
 

Tom Gallacher

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I may not be well liked for saying this, but I thought the Alero was under-rated, was a better option (it seemed) than a breadvan, low floor and looked like nothing else on the road, but I gather the engines let them down. the Lynx too, especially the mk2 without the slanted driver windscreen, always made me wonder if it would have had a place in the market had Volvo not got rid of it.
The Alero had serious problems with the steering I seem to recall. Optare never seemed to have replacement parts for it either.
 

rcro

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I’ve always liked Dennis Lances, but I think our ones were better looked after than most.

The Scania N113/East Lancs Cityzen double deckers weren’t very common but seemed nice and sturdy, and the stock build at the end of their run at around 2000 must have lasted quite well. Seemed to be a lot still going fairly recently given how many there were to start with.
 

Busaholic

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I'll second you on the Lynx, they were great, such a step forward on from the National, they were quick, drove and rode well and gave a good ride.
They didn't look too bad, either, especially in comparison with a Leyland National!
 

matchmaker

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Going back a bit, the Royal Tiger Worldmaster was Leyland's best selling bus of all time. Indeed, it was one of the best selling buses of all time worldwide.
 

Swanny200

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I agree. Aside from the reliability issues I think it was just ahead of its time and would be a much better option to the Mellor bodied Sprinters today... if the reliability issues could've been sorted, obviously!
I wonder if that was down to the Iveco engine?, was it purely for cheapness and if they offered it with a different engine would it have been more of a success, even when they did the plus model, they replaced the 2.8 Iveco lump with the 3 litre Iveco lump.
 

hst43102

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Mercedes Citaro. Well known for being prone to catching fire and unreliable with many operators, but every Citaro I've been on has seemed to have a much better build quality and engine than the equivalents from Wright and ADL.
 

Citistar

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I'd like to speak in favour of the Iveco TurboCity decker. There was only ever one built and i managed to drive it for two operators. The ride on it was superb but quite floaty - it was like driving a very well powered cloud.

In terms of a missed opportunity, the Mercedes OC500LE chassis and engine offering is a superb bit of engineering which produced a very capable and reliable vehicle. The few right hand drive examples built for the UK all had MCV bodies which were a bit clattery inside. It would have been very interesting to see how much better it could have been with a better built Citaro or even Tempo style body on the top.
 

Busaholic

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I'd like to speak in favour of the Iveco TurboCity decker. There was only ever one built and i managed to drive it for two operators. The ride on it was superb but quite floaty - it was like driving a very well powered cloud.
Not at all sure that would fill me with confidence as a passenger!!
 

Bletchleyite

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I'd like to speak in favour of the Iveco TurboCity decker. There was only ever one built and i managed to drive it for two operators. The ride on it was superb but quite floaty - it was like driving a very well powered cloud.

In terms of a missed opportunity, the Mercedes OC500LE chassis and engine offering is a superb bit of engineering which produced a very capable and reliable vehicle. The few right hand drive examples built for the UK all had MCV bodies which were a bit clattery inside. It would have been very interesting to see how much better it could have been with a better built Citaro or even Tempo style body on the top.

I don't know if that is similar but as a passenger I think the Mercedes O405N (low floor), the ubiquitous 1990s German city bus, must be one of the best single deck city buses going. The Citaro is flashy but introduced some odd quirks like weird seat layouts. Extremely rare in the UK, though Finglands had at least one. Reliable, smooth and a sensible layout. Not a looker, but a brilliant workhorse.
 

Citistar

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Not at all sure that would fill me with confidence as a passenger!!
I don't know if it was a relative lack of experience at the time, but i remember it a remarkably pleasant thing to drive. I may have made it sound like the handling was vague and wafty, but that wasn't the case. I haven't driven many double deck vehicles with suspension that was as complementary to the ride.
 

busesrusuk

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I would put in a bid for the Leyland Royal Tiger (1980's) coach. I think it had real potential with a body that, with a few updates, wouldn't look out of place on the roads today. Sadly, poor build quality at Roe's was a factor in it's relatively brief production run but I think it could have done well if Leyland had made an effort to develop the concept...
 

Busaholic

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I would put in a bid for the Leyland Royal Tiger (1980's) coach. I think it had real potential with a body that, with a few updates, wouldn't look out of place on the roads today.
Never rode on one, but it was certainly a good-looking beast.
 

Jordan Adam

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The King Long XMQ6900J, i can't really comment from an operator perspective but certain as a passenger these are impressive machines they have the same 4 cylinder Cummins engine as a Enviro200 however it's mated to a 6 speed ZF Ecolife gearbox and has significantly better engine insulation, that combined with minimal rattles give it the feeling of a much larger vehicle. Sadly there only appears to be two in the UK, Bains Coaches Of Oldmeldrum have one (SV12 BVC) and despite it's rather shoddy outside appearance it's surprising just how quiet, fast and smooth it is. Probably the most refined buses of their size on the roads.

The Volvo B7RLE Wright Eclipse Commuter is arguably one of the most underrated in recent times. It addressed most of the accessibility issues with coaches while still having a high floor layout, 49 seats and some underfloor storage. Unlike the more recent Panther LE which has the same capacity, is three metres longer and has no underfloor storage. Sadly at the time bus operators didn't seem to quite understand the product however I imagine if a similar product came out now many operators would be snatching them up given the dislike towards the complex lift arrangements on most coaches.
 

Strathclyder

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Going back a fair bit here, the Foden-NC. If the transmission issues (often cited as the design's achilles' heel) could've been sorted out, it would've been a worthy competitor/spiritual successor to the Atlantean, Fleetline, VR, Metrobus, Dominator etc.

Staying within the 70s, the Metro-Scania/Scania-Metropolitan. Not great fuel consumption levels and severe corrosion issues were the main factors in bringing these two down, but were noted for their smooth riding qualities and excellent performance when actually in service.

Flashing forward to the 80s, the Leyland-DAB Lion (am sure @Devon Sunset will approve of this lol) is often and I think unfairly overlooked. Much like the Lynx, it hit the market at precisely the wrong time: the minibus revolution, privatisation, a well-established competitor in the form of the Volvo B10M Citybus - ofc, Volvo Bus would end up buying Leyland outright - Leyland ending engine production and a glut of second-hand deckers all meant it didn't really stand a chance. Which is a shame, as it could give the Citybus a real run for it's money in terms of performance, refinement etc; stories abound of the Eastern Scottish Lions reaching 80+mph on Edinburgh - Glasgow runs along the M8.

Lastly, and this may be something of a strikeout on my part, the Renault PR100 certainly had potential, given it's success in Continental Europe, but like the Lynx and Lion, it hit the market at a fairly bad time.

Despite its propensity to corrode, I'd go for the Lynx.

From a passenger perspective they were fairly quick, not especially noisy and from my recollection rode well. And they were much nicer to travel on than the Nationals which they usually replaced.

As with many things, it hit the market at the wrong time - a mix of NBC privatisation, the minibus revolution and fleets stuffed to the gunnels with mid life Leyland Nationals meant it never sold as well as it should have done.
Good shout here. A well-fettled Cummins L10-powered Lynx with a ZF box is something special indeed. Just a pity that the corrosion issues were never properly addressed.

My choice, and it got me thinking about it, is the Wright Cadet bodied SB120 beloved of many Arriva OpCos.
The SB120 always felt like a more refined Dart to me, particularly those with the Wright Cadet body. From a passenger perspective at least, the ones I managed to sample felt rather smooth and well screwed together with comparatively (with the Dart) few rattles. Though I have read/heard about them falling victim to electrical gremlins, which may be one of the reasons it didn't quite catch on to the extent as the Dart outwith Arriva and why the latter remained the dominant force in that particular segment of the market overall.

I don't know if that is similar but as a passenger I think the Mercedes O405N (low floor), the ubiquitous 1990s German city bus, must be one of the best single deck city buses going. The Citaro is flashy but introduced some odd quirks like weird seat layouts. Extremely rare in the UK, though Finglands had at least one. Reliable, smooth and a sensible layout. Not a looker, but a brilliant workhorse.
Finglands took two O405Ns (V428/429 DNB; numbered 1428/29 and new in September 1999). Both were latterly transferred to EYMS, but they ended up spending their last years at Whittle of Kidderminster.

I'd like to speak in favour of the Iveco TurboCity decker. There was only ever one built and i managed to drive it for two operators. The ride on it was superb but quite floaty - it was like driving a very well powered cloud.
That proves that looks aren't the be-all and end-all; I've long thought that beastie looked, from the front at least, like a cross between a Plaxton President and a CIE Bombardier KD (see the bus in my current profile pic). A real shame it didn't survive.
 
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Devon Sunset

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Flashing forward to the 80s, the Leyland-DAB Lion (am sure @Devon Sunset will approve of this lol) is often and I think unfairly overlooked. Much like the Lynx, it hit the market at precisely the wrong time: the minibus revolution, privatisation, a well-established competitor in the form of the Volvo B10M Citybus - ofc, Volvo Bus would end up buying Leyland outright - Leyland ending engine production and a glut of second-hand deckers meant it didn't really stand a chance. Which is a shame, as it could give the Citybus a real run for it's money in terms of performance, refinement etc; stories abound of the Eastern Scottish Lions reaching 80+mph on Edinburgh - Glasgow runs along the M8.

Good shout here. A well-fettled Cummins L10-powered Lynx with a ZF box is something special indeed. Just a pity that the corrosion issues were never properly addressed.
No arguments from me on the Lion, an almost perfect dual purpose decker. I suppose the only downside was the large entrance steps due to the mid engine bit then that wasn't as much of a problem back then. I only drove a Lynx once when we had a demonstrator for a week. I'm pretty sure it was a Cummins L10/ZF. I had it for 5 hours and remember it as being really nice to drive and the engine/gearbox combo worked well in it. I also had a soft spot for the Mercedes 0405 we had with Optare bodies. They were fast and great for out of town routes, although they could rattle a fair bit. I always remember the steering wheel was massive on them.
 

Strathclyder

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No arguments from me on the Lion, an almost perfect dual purpose decker. I suppose the only downside was the large entrance steps due to the mid engine bit then that wasn't as much of a problem back then. I only drove a Lynx once when we had a demonstrator for a week. I'm pretty sure it was a Cummins L10/ZF. I had it for 5 hours and remember it as being really nice to drive and the engine/gearbox combo worked well in it. I also had a soft spot for the Mercedes 0405 we had with Optare bodies. They were fast and great for out of town routes, although they could rattle a fair bit. I always remember the steering wheel was massive on them.
The Citybus had the exact same problem of the high entrance step for the exact same reasons, but it wasn't seen as big of a issue back then as it undoubtedly would now as you say. On the same tack, the Strathclyde AH Citybuses (specifically, AH7-101) had to have larger tyres fitted - full-size 295/80s in place of the standard low profile 275/70s they were delivered with - due to certain chassis components grounding on road surfaces.


Speaking of mid-engined deckers, the grandfather of both the Lion and Citybus, the BMMO D10 prototypes seem to be somewhat overlooked, which I think is something of a shame. Yes, it can't be denied that the design had some serious shortcomings* that would've been prohibitively expensive to rectify had it been put into production, but something that advanced and forward-looking entering service in 1960 commands at least a certain level of admiration and interest.

*: these shortcomings are detailed here, on the type's page on the excellent midlandred.net site.
 
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What about the Ailsa? I grew up in Leeds and Black Prince buses had loads of them, they could get a lot of speed up for late running buses or the x51 route that ran via the m621
 

Magdalia

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I also vote for the Leyland Lynx.

My main experience of these was on rail replacements: in my view the Lynx was very well suited for this, combining good access to get on and off with high speed on the open road.

My strongest memory is of Royston-Cambridge rail replacements with Lynxes, the small Millers fleet or buses from Hitchin and Luton. If the engineering work involved closing the level crossing at Foxton, then the rail replacements went via Duxford. On the M11 they were seriously fast!
 

Whisky Papa

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Good shout here. A well-fettled Cummins L10-powered Lynx with a ZF box is something special indeed. Just a pity that the corrosion issues were never properly addressed.
The same combination in a Leyland Olympian produced my favourite vehicle to drive, the batch that Yorkshire Rider bought with low-height NCME bodies for Todmorden, which were ideal for tightly-timed routes in hilly country.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The Citybus had the exact same problem of the high entrance step for the exact same reasons, but it wasn't seen as big of a issue back then as it undoubtedly would now as you say. On the same tack, the Strathclyde AH Citybuses (specifically, AH7-101) had to have larger tyres fitted - full-size 295/80s in place of the standard low profile 275/70s they were delivered with - due to certain chassis components grounding on road surfaces.

What about the Ailsa? I grew up in Leeds and Black Prince buses had loads of them, they could get a lot of speed up for late running buses or the x51 route that ran via the m621
I always thought the Ailsa WAS rated but perhaps more so in Scotland where they were, of course, much more common.

After the Ailsa, I did think the Citybus was a bit overlooked/under-rated. Badgerline had a batch of 12 in 1986, and I remember being impressed with the power they had when travelling on them as open toppers....22 years later!

I don't know if that is similar but as a passenger I think the Mercedes O405N (low floor), the ubiquitous 1990s German city bus, must be one of the best single deck city buses going. The Citaro is flashy but introduced some odd quirks like weird seat layouts. Extremely rare in the UK, though Finglands had at least one. Reliable, smooth and a sensible layout. Not a looker, but a brilliant workhorse.

Finglands took two O405Ns (V428/429 DNB; numbered 1428/29 and new in September 1999). Both were latterly transferred to EYMS, but they ended up spending their last years at Whittle of Kidderminster.
Didn't West Midlands Travel have a substantial batch of 0405s? I thought they were. Seemed to recall they were nice machines on trips to places like Oldbury

On the subject of Mercs, the related Optare Prisma was a fine machine. 25 were delivered to Tees and District's Redcar depot and were the bedrock of their allocation for years. Superbly reliable and durable. However, relatively rare, unfortunately.
 

Mikey C

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My choice, and it got me thinking about it, is the Wright Cadet bodied SB120 beloved of many Arriva OpCos. What's yours - discuss?
I quite liked the Wright Cadet also, a much nicer bus that the Streetlite.

Another type I rather liked was the East Lancs bodied B10M single deckers Grey Green operated on the 210 in London. The complete opposite in philosophy from the low floor Darts which replaced them, but once up the steps you had a lovely flat floor. Very smooth too


 
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Swanny200

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Aberdeen had some O405's with Prisma bodywork, I think they were the first to get them, seemed nice machines and obviously looked different to the Atlanteans and Olympians that were usually running around the city
 
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