TRTS - does it really mean 'Train Ready to Start'?

[yorkie]

I've noticed on several occasions the TRTS (Train Ready to Start) button appears to being pressed when a train is not yet ready to start.

A good example of this today is 1P79 (14:47 Man Air - Middlesbrough) had the TRTS button pressed for it at Leeds platform 15 around 16:22 before the train was even in the platform.

As a result, this train was given the road towards York ahead of 2T23 (16:24 Leeds - York), which also had the TRTS button pressed for it.

However the train was far from ready to start, and after several minutes the signal was put back to red.

The 16:24 stopping service departed over 7 minutes late as a result, whereas it would have otherwise departed on time.

So, does 'TRTS' still mean 'Train Ready to Start' and is it incorrect to press the button when the train is not ready to start? Or does it no longer have this meaning, in which case what does it mean?

Is there any penalty for operators who press this button when their trains are not ready to start?

Ironically, TPE will be incurring additional delay on their services on this line now, compared to if they had let the Northern train depart on time.

 

[_toommm_]

I was always under the impression that it is only used when everything is in order for the train to go, two minutes before booked departure.

Saying that, I've seen some dispatch staff mash it as the train enters, before they can even check if it is genuinely ready to depart (mostly at stations mid-way through the journey, such as Leeds like in your example)

 

[Aictos]

It still means Train Ready To Start, that TPE might have been assumed by platform staff as having been given priority due to late running and rightly or wrongly they pressed the TRTS button to advise the signaller it was ready not knowing that it would incur a another delay at Leeds.

I don’t think they did anything wrong as how were staff meant to know that the TPE be even later?

 

[Crossover]

Saying that, I've seen some dispatch staff mash it as the train enters, before they can even check if it is genuinely ready to depart (mostly at stations mid-way through the journey, such as Leeds like in your example)

A service I was travelling on last weekend, leaving at York, had this done I believe as I was stood at the door next to the TRTS as we pulled in. In the event, there was a small delay to it being dispatched, though don't believe it caused any undue delays to anything else on that occasion

 

[Ianno87]

A service I was travelling on last weekend, leaving at York, had this done I believe as I was stood at the door next to the TRTS as we pulled in. In the event, there was a small delay to it being dispatched, though don't believe it caused any undue delays to anything else on that occasion

Depends - if the TRTS was pushed but the delay was simply waiting for the last passengers to board, that's fair game.

If the delay was waiting for the driver/guard to turn up, the TRTS would have been pushed incorrectly.

 

[yorkie]

It still means Train Ready To Start

So it indicates a train is ready to depart, right?

that TPE might have been assumed by platform staff as having been given priority

I don't understand what this means?

due to late running and rightly or wrongly they pressed the TRTS button to advise the signaller it was ready

So, just to clarify, you are saying a train is ready to depart the station when it is approaching the station?

not knowing that it would incur a another delay at Leeds.

The train had not yet arrived at Leeds so I am not sure how anyone would know if it was ready to depart or not at that point.

I don’t think they did anything wrong as how were staff meant to know that the TPE be even later?

Just to clarify, you are saying the TRTS button indicates the train is ready to depart, and that this button should be pressed as a train is approaching the platform, as a train that is approaching a station is ready to depart?

 

[ashkeba]

I've noticed on several occasions the TRTS (Train Ready to Start) button appears to being pressed when a train is not yet ready to start.

A good example of this today is 1P79 (14:47 Man Air - Middlesbrough) had the TRTS button pressed for it at Leeds platform 15 around 16:22 before the train was even in the platform.

As a result, this train was given the road towards York ahead of 2T23 (16:24 Leeds - York), which also had the TRTS button pressed for it.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/trts-and-ra.122933/ makes me think that pressing TRTS should have done nothing before the train was in the platform: "Provided the relevant platform track(s) occupied causes an indication (generally blue flashing light) to illuminate on panel / VDU so that signaller's attention is drawn to it". Have I misunderstood or is Leeds's TRTS indication not checking that provision?

 

[800002]

As dispatch duties rely upon the departing signal being 'OFF' (please correct me, if I am incorrect), the TRTS is required to be smashed in order to get the dispatch initiated.
I guess though, at such a busy station, the platform staff are eager to keep things moving and perhaps got caught out this time around.
It's the signallers call to decide which TRTS gets the go ahead first, isn't it? So as he is acting on what he sees on screen, he makes the best call within his power / follows the instruction given to him from above.

Any idea what the additional time at Leeds was about? If the signal was put back to Danger, that would have required input from the Driver.
I would say the platform staff were trying to do a good thing, which hampered overall service at the station.
Whether they were correct in doing so, another question (which I can't answer).

 

[tgrb]

Where is this said button?

 

[800002]

Where is this said button?

At busy stations, usually:
In a box / on a pannel, which is either locked (box) or Key operated (pannel) somewhere on the platform. Likely on the wall or on a post / in a box on said post.
There may be two such button located close to one another, one each for the respective direction (and signal it is related to).

 

[yorkie]

As dispatch duties rely upon the departing signal being 'OFF' (please correct me, if I am incorrect), the TRTS is required to be smashed in order to get the dispatch initiated.

Pressed, yes. I refer you to the thread I linked to in my opening post: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/trts-and-ra.122933/#post-2355359

I guess though, at such a busy station, the platform staff are eager to keep things moving and perhaps got caught out this time around.

If you are saying it is correct to press the TRTS button is going to be pressed when a train is not ready to start, because it has not yet even arrived, it begs the question of why have it?

It's the signallers call to decide which TRTS gets the go ahead first, isn't it?

It's the signallers call to decide which train to give the green signal to, yes, but I would have thought their decision to give a green signal to the TPE train was because they were informed it was ready to depart.

So as he is acting on what he sees on screen, he makes the best call within his power / follows the instruction given to him from above.

Absolutely; the signallers were told the TPE was ready to depart so it makes sense they would give that train the green signal.

Any idea what the additional time at Leeds was about? If the signal was put back to Danger, that would have required input from the Driver.

I don't have that information.

I would say the platform staff were trying to do a good thing, which hampered overall service at the station.

If it's a good thing to state to signallers that a train approaching the station is ready to depart the station, then that begs the question: what information are they giving to the signallers?

Whether they were correct in doing so, another question (which I can't answer).

The question appears to be whether it is correct to state a train is ready to depart when it has not yet arrived.

Where is this said button?

At the platform.

 

[attics26]

can only talk about the station I work at but if we waited til the train was ready to depart before pressing trts then every single train would depart late, unless arriving early, yes it does happen, I would press trts once train had passed signal towards the south end of platform 4 or was half way down platform 1, often we then have to assist passengers to board before continuing dispatch procedure, mebbe shouldn't be called trts!

 

[ashkeba]

[...] I would press trts once train had passed signal towards the south end of platform 4 or was half way down platform 1, often we then have to assist passengers to board before continuing dispatch procedure, mebbe shouldn't be called trts!

Pressing TRTS when boarding assistance is still required seems a bit different to the description in the above link that says it should be used to tell the signaller "if they set the route that the train ought to be ready to leave (i.e. train crew on board, no expected station delays with disabled / luggage / large groups etc)" but maybe there is a more detailed description somewheree.

 

[800002]

Pressed, yes. I refer you to the thread I linked to in my opening post: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/trts-and-ra.122933/#post-2355359

Apologies - i didnt see that you had hyper-linked text to another forum thread.

If you are saying it is correct to press the TRTS button is going to be pressed when a train is not ready to start, because it has not yet even arrived, it begs the question of why have it?

I wasn't saying the action taken, by the staff member, was correct (or incorrect) - I would have to consult the TOC's operating manual, which I dont have access to. The whole situation could be the result of alackof understanding / knowledge surounding the use of TRTS.
It (TRTS) is clearly there for a defined purpose. [Not wishing tobe tooflippant, but how else are station staff going to communicate easily and effectively (granted, this latter point failed on this occasion) and safely with the signaller, often many miles away from the station?]

I don't have that information

Unfortunate, but that's okay -i was just asking on the off chance. - I feel it may explain the additional impact of the button being pressed (in my own opinion) prematurely).

If it's a good thing to state to signallers that a train approaching the station is ready to depart the station, then that begs the question: what information are they giving to the signallers?

I don't think that is desirable in the vast majority of situations. Again, it may come back to the individuals understanding of what they are doing and why.

The question appears to be whether it is correct to state a train is ready to depart when it has not yet arrived.

May I suggest the word 'acceptable' also?

Is there any penalty for operators who press this button when their trains are not ready to start?

That is a question which I would like to see an answer to.
I suspect Delay Codes
R1 - Incorrect train dispatch by station staff; or
RZ - Other Station Operator causes
Could be employed by the Delay Attributer after investigation.

 

[Bovverboy]

The 16:24 stopping service departed over 7 minutes late as a result, whereas it would have otherwise departed on time.

I don't think it can be assumed that 2T23 would have been given the off at 1624, just because its TRTS button might have been pressed, and that for 1P79 hadn't. 1P79 was a late-running Class 1 train, 2T23 was an on-time Class 2. I'm sure that 1P79 would have been given some degree of priority over 2T23 (probably, several minutes) and 2T23 would only have been despatched when it became apparent that there was going to be an unacceptable/unknown delay to 1P79. That 1P79 had its TRTS button pressed incorrectly probably wouldn't have helped its chances, though, I imagine. I say the foregoing, knowing the priority which is afforded to Class 1 trains over Class 2 when departing Manchester Oxford Road heading for the CLC route.
Can I presume that there is nowhere between Leeds and York where one train can overtake another? Btw, in the event, 1P79 was terminated at York.

 

[800002]

Can I presume that there is nowhere between Leeds and York where one train can overtake another?

You may.
The only exception being once past Church Fenton - a train can be switched to the Normanton Line and run via the Ulleskelf platform line. But I'd venture so far to say that that would be unlikely.

 

[LowLevel]

At most locations the TRTS will only work if the track circuit or axle counter section is occupied so the train at the very least needs to be in the vicinity of the platform for it to actually function.

When you press it depends on what is occurring. 2 minutes before departure time is the usual standard. That doesn't stop unforeseen issues occurring afterwards.

What complicates thing is automatic route setting which I imagine is in place at Leeds - the computer will set the route for the train that has the TRTS put up if it's due to leave.

I imagine at a location like Leeds the platform staff have it hammered into them to press the TRTS 'promptly' so as to avoid delay allocation for late TRTS because the ARS had already set the route for something else instead.

 

[edwin_m]

At most locations the TRTS will only work if the track circuit or axle counter section is occupied so the train at the very least needs to be in the vicinity of the platform for it to actually function.

When you press it depends on what is occurring. 2 minutes before departure time is the usual standard. That doesn't stop unforeseen issues occurring afterwards.

What complicates thing is automatic route setting which I imagine is in place at Leeds - the computer will set the route for the train that has the TRTS put up if it's due to leave.

I imagine at a location like Leeds the platform staff have it hammered into them to press the TRTS 'promptly' so as to avoid delay allocation for late TRTS because the ARS had already set the route for something else instead.

The ARS won't necessarily set a route immediately when the TRTS is operated, even if the necessary route is available. Depending on how it is set up for a particular area, it will take account of the timetable (won't set a route for significantly early departure) and of the priorities given to other trains. But it is normally the case at stations with TRTS that ARS needs to see the TRTS as one of the conditions before it will set the route.

I've often wondered why the TRTS doesn't also have a lamp next to it indicating that the button push has been registered by the system. This would give the platform staff confidence that the button was working. Also if there are any platform occupation conditions on the TRTS the lamp wouldn't light up if the TRTS was pressed too early, so staff would know they had to press it again later.

 

[LowLevel]

The ARS won't necessarily set a route immediately when the TRTS is operated, even if the necessary route is available. Depending on how it is set up for a particular area, it will take account of the timetable (won't set a route for significantly early departure) and of the priorities given to other trains. But it is normally the case at stations with TRTS that ARS needs to see the TRTS as one of the conditions before it will set the route.

I've often wondered why the TRTS doesn't also have a lamp next to it indicating that the button push has been registered by the system. This would give the platform staff confidence that the button was working. Also if there are any platform occupation conditions on the TRTS the lamp wouldn't light up if the TRTS was pressed too early, so staff would know they had to press it again later.

More modern TRTS units do light up when the button is pressed. The ones I actually use are an older type but one location where the platform staff use it has 5 ish year old ones that glow blue once the button has been pressed correctly.

Even the ancient key operated ones at Ely manage a little white light but they're bespoke ones as far as I know.

 

[yorkie]

Can I presume that there is nowhere between Leeds and York where one train can overtake another?

The stations called at by 2T23 are all on a double track section with no overtaking possible until s point at which 2T23 would have a non stop run into York.

 

[Aictos]

At most locations the TRTS will only work if the track circuit or axle counter section is occupied so the train at the very least needs to be in the vicinity of the platform for it to actually function.

At Kings Cross, this isn’t the case as the TRRS will work even from a empty platform and before anyone says it’s not possible... I’ve actually seen it happen so know it’s possible.

That’s not to say all locations are the same!

 

[Tomnick]

I’ve always understood it to indicate that the crew are all there, that the fitter’s attention isn’t required and that there’s nothing else evident that’s going to significantly delay departure. I don’t see why they shouldn’t bell it out as it arrives in the platform if the relief crew are both on the platform waiting, for example. Sometimes things develop subsequently, e.g. a door might get stuck or a fight might break out, but you can’t reasonably account for that sort of thing, and it’s more useful to routinely bell out a couple of minutes before departure rather than waiting until the last second to confirm that all’s well - that means that the absence of TRTS means that the signalman can reasonably deduce that he’s got time to make a quick conflicting move across in front.

It still means Train Ready To Start, that TPE might have been assumed by platform staff as having been given priority due to late running and rightly or wrongly they pressed the TRTS button to advise the signaller it was ready not knowing that it would incur a another delay at Leeds.

I don’t think they did anything wrong as how were staff meant to know that the TPE be even later?

It’s not (normally) for the platform staff to consider which train’s got priority before pressing TRTS. If it’s ready to go, it’s ready to go, and the signalman will ultimately decide. The only exception might be where a late-running express and a right-time stopper are operated by the same TOC, and their Control (at some level) have decided that they want the express to go first - so the platform staff might be asked not to bell the stopper out to make sure that it’s held.

 

[attics26]

Pressing TRTS when boarding assistance is still required seems a bit different to the description in the above link that says it should be used to tell the signaller "if they set the route that the train ought to be ready to leave (i.e. train crew on board, no expected station delays with disabled / luggage / large groups etc)" but maybe there is a more detailed description somewheree.

often due to staff numbers the dispatcher also has an assist to entrain/detrain which may be 3 coaches away from trts button location, to do assist first then press trts would likely mean a delayed departure, pressing button on arrival increases chance of on time start after assist complete.

 

[class 9]

The Leeds- York stopper is regularly regulated for late running express services, as if an express follows an on time time stopper imediately from Leeds, the Express will lose a further 10 mins or so.
Back to the TRTS, yes it does mean train ready to start which technically should be pressed after all passengers have boarded/alighted, but staff often press it before to get the signal in good time for booked departure time.
That said I've seen LNER staff at York press it as the train is rolling into the platform! (Yes, it was an Lner service)

 

[edwin_m]

At Kings Cross, this isn’t the case as the TRRS will work even from a empty platform and before anyone says it’s not possible... I’ve actually seen it happen so know it’s possible.

That’s not to say all locations are the same!

Along with the rest of the signalling at KX this is probably 1970s vintage and standards may have been different then.

At Leeds it probably dates from about 2000. The pressing of the TRTS described by the OP may actually have had no effect (do these ones light up?) and the signal may have been cleared either after someone pressed the TRTS again later or because the signaller learned by other means that the train was ready. Or it could be that the complicated multiple platform occupations at Leeds make it difficult to make the TRTS action conditional on the platform being occupied.

 

[The BIgman1234]

We have two types of TRTS . One type the station staff press the TRTS and a light will flash in the box to let the signaller know the train is ready to depart . The second one the driver will press the TRTS and the signal will clear . The second one is on a single branch line which is set on auto working .

 

[ashkeba]

often due to staff numbers the dispatcher also has an assist to entrain/detrain which may be 3 coaches away from trts button location, to do assist first then press trts would likely mean a delayed departure, pressing button on arrival increases chance of on time start after assist complete.

Increases their chance of an on time start but surely at the expense of any conflicting train which is truly ready to start? I think that was what @yorkie was suspecting happens.

 

[bb21]

The Leeds- York stopper is regularly regulated for late running express services, as if an express follows an on time time stopper imediately from Leeds, the Express will lose a further 10 mins or so.
Back to the TRTS, yes it does mean train ready to start which technically should be pressed after all passengers have boarded/alighted, but staff often press it before to get the signal in good time for booked departure time.
That said I've seen LNER staff at York press it as the train is rolling into the platform! (Yes, it was an Lner service)

You do not leave the TRTS until all passengers have boarded. That is just a recipe for disaster and delays across the network.

 

[221129]

It still means Train Ready To Start, that TPE might have been assumed by platform staff as having been given priority due to late running and rightly or wrongly they pressed the TRTS button to advise the signaller it was ready not knowing that it would incur a another delay at Leeds.

I don’t think they did anything wrong as how were staff meant to know that the TPE be even later?

You do not press the TRTS until the train is ready to depart. I really is that simple.

 

[Mag_seven]

Are there any local instructions governing the circumstances when it is OK to press the "TRTS" button?