UFN for boarding LNER train with Hull Trains Only ticket

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by tlv2019, 23 Dec 2019.

  1. tlv2019

    tlv2019 New Member

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    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/dec/18/train-rail-lner-penalty-mistake?CMP=share_btn_fb
    Interested to get peoples views on this article. Personally I don’t have a lot of sympathy and starting to get rather sick of this type of thing. People running to the press for something that happened because of their own stupidity.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 24 Dec 2019
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  3. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    I think I'm more concerned that the journalist has a poor grasp of what a UPFN is, and indeed how a penalty fare is calculated when your journey is to beyond the next station.
     
  4. kristiang85

    kristiang85 Member

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    Although it doesn't seem the case here, if the first was delayed for 5 minutes it would be an easy mistake for a less active rail user to make. We have a bizarre system in many ways, and assuming passengers are "stupid" is a bit harsh - especially as the restriction was not printed on the ticket.

    It is why I advocate an airline style identification system for trains using the codes that already exist, printed on both tickets and on station screens/ train displays. It will help avoid this kind of confusion.
     
  5. island

    island Established Member

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    The restriction will have been printed on the ticket. It will have said “valid only on the following Hull Trains service” and “09:24 Doncaster to London Kings X”.
     
  6. Hadders

    Hadders Fares Advisor

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    That could work for Advance tickets but how will it work for walk on tickets that are restricted by operator?
     
  7. Helvellyn

    Helvellyn Established Member

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    The amount of announcements that LNER staff make before departure from King's Cross about Grand Central and Hull Trains only tickets suggests this is a common issue.

    Only the other week I saw a couple try to blag it on the 08:30 to Newcastle having missed the 08:06 to Sunderland because they had overslept. Tucking into the complimentary Full English they were rather put out to be sold two new full price First Class tickets and advised to seek refunds from Grand Central for their unused walk-up tickets. As the Train Manager politely explained, "if I have booked an easyJet flight and miss it I don't expect British Airways to fly me for free in Club."

    The next day two guys coming down from York had jumped on an LNER service having missed their Grand Central service because they were getting coffee. Again rather put out to be sold full price First Class tickets but it was pointed out they had Grand Central walk-up tickets, which they said they knew but thought nobody would notice!
     
  8. AnkleBoots

    AnkleBoots Member

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    Interesting, in either case were they given the opportunity to get off at the next station and wait for the next Grand Central?
     
  9. AnkleBoots

    AnkleBoots Member

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    This is key to the story, is there definitely no type of ticket that would omit this restriction?
     
  10. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Some TVMs did (or may still do) not print the TOC restriction. So if their Hull Trains train was cancelled, taking the next train within the printed restrictions of the ticket may not be an unreasonable course of action.
     
  11. island

    island Established Member

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    But their Hull Trains train wasn’t cancelled, so this is moot.
     
  12. Darandio

    Darandio Established Member

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    In the latter case the next station would be Kings Cross anyway.
     
  13. MPotter

    MPotter On Moderation

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    If the restriction wasn't printed, then surely the ticket is legally valid on any TOC?
     
  14. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    For years LNER TVMs did not print the TOC restriction on Advance tickets. It only changed a few months ago.

    This meant that during disruption, it was easier to get your ticket accepted on another operators' train.
    Yes but only on the train specified.

    If there was no Hull Trains Only restriction printed on the ticket, as claimed, then LNER cannot charge more than the cost of the lowest price fare with Railcard discount. Boarding the wrong train company is 'punishable' with a full fare ticket (£110.50, with no Railcard discount).

    In this case the Super Off Peak Single was not valid for an 11:01 arrival (believe it or not!) so the Anytime was the appropriate fare. We don't know if the passenger held a Railcard or not, nor if they were travelling Standard or 1st. But if they were travelling in standard without a railcard then £107 is about the right amount, albeit slightly less than what I'd expect the charge to be.

    The article is absolutely awful though; the author is extremely confused and does not understand what penalty fares, fines, or unpaid fares notices are. However the quality of journalism, though dire, is consistent with expected standards (standards in journalism are almost as low as standards of customer service in the rail industry!)
     
  15. 175mph

    175mph Member

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    I had this issue in 2016 after a Eurostar I was on arrived late causing me to miss my booked service. When I took the next available one, a Grand Central service, the conductor pointed out my ticket wasn't valid but let me off without the need to buy another ticket after I mentioned my issue with the Eurostar.
     
  16. K.o.R

    K.o.R Member

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    "Only valid on trains with service numbers beginning HT".
     
  17. island

    island Established Member

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    At which point the media scream that to Joe Public a train is a train and he shouldn’t have to concern himself with “railway gobbledegook” like “service codes”, and you’re back to square one.
     
  18. MPotter

    MPotter On Moderation

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    That's true. It doesn't matter to the average passenger, how about just keeping that side of things as it is?
     

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