"Uber loses its licence to operate in London"

[takno]

It's worth separating out the benefits of some the features the Uber app has introduced from the company itself. It's great that there's better tracking of journeys, a little less anonymity about which vehicle you are in, the ability to order without having to call, and the ability to easily pay using credit cards.

These features are however largely available through other operators at this point. Users just need an Uber-free city for a week to start using Gett and others to appreciate that they exist. With the extra custom they would gain from an Uber-free city for a matter of months they could invest in getting the rest of the way, and we would be able to choose from a range of providers all delivering a superior experience.

As to the company itself, they have been providing cheaper journeys than black cabs, that is certainly true. They've managed that through driving down driver remuneration, and pushing investment costs and risks onto drivers. Even then they continue to make a massive loss in most markets. There is only one viable long term plan - drive out competition and then push up prices. Competition in London includes not just black cabs, but also trains and buses. The threat of an Uber monopoly in the 10 year timescale is that all transport will become more expensive, less environmentally friendly and less flexible for everyone.

This situation will likely worsen if the economy actually picks up. At that point not only would real jobs become available, leading to a loss of drivers, but the car loan bubble will certainly burst, leading to collapse in the number of people who could drive for Uber even if they wanted to. The only people benefiting in these circumstances would be the VCs who own Uber.

You may feel that's a price worth paying for a few cheap trips this year. Personally I'm not sure I agree.

 

[radamfi]

How does this affect Uber services just outside the TfL boundary? Will you be able to get an Uber from, say, Gatwick to Croydon?

 

[Mojo]

I think it's excellent news, hopefully it will lead to a reduction in the number of vehicles on the road. If you walk around most central London roads it seems that the majority of vehicles are PHVs, even in suburban London at times of the day in every other vehicle you can see the PHV license stuck on the window! I remember driving to work on Boxing day and noticing how most vehicles on the North Circular were PHVs.

I think only once in the last few years have I booked a Taxi; I had just come out of a blood test and injection at the hospital and wasn't feeling up to use public transport so I used the Gett App. It cost me just less than £14 which is about the price my parents paid for an Uber journey the other year for a similar journey to St Pancras to my house (I was travelling from UCH which is just down the road).

 

[deltic]

How does this affect Uber services just outside the TfL boundary? Will you be able to get an Uber from, say, Gatwick to Croydon?

No impact - just means Uber cant pick up a fare in London, any taxi can take a passenger from its area of operation into another area.

 

[deltic]

I think it's excellent news, hopefully it will lead to a reduction in the number of vehicles on the road. If you walk around most central London roads it seems that the majority of vehicles are PHVs, even in suburban London at times of the day in every other vehicle you can see the PHV license stuck on the window! I remember driving to work on Boxing day and noticing how most vehicles on the North Circular were PHVs.

.

Cant see it making any difference to number of PHVs on the road, drivers will just switch to working for other companies.

In reality, Uber is likely to be operating in London without a break, they will appeal the situation and probably win. Its not clear why Uber have had their licence withdrawn and what they have done differently to any other operator.

 

[Richard_B]

It's very noting that this isn't TfL throwing it's toys out of the Pram at the principle of a uber-style service being allowed in London, rather the specifics of Uber being shoddy and not meeting the minimum standards to run cabs in London. And these minimum standards are not massive protectionism for Black cabs, but rather very sensible requirements around DBS and medical checks on their drivers, and the reporting procedures for alleged criminal offences in their cabs.

The best solution all round is for Uber to start taking the regulations serious, actually complying with them, and then they don't have to worry about losing their license. It surely cannot be too much to ask that uber have proper reporting procedures for if someone is assaulted in one of their cabs.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I think it's excellent news, hopefully it will lead to a reduction in the number of vehicles on the road. If you walk around most central London roads it seems that the majority of vehicles are PHVs, even in suburban London at times of the day in every other vehicle you can see the PHV license stuck on the window! I remember driving to work on Boxing day and noticing how most vehicles on the North Circular were PHVs.

I think only once in the last few years have I booked a Taxi; I had just come out of a blood test and injection at the hospital and wasn't feeling up to use public transport so I used the Gett App. It cost me just less than £14 which is about the price my parents paid for an Uber journey the other year for a similar journey to St Pancras to my house (I was travelling from UCH which is just down the road).

It would be great if it did make a difference to the number of PHVs on the road.

Uber have grown the taxi market immensely. From a passenger perspective, they were (nearly) flawless - they've done a very good job of showing up the state the industry was in before, at least when it comes to customer service. The issue, apart from it being an unscalable mode of transport to start with, is that they've grown the number of drivers far out of proportion to the number of passengers - exacerbating London's traffic issues in quite an incredible way.

It's an interesting quirk of the labour market in this country that this was possible, and I'd be interested to see what effects come of unleashing all of these newly-displaced workers on the economy. A large number of them are otherwise unskilled.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

It's very noting that this isn't TfL throwing it's toys out of the Pram at the principle of a uber-style service being allowed in London, rather the specifics of Uber being shoddy and not meeting the minimum standards to run cabs in London. And these minimum standards are not massive protectionism for Black cabs, but rather very sensible requirements around DBS and medical checks on their drivers, and the reporting procedures for alleged criminal offences in their cabs.

However that is what Uber are trying to tell people the ban is about in their officially sponsored petition

https://www.change.org/p/save-your-uber-in-london-saveyouruber

This ban shows the world that London is far from being open and is closed to innovative companies, who bring choice to consumers and work opportunities to those who need them.

 

[Starmill]

Apart from tourists and those with reduced mobility, how many people really need to use taxis in London? Surely not enough to justify the current supply of taxis! It doesn't necessarily follow that this will reduce the supply of taxis but we do have to wonder why people are not using the abundant alternatives. Taking action on the crisis of rising bus journey times and the very low percentage of National Rail and London Underground stations that are truly accessible might be ways to ameliorate this, even if they are relatively small and likely to be very expensive. I have always thought public transport information was pretty good in London, but if there are still lots of tourists using taxis because it removes their need to do any work wayfinding then maybe that has something to do with it.

I was talking to a taxi driver registered with Manchester City Council recently who was complaining that all of the local Uber drivers were registered with Rossendale council, which not only costs them less but it allows them to get around the rules where they are only allowed to use black, white or silver cars.

 

[richw]

This has been my experience too, or at least the experience of female Uber users I've spoken to.

I believe the app has functionality to send details of a journey (including the driver's details) to a nominated friend of the rider. This is arguably a lot safer than getting into an anonymous minicab or even a black cab.

That said clearly the system is not foolproof given the allegations that have been made.

A female friend has made a Facebook posting to this effect.
She uses Uber, she knows all the details of the car and driver before it shows up and can share with a friend via the app. A black cab on the other hand she has none of these safety nets, other than the assurance that the driver has a clear DBS (CRB).
A clear dbs is meaningless. It just means there has been no conviction.

 

[Qwerty133]

Its certainly interesting to see the number of people on the left who are normally bleating on about how everyone should be entitled to a living wage, and how 0 hour contracts should be banned, have suddenly came out in support of Uber which exploits employment laws probably the most of any major company.

 

[jon0844]

The new CEO hasn't been getting unanimous support on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/dkhos/status/911321639953956864

 

[mirodo]

I wonder whether Uber will circumvent this "ban" by bribing a council such as Slough to become the Rossendale of the South

Unless I have misunderstood the situation, all taxi trade in London in licenced by TfL. There is no reciprocal acceptance of licences from other areas, as exists outside London. If you want to operate a taxi service in London, your only option is through TfL/the PCO.

 

[GusB]

Its certainly interesting to see the number of people on the left who are normally bleating on about how everyone should be entitled to a living wage, and how 0 hour contracts should be banned, have suddenly came out in support of Uber which exploits employment laws probably the most of any major company.

It would be interesting to see your evidence of people on the left who suddenly support uber. Any links to back up your claims?

 

[PermitToTravel]

Unless I have misunderstood the situation, all taxi trade in London in licenced by TfL. There is no reciprocal acceptance of licences from other areas, as exists outside London. If you want to operate a taxi service in London, your only option is through TfL/the PCO.

This is generally the case, with the exception that taxis licensed in (the rest of) England and Wales can operate as private-hires in London. I gather that in 2015 this was extended to all E&W PHVs being able to work anywhere in E&W, including London!

This is all in primary legislation, so not a right TfL can revoke - it would have to be done by Parliament

 

[Hornet]

TfL Statement.

Transport for London (TfL) has today (Friday 22 September) informed Uber London Limited that it will not be issued with a private hire operator licence after expiry of its current licence on 30 September.

TfL’s regulation of London’s taxi and private hire trades is designed to ensure passenger safety. Private hire operators must meet rigorous regulations, and demonstrate to TfL that they do so, in order to operate. TfL must also be satisfied that an operator is fit and proper to hold a licence.

TfL has concluded that Uber London Limited is not fit and proper to hold a private hire operator licence.

TfL considers that Uber’s approach and conduct demonstrate a lack of corporate responsibility in relation to a number of issues which have potential public safety and security implications. These include:

· Its approach to reporting serious criminal offences.
· Its approach to how medical certificates are obtained.
· Its approach to how Enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) checks are obtained.
· Its approach to explaining the use of Greyball in London – software that could be used to block regulatory bodies from gaining full access to the app and prevent officials from undertaking regulatory or law enforcement duties.

My bold re the last statement. Having software to inhibit the ability of the Regulators to do their jobs effectively is a bit sinister.

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...ber/licensing-decision-on-uber-london-limited

 

[47802]

This is generally the case, with the exception that taxis licensed in (the rest of) England and Wales can operate as private-hires in London. I gather that in 2015 this was extended to all E&W PHVs being able to work anywhere in E&W, including London!

This is all in primary legislation, so not a right TfL can revoke - it would have to be done by Parliament

I think you are wrong on that just so happens I was looking into driving for UBER (outside London) and went to one of their info sessions, and they stated you can operate anywhere in England and Wales except London if your not Licenced in London.

Now whether you think they offer a good deal to drivers is another matter but I do find some of Tfl concerns as a bit strange. Applications to the council for PHV licence are entirely up to the Driver, Uber has little to do with directly, the DBS check is done by the council so unless Uber are not checking driver paperwork properly, and getting a Medical exam sorted is up to the driver, unless Uber are suggesting some dodgy Doctor to go to for a medical but that certainly wasn't the case at the outside London Info session I attended.

 

[DelayRepay]

I'm not a huge Uber user in London but I do use them, and other taxi firms, in other towns and cities.

My female friends prefer Uber - they can see the details of the car in the app so know they're getting into the right one. They can have a friend track the journey, and if something bad happens the friend will be able to see where they are.

I like Uber because of their surge pricing. Seriously... before Uber started in Sheffield I remember having to walk home after a Christmas party because there were no black cabs or PHVs available for over 1.5 hours. With Uber, yes you pay more during periods of high demand but at least you can make a choice.

I also really, really like the fact there is no faffing about with cash at the end of the journey and receipts are emailed automatically.

I know some areas have minicab firms with similar features, but I can use the Uber ap in most of the towns and cities I go to.

On the subject of sexual assaults - it's not completely clear what the problem is but I know of two women who have (told me that they have) been sexually assaulted during a journey. On both occasions, this journey was on one of TFL's bus services not in an Uber or any other kind of taxi.

 

[Busaholic]

On the subject of sexual assaults - it's not completely clear what the problem is but I know of two women who have (told me that they have) been sexually assaulted during a journey. On both occasions, this journey was on one of TFL's bus services not in an Uber or any other kind of taxi.

Unless they were alleging assaults by the bus driver, which I think is exceedingly unlikely, then we're not really comparing like with like. Unfortunately sexual assaults can occur on any public transport, and as a boy using a Red Rover go-anywhere bus ticket getting on for sixty years ago I was assaulted on the top deck of a London bus, and that was one with a bus conductor present (but downstairs). I didn't feel then, and don't feel now, that London Transport were in any way to blame for the situation.

 

[agwuk1993]

It's a shame Uber has lost, and hopefully they will return.

I live in Plumstead and I vary rarely if at all see other forms of cabs (black or other) as being in Zone 4 is less attractive to them.

Sent from my MHA-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[AlterEgo]

It's a shame Uber has lost

It's not really a shame if they failed to comply with their licence conditions.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The Greyball software is why they've lost their licence, really. Uber said they don't use it and expect TfL to take their word for it, despite the fact they've claimed the same in other cities where the use of Greyball has been proven.

What Uber are doing with Greyball is no different to VW and their emissions software. I'm surprised Uber are getting such an easy ride about it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like Uber because of their surge pricing. Seriously...

I don't have a problem with it, it works on many levels. In many ways it works better than the clunky way the railway does the same thing with peak/off peak and Advances. A bit more like a dynamic way Oyster/contactless works (though while standing at the side of a Tube barrier for one minute to save a couple of quid I was amazed how few people actually paid attention!)

I also really, really like the fact there is no faffing about with cash at the end of the journey and receipts are emailed automatically.

This for me is the killer app. I've used taxis (minicab) far more since this feature has become the norm.

 

[richw]

The main reason cited is Ubers approach to DBS. Uber say they aren't involved in DBS checks. I believe that is correct. A driver applies for their private hire licence to TfL and must submit their DBS check with it. This part does not involve Uber as its between the driver and TFL.

 

[sng7]

Can I suggest everyone here reads this London Reconnections article. I belive it clears up a lot of why Uber has had its licence revoked in a straightforward non sensationalist manner.

 

[jon0844]

It was interesting to see that, presumably after legal and PR advice, Uber has backtracked a bit from its stance last week.

Who knows, maybe they'll actually take things seriously and buck up their ideas?

 

[Busaholic]

Can I suggest everyone here reads this London Reconnections article. I belive it clears up a lot of why Uber has had its licence revoked in a straightforward non sensationalist manner.

London Reconnections can always be relied on to throw light on whichever subject it writes about without, as you say, any sensationalist slant.

 

[radamfi]

London Reconnections says Uber (London) Ltd is the actual minicab firm which is responsible for the drivers and vehicles in London. But Uber operates in much of the South East outside the TfL area. Which Uber company or companies operate there?

 

[WestCoast]

London Reconnections says Uber (London) Ltd is the actual minicab firm which is responsible for the drivers and vehicles in London. But Uber operates in much of the South East outside the TfL area. Which Uber company or companies operate there?

It’s Uber Britannia Ltd outside Greater London and licenses are issued to drivers from a local authority unlike TfL in London. Well known in Greater Manchester that a lot of private hire drivers have licenses from Rossendale which are allegedly a bit easier to obtain.

 

[jon0844]

Not anything to do with Uber (or I don't think so), but I know that Luton only issue a certain number of licenses to drivers so a lot have come over to Welwyn Hatfield to get them.