Trivia - when first class is worse than standard.

[Jturner98]

Hi everyone. Just sitting on a class 377 and am thinking some of the seats in first class are actually sideways facing. If that was all that was left in first class and I had a first class ticket id actually prefer to sit in standard. So I’m thinking what other trains actually offer a better standard than first class experience?

 

[JonathanH]

So I’m thinking what other trains actually offer a better standard than first class experience?

444s since the SWR refurbishment have drab dark blue leather seats in a 2+2 formation that isn't particularly better than standard. As there is more space in standard class it offers a better experience than first class.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’s subjective. I know, for a fact, that @Bletchleyite strongly believes first class on a 350 to be a sham, preferring the Grammar seats in standard, but I enjoy the Compin seats, recline, private compartment and window blinds that LNR First offers. I feel as though one person will always have a differing view to another.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Famously in the early-mid 1970s some ECML expresses were using the Met-Camm Mk1 Pullman coaches (without air con) as a ‘premium’ First Class accommodation compared to the brand new air-conditioned Mk2D vehicles in the rest of the train. Unsurprisingly passengers voted with their feet and the Pullmans were withdrawn from service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hi everyone. Just sitting on a class 377 and am thinking some of the seats in first class are actually sideways facing. If that was all that was left in first class and I had a first class ticket id actually prefer to sit in standard. So I’m thinking what other trains actually offer a better standard than first class experience?

All Class 350s except /2s, and even that is debatable if it is not busy as the bays of 6 have excellent legroom.

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

166 turbos used to have (perhaps still have) air conditioning that would loudly and continuously whistle in first class, making (for me at least) standard preferable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s subjective. I know, for a fact, that @Bletchleyite strongly believes first class on a 350 to be a sham, preferring the Grammar seats in standard, but I enjoy the Compin seats, recline, private compartment and window blinds that LNR First offers. I feel as though one person will always have a differing view to another.

My general view is that First Class is a sham if it does not have reduced seating density from Standard both across the train and in terms of legroom (because if you just want legroom there are priority seats). Thus in a unit with 2+2 seating, First should be 2+1. Only in 3+2 units is 2+2 First acceptable.

I'd possibly make an exception if the legroom was exceptionally generous, e.g. a metre between airline rows (700mm is a fairly normal Standard spacing). Some Swiss regional stock is like this.

The Compin seats in Class 350 1st are perfectly acceptable Standard seats, though I personally think the Grammer E3000 is better.

 

[Western 52]

The first class on the old first generation dmu sets was often little better than standard class. All you got for your money were slightly bigger seats, tatty orange curtains ( if you were lucky) and a number 1 sticker on the window! In some sets there was no toilet for first class, such as the class 116 TC cars. No wonder first class was declassified on most of them in later days!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

My general view is that First Class is a sham if it does not have reduced seating density from Standard both across the train and in terms of legroom (because if you just want legroom there are priority seats). Thus in a unit with 2+2 seating, First should be 2+1. Only in 3+2 units is 2+2 First acceptable.

The Compin seats in Class 350 1st are perfectly acceptable Standard seats.

Yes, I agree with you on that. I still value a more premium space but reckon it should have a different name. Perhaps “first class” could be used for the high quality (or not, these days) service with the larger seats and food, and then something like “Plus zone” for on trains like LNR or SWR.

Continuing on topic, I find the first class seats on a 159 to be rather firm, whereas I like the standard seats very much

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I agree with you on that. I still value a more premium space but reckon it should have a different name. Perhaps “first class” could be used for the high quality (or not, these days) service with the larger seats and food, and then something like
“Plus zone” for on trains like LNR or SWR.

If Avanti hadn't used it for something else, "Standard Premium" would be a good name for it, with "First Class" only allowed to be used for 2+1 seating. India names classes like that - there are lots of them (10 or more), but what you get in each is quite tightly defined. I can get that some will consider the small compartment with reading lights and curtains premium, though I find the best seats on a 350 to be the "extra legroom" table by the cab which actually is 1st on 360s and 450s.

 

[Clansman]

ScotRail Inverness 158s when they had their refurbishment.

Exact same configeration as in standard class but with a table lamp that reduced table space and curtains which were too thick and obscured the window when undrawn.

 

[Bletchleyite]

ScotRail Inverness 158s when they had their refurbishment.

Exact same configeration as in standard class but with a table lamp that reduced table space and curtains which were too thick and obscured the window when undrawn.

Was there ever the intention to run these on services needing 1st on a day to day basis? Mostly they do Wick/Thurso and Kyle where it is declassified. Being a cynic, I suspect they were done like that so there wouldn't need to be refunds if they were subbed for a 170.

 

[Clansman]

Was there ever the intention to run these on services needing 1st on a day to day basis? Mostly they do Wick/Thurso and Kyle where it is declassified. Being a cynic, I suspect they were done like that so there wouldn't need to be refunds if they were subbed for a 170.

Did they not try to offer it on the FNL?

Maybe you're right about the 170 switches. Even today double 158s are fairly common place on Inverness to Glasgow/Edinburgh runs so the additional luggage and seating capacity alone would have made having 1st worth it. Especially since those services have the highest First Class ticket uptake lf any I7C route.

 

[Bill57p9]

IIRC there were some Southern Region EMUs that had First Class moved to vehicles with noisy compressors during 1980s refurbishments which was a bit of an error.

I do recall loco hauled North Wales coast services in the 90s that had First class mark 1s but early mark 2s for Standard (I think this was after it was renamed for second class - I'm showing my age here aren't I)

 

[Bletchleyite]

IIRC there were some Southern Region EMUs that had First Class moved to vehicles with noisy compressors during 1980s refurbishments which was a bit of an error.

I do recall loco hauled North Wales coast services in the 90s that had First class mark 1s but early mark 2s for Standard (I think this was after it was renamed for second class - I'm showing my age here aren't I)

In the late 90s it was a Mk2 BFK (brake first compartment), there was often a Mk1 TSO in the consist, though. Not sure what there was before that.

 

[najaB]

Being a cynic, I suspect they were done like that so there wouldn't need to be refunds if they were subbed for a 170.

Back in the day 158s subbing in for 170s wasn't that common. Not to say it never happened, but I used to be up that way several times a year (maybe 15 to 20 journeys a year) and can't think of any time it happened to me.

 

[greyman42]

The first class on the old first generation dmu sets was often little better than standard class. All you got for your money were slightly bigger seats, tatty orange curtains ( if you were lucky) and a number 1 sticker on the window! In some sets there was no toilet for first class, such as the class 116 TC cars. No wonder first class was declassified on most of them in later days!

As i remember, the first class seats were very comfortable on the first generation DMUs.
I thought they were declassified due to a lack of demand on certain lines such as Newcastle-South Shields.

 

[43066]

Hi everyone. Just sitting on a class 377 and am thinking some of the seats in first class are actually sideways facing. If that was all that was left in first class and I had a first class ticket id actually prefer to sit in standard. So I’m thinking what other trains actually offer a better standard than first class experience?

465/9 networker 2+2 first class seating I find a lot more cramped than their 3+2 standard seats, I think because of the arm rests.

Overall not a premium experience at all.

 

[Trackman]

The old GA MK3's.
I'm tall, it was leg crippling in First.
Took Standard after that, not that much better- but an improvement as I could kneel on the seats whilst talking to family without looking like an idiot.

As I remember, the first class seats were very comfortable on the first generation DMUs.

They were, I'll have to find some photos later.

 

[JaJaWa]

Class 700s, the lip on the front of the First Class seats makes the journey a more painful experience that in Standard.

 

[stj]

Often WCML sets had Mk2 Firsts when the Seconds were Mk3.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Class 700s, the lip on the front of the First Class seats makes the journey a more painful experience that in Standard.

The "wonderful" Fainsa Sophia again. Bizarrely the LNR 730s will have this abomination in 1st and the superior Kiel seat in Std.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Agree with earlier comments about so called First Class on services like SWR, LNR etc should really be branded as Standard Premium or Plus.

Then real First Class proper for longer distance intercity services like AWC, LNER, TPE, XC, GWR, EMR, Scotrail Inter7city and TfW Premier with Standard Premium as 3rd option if the TOC chooses to as AWC have done.

Is it Southern or GX which has exact same seats in First Class but only with a piece of paper stuck on headrests?

 

[Kite159]

Agree with earlier comments about so called First Class on services like SWR, LNR etc should really be branded as Standard Premium or Plus.

Then real First Class proper for longer distance intercity services like AWC, LNER, TPE, XC, GWR, EMR, Scotrail Inter7city and TfW Premier with Standard Premium as 3rd option if the TOC chooses to as AWC have done.

Is it Southern or GX which has exact same seats in First Class but only with a piece of paper stuck on headrests?

Yep the Southern 377/6&7s plus the Gatwick 387s. Same seat as found in standard with a bit of paper on the top.

Also the Great Northern 387s.

Think it's the same seats used on South Eastern on the 375s (bar the high density/9s).

 

[fgwrich]

444s since the SWR refurbishment have drab dark blue leather seats in a 2+2 formation that isn't particularly better than standard. As there is more space in standard class it offers a better experience than first class.

In a similar vein, I would also nominate SWR's Sprinter fleet. I'm no fan of the original BR Seats used in standard, but all First brings you is a large and rather firm seat in a 2+1 Formation. Possibly the only benefit at the moment is that they have plug sockets, whereas standard does not. There isn't even a partition door separating the two classes these days either. Find yourself a table seat in standard (without any boxes underneath) and it makes for a fairly pleasant journey.

Now, I wonder what the future refurbishment holds for this area... It will be noticeably worse if they chose the same FC seats as the 444s, in 2+2, after plug socket fitment to the rest of the unit.

 

[JonathanH]

Think it's the same seats used on South Eastern on the 375s (bar the high density/9s).

Slightly differently contoured headrest now on the South Eastern 375s in First class compared to standard class.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Sorry to ask, does GWR have First Class in 387s and 158s as it's been a long while since I last used GWR? Cheers

 

[TXMISTA]

Sorry to ask, does GWR have First Class in 387s and 158s as it's been a long while since I last used GWR? Cheers

No, both are standard class only. Their IETs and TV 165 sets are their only trains that offer first class. 166s have declassified first class in the front and end but it is permanently declassified or locked out of use. If I’m not mistaken, the 769s will have first class when they come into service.

 

[fgwrich]

Sorry to ask, does GWR have First Class in 387s and 158s as it's been a long while since I last used GWR? Cheers

No on both accounts I’m afraid. There is no first class offerings on the core “West Fleet” (HST / 150 / 158), the closest thing to it is the small and now declassified First Class compartment on the 166s (No First Class on the 2 car 165s) which may or may not be open - it seems to vary a lot.

There is a small FC section on some of the “LTV Thames Valley” fleet (3 car 165 / 769) but no First Class offerings on the 387 and 230? Fleets.

 

[Welshman]

As i remember, the first class seats were very comfortable on the first generation DMUs.
I thought they were declassified due to a lack of demand on certain lines such as Newcastle-South Shields.

I think it differed from one class to another.
The original Met-Cam sets [later Cl.101] had cushions so thick you bounced up and down in them when passing at speed over indifferent pointwork and 60 ft rails.
But the later "Calder Valley" units [Cl.110] had much firmer seats, and the NER sets were quite spartan [at least the LMR batch had curtains!].