TRIVIA - Unfulfilled Beeching cuts you would've made

[LOL The Irony]

You have a time machine to take you back to the 1960's, what are some unfulfilled Beeching cuts you would've made? Be it for practical or selfish reasons, say which cuts that were left on the cutting room floor you would go ahead with. For instance, Keeping Blackpool Central and closing North.

My (purely selfish) pick would be closing the route between Chester and Warrington.

 

[py_megapixel]

I think one option at one point was truncating the Hope Valley line and keeping Woodhead, rather than the other way round. I'd probably have done that.

 

[The Planner]

You have a time machine to take you back to the 1960's, what are some unfulfilled Beeching cuts you would've made? Be it for practical or selfish reason, say which cuts that were left on the cutting room floor you would go ahead with. For instance, Keeping Blackpool Central and closing North.

My (purely selfish) pick would be closing the route between Chester and Warrington.

Why?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Why?

Pure selfishness

 

[py_megapixel]

Pure selfishness

Does it benefit you in any way for that line to be closed - I guess it would send all of the Manchester to North Wales services via Altrincham instead, which might be useful if you live on that line?

 

[Eyersey468]

I can't think of any that I would have axed however there are a few I would have reprieved.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Does it benefit you in any way for that line to be closed - I guess it would send all of the Manchester to North Wales services via Altrincham instead, which might be useful if you live on that line?

Bingo. I fully agree with and understand it not closing, but come on.

 

[nw1]

I wouldn't have cut anything, however there are a few lines which I am surprised remained open given the mood of the times: for example the Uckfield line, or Eridge-Tunbridge Wells (which did close, but not until 1985) or the Elmers End-Sanderstead link (again closed later). Also Dorking-Horsham (sending all trains through Gatwick as actually happened later).

Note, to be absolutely clear, that I would *NOT* have wanted any of these lines to close, particularly Uckfield and Dorking-Horsham, but surprised, given how savage the cuts were elsewhere, that these lines, which mostly traversed rural areas which must have been sparsely populated in the 60s, were not closed at the time.

I am particularly surprised Eridge-Tunbridge Wells lasted so long, as it didn't provide a useful link to anywhere (other than Crowborough and Uckfield to Kent, which can't have been a huge market) once the old route on to Lewes was truncated at Uckfield. If they kept that open, why not Uckfield to Lewes? Then there could have been genuinely useful through services from Brighton to Kent. Seems strange to close one and not the other, would have been more sensible to keep both (my preferred option), or close both.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Elmer’s End to Sanderstead should have been closed in the 1960s. Never made any money and the area survived its closure in and after WW1. Not serving the biggest place in the area (Croydon) was not a good idea.

 

[nw1]

Elmer’s End to Sanderstead should have been closed in the 1960s. Never made any money and the area survived its closure in and after WW1. Not serving the biggest place in the area (Croydon) was not a good idea.

Yes, that's an oddity of that line. I think it's just a relic of the South Eastern wanting to find a route to Brighton isn't it?

Surprised it kept going as long as it did. Maybe if one of the stations had been renamed 'Croydon XXX Road' it might have done better, linking Croydon to the Hayes line and thence the South Eastern network? (Not sure exactly how far it was to central Croydon from any of the stations though - maybe too far to be useful in any case).

Coulsdon North is another in the same area without an obvious purpose, but I think, if I remember right, that kept going as long as it did (still open in 1981) because it served as a convenient terminus for peak suburban extras from central London to the Croydon area; the units could arrive in the terminus platforms and not get in the way of anything else.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Many lines in Scotland and Wales had the worst case for keeping open.
Long lines with few stations and passengers, such as the Cambrian Line, Mid Wales Line, and West Highland Line for example will never be successful and are a waste of resources, compared to lines like the Great Central Mainline, Leeds to Darlington Line, etc.
Lines weren't closed on a logical basis, we all know that when car use exploded that some lines would not be efficient as before, but politics played too much a role, keeping lines open in marginal seats, and closing lines in other areas.

 

[yorksrob]

Hmmm. I think I would have to say none.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Yes, that's an oddity of that line. I think it's just a relic of the South Eastern wanting to find a route to Brighton isn't it?

Surprised it kept going as long as it did. Maybe if one of the stations had been renamed 'Croydon XXX Road' it might have done better, linking Croydon to the Hayes line and thence the South Eastern network? (Not sure exactly how far it was to central Croydon from any of the stations though - maybe too far to be useful in any case).

Coulsdon North is another in the same area without an obvious purpose, but I think, if I remember right, that kept going as long as it did (still open in 1981) because it served as a convenient terminus for peak suburban extras from central London to the Croydon area; the units could arrive in the terminus platforms and not get in the way of anything else.

Links to the Hayes line in the 1960s were provided by the 119 and 194 buses, which went into central Croydon. Links to the wider South Eastern Division network were via London Bridge. Of the stations Selsdon is very near South Croydon, and there were trains from the latter to Croydon itself and London Bridge (the latter much quicker than via Selsdon and a change at Elmers End (the spelling of which varied over time). Coombe Road was near a park and low density housing. Bingham Road was quite built up, but it was quicker in the 1960s to get the 12 bus to East Croydon and then the train, or use Addiscombe or Woodside which, although slow, did have all day trains.

 

[The Ham]

There's certainly some which appear to be questionable as to why they were kept and not replaced with buses, especially some of the short branch lines.

For instance the Lymington branch would appear to be an easy one to have cut and replaced with a bus lane running along the route instead. Especially given that you could have had buses connect from a wider area to use it (either heading to the pier or to connect with the railway at Brockenhurst).

It would have also enabled a bus stop to be provided by the hospital, which isn't currently served by the trains.

The journey time wouldn't have been much different to rail but could have been more frequent if it was possible to put in some paint bays (again something the trains haven't been able to do).

 

[mike57]

I was always surprised the Wimbledon - West Croydon via Mitcham service survived long enough to be converted to tram. I dont know if was slated for closure in the Beeching era, but I used it a few times in the late 70's and even 2 coaches seemed too many, a lot of fresh air, and very few passengers.

 

[JonathanH]

I was always surprised the Wimbledon - West Croydon via Mitcham service survived long enough to be converted to tram. I dont know if was slated for closure in the Beeching era, but I used it a few times in the late 70's and even 2 coaches seemed too many, a lot of fresh air, and very few passengers.

It had freight use though into the 1970s with the gas works at Beddington.

Information here includes some interesting comments about closure proposals from 1950 onwards.

http://disused-stations.org.uk/b/beddington_lane/index.shtml

I dont seem to be able to select the text to quote the relevant bits about potential closure in 1951 and the early 1970s before the actual closure for Tramlink.

 

[mike57]

@JonathanH Thats an interesting link, thanks. I worked near Morden Road station for a couple of years in the late 70s before I moved to Yorkshire and used the train from there on a few occasions, mainly to Wimbledon. So it looks like Beeching didn't mention it, but it had still been on the closure 'radar' for a considerable period.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I would have closed a few stations which even today are total basket cases, e.g. Shippea Hill and Breich.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd have saved the Holmfirth branch. In the spirit of the thread I suppose I have to close something to balance it out, so I guess the Colne branch gets the axe.

 

[Revaulx]

I'd have saved the Holmfirth branch. In the spirit of the thread I suppose I have to close something to balance it out, so I guess the Colne branch gets the axe.

Surely Holmfirth closed before Beeching? Meltham also.

Kirkburton lost its passenger service in 1930!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Surely Holmfirth closed before Beeching? Meltham also.

Kirkburton lost its passenger service in 1930!

Holmfirth was indeed a pre-Beeching closure in 1959. Nevertheless it would be saved if I had been in charge, even if it meant having to put the rails back.

Meltham survived for freight from the David Brown tractor factory. Unfortunately there was no such facility in Holmfirth that might have kept the alignment intact for long enough that re-opening might have become an objective for the likes of Metro.

 

[Revaulx]

@61653 HTAFC yes I quite agree. Traffic on the A6042 is only going to get worse with all the housing development currently going on.

 

[lachlan]

None. Too much was cut, not too little.

 

[30907]

Yes, that's an oddity of that line. I think it's just a relic of the South Eastern wanting to find a route to Brighton isn't it?

Surprised it kept going as long as it did.

It was revived by the SR (with Government money IIRC) in the 30s, essentially as somewhere to send Mid-Kent Line trains to instead of round the curve to Beckenham Jn (the growth was at Clock House and beyond).

Maybe if one of the stations had been renamed 'Croydon XXX Road' it might have done better, linking Croydon to the Hayes line and thence the South Eastern network?

Addiscombe was "and Croydon Rd" having started life as Croydon

Coulsdon North is another in the same area without an obvious purpose, but I think, if I remember right, that kept going as long as it did (still open in 1981) because it served as a convenient terminus for peak suburban extras from central London to the Croydon area; the units could arrive in the terminus platforms and not get in the way of anything else.

That's why it was built - remember that Caterham and Tadworth were SECR lines, and South Croydon, Purley Oaks and Purley needed serving.

 

[pdeaves]

Does the answer depend on whether you view the question with Beeching era eyes or modern eyes? i.e. taking account of subsequent developments or not?

 

[YorksLad12]

The Clayton West branch off the Penistone Line survived perhaps longer than necessary, unless there was pit (workers) traffic? It only branched from the Huddersfield direction and ran two stops, but survived until the mid-1980s when, I think, WYPTA made it (and singling) conditional on future support for the route in West Yorkshire.

 

[nw1]

It was revived by the SR (with Government money IIRC) in the 30s, essentially as somewhere to send Mid-Kent Line trains to instead of round the curve to Beckenham Jn (the growth was at Clock House and beyond).


Addiscombe was "and Croydon Rd" having started life as Croydon

That's why it was built - remember that Caterham and Tadworth were SECR lines, and South Croydon, Purley Oaks and Purley needed serving.

That's true, and presumably the reason why Caterham services continued to originate from Charing Cross even in the late 80s (possibly later), even though they were operated with Southern units, including 455s which have never run on the South Eastern. Strange how these historical quirks keep influencing services years after they were relevant - on the face of it there seems little reason to have kept the Caterhams running into Charing Cross into the late 80s. London Bridge capacity was presumably not the reason, as during the peak, they originated there and ran at double the frequency.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2021 ==

It was revived by the SR (with Government money IIRC) in the 30s, essentially as somewhere to send Mid-Kent Line trains to instead of round the curve to Beckenham Jn (the growth was at Clock House and beyond).

(Elmers End-Sanderstead) What's amazing is that as late as 1981 they still saw a need for a 20-minute-interval peak service (though there was nothing off peak) - which. from my reading of the timetable, required 2 units running a shuttle service. Presumably it attracted some commuter traffic from say the Lewisham area to and from the Croydon area, enough to justify the line remaining open?

 

[Bevan Price]

Surely Holmfirth closed before Beeching? Meltham also.

Kirkburton lost its passenger service in 1930!

Holmfirth only really started to become a bit of a tourist attraction after "Last Of The Summer Wine" became a popular TV comedy starting in 1973.

 

[30907]

That's true, and presumably the reason why Caterham services continued to originate from Charing Cross even in the late 80s (possibly later), even though they were operated with Southern units, including 455s which have never run on the South Eastern. Strange how these historical quirks keep influencing services years after they were relevant - on the face of it there seems little reason to have kept the Caterhams running into Charing Cross into the late 80s.

It gave a West End terminus for the two branches, relieving the congested Victoria route - and a fast offpeak service (back in the day) to London Br from Croydon. Not broke, don't fix.

London Bridge capacity was presumably not the reason, as during the peak, they originated there and ran at double the frequency.

It was the other way round: Charing Cross capacity in the peaks was the problem.

(Elmers End-Sanderstead) What's amazing is that as late as 1981 they still saw a need for a 20-minute-interval peak service (though there was nothing off peak) - which. from my reading of the timetable, required 2 units running a shuttle service.

Correct. But running to Addiscombe instead would still have needed 1 of the 2.

Presumably it attracted some commuter traffic from say the Lewisham area to and from the Croydon area, enough to justify the line remaining open?

Don't think there was any reverse direction commuting to speak of - the Croydon end was/is purely residential - so just a few commuters from the East side of Croydon.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Agree with 30907. There’s no reason to commute to Coombe Road, Selsdon or Sanderstead. There was a private school at Sanderstead, but I doubt it’s clientele would have come from the Mid Kent line. As I’ve suggested earlier any people wanting to go to this area from the Mid Kent line catchment would have gone by bus: 54, 75, 119, 194.