(TRIVIA) Useful lines never built because of geography

[Old Yard Dog]

The development of railways has in many cases been constrained by geography and in many cases journeys would be much quicker if line builders did not have to take circuitous routes.

Routes such as Hull - Grimsby, West Kirby - Rhyl, Southend - Canterbury, Swansea - Ilfracombe or Skegness - Kings Lynn could have been built if it wasn't for the prohibitive cost of crossing wide estuaries.

But what about purely inland routes? In my opinion, a main line between Hellifield and Darlington would cut a huge amount of time on journeys from Manchester and Liverpool to the north east. But of course that would have meant building through hill and dale across a beautiful part of Yorkshire. Instead passengers have to make a huge detour via York (or Carlisle).

What other routes could have been built if the environment didn't matter and money was no object?

 

[swt_passenger]

What other routes could have been built if the environment didn't matter and money was no object?

The Newcastle to Edinburgh 'straight line' route. One of my books about railway development in the area mentions that a route was surveyed that included a long tunnel under the Carter Bar area, the present route of the A68 over the borders...

 

[boxy321]

HS2 come to mind.

 

[najaB]

The Newcastle to Edinburgh 'straight line' route. One of my books about railway development in the area mentions that a route was surveyed that included a long tunnel under the Carter Bar area, the present route of the A68 over the borders...

Given the geography, I can't imagine that would've been much faster despite being a good few miles shorter.

 

[Bantamzen]

But what about purely inland routes? In my opinion, a main line between Hellifield and Darlington would cut a huge amount of time on journeys from Manchester and Liverpool to the north east. But of course that would have meant building through hill and dale across a beautiful part of Yorkshire. Instead passengers have to make a huge detour via York (or Carlisle).

There was a similar route via Kirby Stephen running to the North in the form of the South Durham and Lancashire Union Railway, although it would have been less use for parts of the North West:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Durham_and_Lancashire_Union_Railway

Of course this line took advantage of the geography allowing parts to run along valleys, whereas a direct Hellifield - Darlington route would be faced with getting across the Dales with even less forgiving moorlands. And even the SD&LU still faced some gruelling climbs to Stainmore Summit, which meant it was often the victim of some of Yorkshire's best line closing weather! I imagine that Hellifield - North East journeys were possible going via Skipton - Ilkley - Otley - Harrogate - Ripon, or am I mistaken?

 

[adamedwards]

Had Wordsworth and chums not been such nimbys we'd have a rail line through the Lakes District making Ambleside and Keswick much easier to get to.

 

[Waldgrun]

I believe that a line was planned from Haslemere (Surrey) to Midhurst (West Sussex). Which would have meant that trains could have approached and departed that town in four directions! However it was not built because of the cost of tunneling under the Downs near Fernhurst. I would like to think that had it been built, it would most likely still been open today! For I feel sure that it would have been electrified in the 1930's with the Portsmouth direct line, a little bit like the Alton branch!

 

[pemma]

Macclesfield to Buxton which was proposed as part of a long distance route which would run Warrington-Macclesfield-Buxton and beyond.

 

[Cowley]

An interesting thread. My fantasy routes would have been a line linking Exeter, Sidmouth, Lyme Regis, Weymouth, Swanage, Poole and Bournemouth (Exeter to Bournemouth is an awkward and slow journey however you do it).
Also a route around the back of Dawlish and Teignmouth and a direct link between Paignton and and the current route from Newton Abbot to Plymouth.

Excellent. A genuine chance to get the crayons out without being shouted at...

 

[cuccir]

There was a similar route via Kirby Stephen running to the North in the form of the South Durham and Lancashire Union Railway, although it would have been less use for parts of the North West:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Durham_and_Lancashire_Union_Railway

A line which originally was targeted at getting coal from the North-East to the factories of Lancashire I believe. If you ever find yourself in that part of Cumbria, you can still walk part of this line including some impressive viaducts on what is now Smardale Gill Nature Reserve. There is some good railway history along the way!

 

[DarloRich]

There was a similar route via Kirby Stephen running to the North in the form of the South Durham and Lancashire Union Railway, although it would have been less use for parts of the North West:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Durham_and_Lancashire_Union_Railway

Of course this line took advantage of the geography allowing parts to run along valleys, whereas a direct Hellifield - Darlington route would be faced with getting across the Dales with even less forgiving moorlands. And even the SD&LU still faced some gruelling climbs to Stainmore Summit, which meant it was often the victim of some of Yorkshire's best line closing weather! I imagine that Hellifield - North East journeys were possible going via Skipton - Ilkley - Otley - Harrogate - Ripon, or am I mistaken?

Point of order - is Stainmore summit not in County Durham? We have much harder weather than your Yorkist stuff

 

[squizzler]

Manchester and Milford railway via the Llangurig tunnel. The tunnel did not get built and as a fallback the western part of the line became the Carmarthen–Aberystwyth line (now proposed for re-opening).

 

[Bantamzen]

A line which originally was targeted at getting coal from the North-East to the factories of Lancashire I believe. If you ever find yourself in that part of Cumbria, you can still walk part of this line including some impressive viaducts on what is now Smardale Gill Nature Reserve. There is some good railway history along the way!

I remember Tony Robinson walking along part of the route when he did his Coast to Coast documentary. Its on the list of places I want to walk!!

Point of order - is Stainmore summit not in County Durham? We have much harder weather than your Yorkist stuff

My bad, although I do not agree about the weather. County Durham is where Yorkshire Weather goes to retire.....

 

[thenorthern]

Quite a few things around Bradford.

 

[J-2739]

I can think of many Underground lines not built in South London due to that dodgy chalk formation...

 

[anti-pacer]

We have much harder weather than your Yorkist stuff

I never had Buckinghamshire down as a place of hard weather, but you learn something new every day!

 

[adrock1976]

I never had Buckinghamshire down as a place of hard weather, but you learn something new every day!

The poster is not referring to Buckinghamshire weather, but that in their home town of Darlington, Co. Durham.

I thought you may or may not have worked that out from the first part of the username, with "Darlo" being a short form of Darlington. As I am originally from the West Midlands, Wolverhampton is commonly referred to as either "Wolves" (same as the nickname of the local football team), or "The Wolvo".

Back on topic, a line that was planned but never built (or completed) that comes to my mind is the disused viaduct near Dewsbury. The Midland Railway attempted to reach Bradford, but soon after constructing the viaduct, they ran out of money. The Midland Railway decided to switch to Leeds instead for their main hub in the West Riding of Yorkshire.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The poster is not referring to Buckinghamshire weather, but that in their home town of Darlington, Co. Durham.

I thought you may or may not have worked that out from the first part of the username, with "Darlo" being a short form of Darlington. As I am originally from the West Midlands, Wolverhampton is commonly referred to as either "Wolves" (same as the nickname of the local football team), or "The Wolvo".

Back on topic, a line that was planned but never built (or completed) that comes to my mind is the disused viaduct near Dewsbury. The Midland Railway attempted to reach Bradford, but soon after constructing the viaduct, they ran out of money. The Midland Railway decided to switch to Leeds instead for their main hub in the West Riding of Yorkshire.

There are many a disused viaduct near Dewsbury, which one do you mean?

If a cross-Bradford line had been built back in the railway boom years, no doubt it would be useful today, though possibly less so dependent on which lines in the area had been cut in that parallel universe's version of Beeching.

One thing round here where I get a bit "What might've been..." about is the fact that two branches were built, by different railways, to fairly insignificant villages South of Huddersfield. Though they departed Huddersfield in opposite directions, they both terminated fairly close together with one being the Deighton to Kirkburton branch and the other being Shepley to Clayton West. The Midland planned at one point to extend the Kirkburton line to Barnsley but this never happened. Likewise there were various proposals to extend from Clayton West to Barnsley via Kexborough and Darton, which again didn't happen. Had either of these lines been built, it may have led to the present-day Huddersfield to Sheffield services not needing to make the detour round Barnsley, with a more direct route taken instead from Penistone towards Sheffield (not necessarily the former Woodhead line route via Stocksbridge and Neepsend).

Beyond Clayton West, there now exists the Yorkshire Sculpture Park and Bretton Hall Country Park though:- not something you'd want to try building a railway through!

 

[bluenoxid]

Was there a proposal to build up the valley from Grassington, then tunnel through the Pennines towards Leyburn.

 

[30907]

An interesting thread. My fantasy routes would have been a line linking Exeter, Sidmouth, Lyme Regis, Weymouth, Swanage, Poole and Bournemouth (Exeter to Bournemouth is an awkward and slow journey however you do it).
Also a route around the back of Dawlish and Teignmouth and a direct link between Paignton and and the current route from Newton Abbot to Plymouth.

Excellent. A genuine chance to get the crayons out without being shouted at...

Exeter to Dorchester and beyond was regularly proposed in the C19th but lost out to the Salisbury and Exeter route. One or two of the schemes would have taken the line through Uplyme but I doubt Sidmouth was ever an option!

BTW Swanage to Bournemouth surely should go via the Sandbanks Lifting Bridge?

 

[Cowley]

Exeter to Dorchester and beyond was regularly proposed in the C19th but lost out to the Salisbury and Exeter route. One or two of the schemes would have taken the line through Uplyme but I doubt Sidmouth was ever an option!

BTW Swanage to Bournemouth surely should go via the Sandbanks Lifting Bridge?

Yes I suppose Sidmouth wouldn't really be worth the effort. Unless I could have a bridge between Dawlish Warren and Exmouth and route following the coast from there?
Interesting though, I like the thought of a lifting bridge at Sandbanks...

 

[southern442]

I can think of many Underground lines not built in South London due to that dodgy chalk formation...

I used to live in South London and the thought of proposals of Tube lines in the area was always quite interesting for me. I've drawn up some proposals myself in my spare time following subterranean rivers and the like, just to see what could have been.

 

[anti-pacer]

The poster is not referring to Buckinghamshire weather, but that in their home town of Darlington, Co. Durham.

I thought you may or may not have worked that out from the first part of the username, with "Darlo" being a short form of Darlington. As I am originally from the West Midlands, Wolverhampton is commonly referred to as either "Wolves" (same as the nickname of the local football team), or "The Wolvo".

Back on topic, a line that was planned but never built (or completed) that comes to my mind is the disused viaduct near Dewsbury. The Midland Railway attempted to reach Bradford, but soon after constructing the viaduct, they ran out of money. The Midland Railway decided to switch to Leeds instead for their main hub in the West Riding of Yorkshire.

I know where he's from, hence all the emoji's at the end. I was TRYING to be humerous.

Goodnight folks! :roll:

 

[adrock1976]

I know where he's from, hence all the emoji's at the end. I was TRYING to be humerous.

Goodnight folks! :roll:

My apologies.

 

[theageofthetra]

There was a proposal to build a line west from Orpington via what became Biggin Hill to join with a fully completed Mid Kent.

 

[Cowley]

On a serious note. I spent a bit of time plotting out some new routes earlier that would have dramatically altered the layout of the modern railway system had they come to pass.
I do find things like this quite thought provoking...
One of my customers is a retired cartographer who used to work for Ordinance Survey and she helped me with some of the detail.
I'm quite pleased with the results, obviously I've just concentrated on the area that I know best and I'm not that good at taking criticism but hopefully that won't be a problem...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There was a proposal to build a line west from Orpington via what became Biggin Hill to join with a fully completed Mid Kent.

"The Southen Heights Light Railway" - now , that would have been an interesting one , single line with 3d rail at quite high altitude for Southern England. Very nearly happened.

Going back to my favourite part of the UK , the Gower never got a railway into the heart (a simple coastal line ran to Llanmadoc) , partly due to the existing and challenging topography. Schemed , but never developed.

 

[unlevel42]

On a serious note. I spent a bit of time plotting out some new routes earlier that would have dramatically altered the layout of the modern railway system had they come to pass.
I do find things like this quite thought provoking...
One of my customers is a retired cartographer who used to work for Ordinance Survey and she helped me with some of the detail.
I'm quite pleased with the results, obviously I've just concentrated on the area that I know best and I'm not that good at taking criticism but hopefully that won't be a problem...

I am very disappointed that you missed opportunity for a station on Lundy.

 

[steevp]

On a serious note. I spent a bit of time plotting out some new routes earlier that would have dramatically altered the layout of the modern railway system had they come to pass.
I do find things like this quite thought provoking...
One of my customers is a retired cartographer who used to work for Ordinance Survey and she helped me with some of the detail.
I'm quite pleased with the results, obviously I've just concentrated on the area that I know best and I'm not that good at taking criticism but hopefully that won't be a problem...

Surely you should have included a secondary route to America from Landz End to serve as a diversionary route in case of the likely event of engineering works ( if you were you depending on rail replacement buses then there might be a flaw in your plan that I can't quite put my finger on)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A straight line from London to Glasgow is 346 miles, and passes through Derby, Rochdale and Dumfries.
Somehow, the West Coast Main Line manages to add 53 miles of indirectness.
HS2 will be a bit worse.