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UK face coverings discussion

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py_megapixel

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I think what's needed at this point is, more than anything, clarity.

I suspect many people who are not complying with lockdown rules - face coverings or otherwise - are doing so simply because they are excessively convoluted and seem to change every 5 minutes.

However since nobody in government seems to have a clue what they're talking about I guess we're stuck with this mess.
 
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philjo

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BBC news at 10 mentioned just now that the masks are compulsory for pupils and staff in some areas of secondary schools in local lockdown areas of England. In other areas it up to the school to decide.
 

trebor79

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I think what's needed at this point is, more than anything, clarity.

I suspect many people who are not complying with lockdown rules - face coverings or otherwise - are doing so simply because they are excessively convoluted and seem to change every 5 minutes.

However since nobody in government seems to have a clue what they're talking about I guess we're stuck with this mess.
TBH I'm completely fed up with it all. I don't really watch the news any more, and pay cursory attention to anything involving government and covid in the paper.
I pay no heed to any of the "rules", about distancing, use of transport, etc and simply comply with the law. Government says I have to put a piece of cloth over my face in Tesco. Depending upon my mood and how out of place I will feel not doing so, and how prepared I am to have a discussion if confronted (that hasn't ever actually happened, by the way), I will either put a piece of cloth over my face and live with the consequences or use my exemption. There is hand sanitizer at the entrance. I'm damned if I'm using it. I'm damned if I'm going to dance around the aisle to keep 2m or 1m+ or whatever from other people.
I'll comply with the law as I understand it but I'm afraid there is zero goodwill left in me for any voluntary measures, be they sensible or equally nonsensical as face coverings.
 

RomeoCharlie71

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BBC news at 10 mentioned just now that the masks are compulsory for pupils and staff in some areas of secondary schools in local lockdown areas of England. In other areas it up to the school to decide.
Yes that does seem to be the case, mandatory (not sure how mandatory - i.e. in classrooms as well as corridors?) in areas of local restrictions, optional in others.
 

Tetchytyke

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An interesting little article from the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine at Oxford University.

(My emphasis, not the authors')


Masking lack of evidence with politics
July 23, 2020

Tom Jefferson, Carl Heneghan

The increasing polarised and politicised views 1 on whether to wear masks in public during the current COVID-19 crisis hides a bitter truth on the state of contemporary research and the value we pose on clinical evidence to guide our decisions.

In 2010, at the end of the last influenza pandemic, there were six published randomised controlled trials with 4,147 participants focusing on the benefits of different types of masks. 2 Two were done in healthcare workers and four in family or student clusters. The face mask trials for influenza-like illness (ILI) reported poor compliance, rarely reported harms and revealed the pressing need for future trials.

Despite the clear requirement to carry out further large, pragmatic trials a decade later, only six had been published: five in healthcare workers and one in pilgrims. 3 This recent crop of trials added 9,112 participants to the total randomised denominator of 13,259 and showed that masks alone have no significant effect in interrupting the spread of ILI or influenza in the general population, nor in healthcare workers.

The design of these twelve trials differed: viral circulation was usually variable; none had been conducted during a pandemic. Outcomes were defined and reported in seven different ways, making comparison difficult. It is debatable whether any of these results could be applied to the transmission of SARs-CoV-2. Only one randomised trial (n=569) included cloth masks. This trial found ILI rates were 13 times higher in Vietnamese hospital workers allocated to cloth masks compared to medical/surgical masks, RR 13.25, (95%CI 1.74 to 100.97) and over three times higher when compared to no masks, RR 3.49 (95%CI 1.00 to 12.17). 4

In the study, the control group was asked to continue with their normal practices, which may or may not have included mask-wearing. Mask wearing was measured and documented for all participants, including the control arm. 170/458 (37%) used medical masks in the control arm, 38/458 (8%) used cloth masks, and 245/458 (53%) used a combination of both medical and cloth masks during the study period. *

After adjusting for other factors, ILI (RR=6.64, 95% CI 1.45 to 28.65) and laboratory-confirmed virus (RR=1.72, 95% CI 1.01 to 2.94) remained significantly higher in the cloth masks group compared with the medical masks group.

It would appear that despite two decades of pandemic preparedness, there is considerable uncertainty as to the value of wearing masks. For instance, high rates of infection with cloth masks could be due to harms caused by cloth masks, or benefits of medical masks. The numerous systematic reviews that have been recently published all include the same evidence base so unsurprisingly broadly reach the same conclusions. 2 However, recent reviews using lower quality evidence found masks to be effective. Whilst also recommending robust randomised trials to inform the evidence for these interventions. 5

Many countries have gone onto mandate masks for the public in various settings. Several others – Denmark, and Norway – generally do not. Norway’s Institute for Public Health reported that if masks did work then any difference in infection rates would be small when infection rates are low: assuming 20% asymptomatics and a risk reduction of 40% for wearing masks, 200 000 people would need to wear one to prevent one new infection per week. 6

What do scientists do in the face of uncertainty on the value of global interventions? Usually, they seek an answer with adequately designed and swiftly implemented clinical studies as has been partly achieved with pharmaceuticals. We consider it is unwise to infer causation based on regional geographical observations as several proponents of masks have done. Spikes in cases can easily refute correlations, compliance with masks and other measures is often variable, and confounders cannot be accounted for in such observational research.

A search of the COVID trials tracker reveals nine registered trials of which five are currently recruiting participants and one enrolling participants by invitation. 7 In Denmark, where masks are advised for those who break self-isolation to go out to take a test, a randomised trial including 6,000 participants is assessing reductions in COVID-19 Infection Using Surgical Facial Masks Outside the Healthcare System. In Guinea-Bissau in West Africa, the Bandim Health Project is leading a 66,000 person trial – although not yet recruiting – on cloth face masks.

The small number of trials and lateness in the pandemic cycle is unlikely to give us reasonably clear answers and guide decision-makers. This abandonment of the scientific modus operandi and lack of foresight has left the field wide open for the play of opinions, radical views and political influence.
 

Skimpot flyer

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Have they? Or is it that masks are mandatory in places where distancing is harder?
Because that’s, IMO, the very point in having masks - to reduce the risk in areas where distancing isn’t possible.
I reported on here my experience of shopping in a large Waitrose store the first weekend after face coverings were mandated.
Though there is and was ample space for people to keep 2m from each other when queueing to pay, there seemed a general misconception that coverings negated the distancing requirement. People in the queue were standing as they would before the coronavirus pandemic. I bloody knew it would happen, too!
 

185143

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I reported on here my experience of shopping in a large Waitrose store the first weekend after face coverings were mandated.
Though there is and was ample space for people to keep 2m from each other when queueing to pay, there seemed a general misconception that coverings negated the distancing requirement. People in the queue were standing as they would before the coronavirus pandemic. I bloody knew it would happen, too!
Agreed. I noticed whilst at work (not in retail) that before the muzzles were mandated, the vast majority of people who would speak to me would make a conscious effort to be 2m at least away from me.

The second the muzzle nonsense was introduced, that disappeared overnight and we went back to normal "distancing".
 

yorkie

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Secondary pupils in England will have to wear masks in school corridors in local lockdown areas of England, after the government reversed its guidance.
What does "have to" mean? What if a student refuses; can the school expel them?

What if a member of staff refuses? Would they have to be offered a redundancy package, or could the school simply sack them?

I do not believe that any staff have yet been forced to wear masks, other than those staff who already would have been (e.g. those who work in healthcare settings), e.g. shop workers and transport workers are exempt from the legislation.

Can staff be forced to do this, or would it count as a variation of their contract?

The Department for Education says that, for most areas of England, it is keeping its recommendation against using face coverings - but that schools will be able to make their own decision whether to ask pupils and staff to wear them.
If a school "asks" pupils and staff, in non-lockdown areas, they can refuse, without consequences, right?
 

Mojo

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This morning the government was saying that muzzles would not be compulsory in secondary schools, now this evening muzzles are almost certain to be compulsory in secondary schools..!

It’s the teachers I feel sorry for in this affair. In the position they are in, many, even those opposed, feel compelled to oblige.
 

trebor79

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If a school "asks" pupils and staff, in non-lockdown areas, they can refuse, without consequences, right?
Who knows? It's a knee-jerk from Boris so doubtless the finer details haven't even been pondered yet.
In Scotland Swinney has said no pupil will be excluded for non-compliance. Read into that what you will.
 

kez19

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I'm sick of hearing politicians and media use terms like "growing body of evidence" "increasing evidence" when what they mean is they have seen social media pressure groups demanding they implement X.

Yet evidence maybe provided "later" a la Sturgeon...

Agreed. Whilst I don't support every decision that Sturgeon has made, she has shown dedicated leadership throughout the pandemic and has been crystal clear with her messaging (despite the u-turn on exam results and the care home debacle). I'm not following the decisions made in Wales so can't comment on Drakeford.

Bozza on the other hand, relies on the media and Twitter to inform the public, and lets the unions, media and vocal minority make the decisions.


Yet you could argue one minute she says something like following the science to then flipping over to say its her "judgement" but if things go tits up ... deflect blame... She may not be exactly on the same wavelength as Boris but if problems are caused by her she doesn't own up to it, its passed to others.

Just a minor pick up on one thing you mentioned: care homes - it wasn't long ago she was clapping for carers to then hear Jeane Freeman throwing carers under a bus in terms of how Covid affected care homes etc and to have Police Scotland involved when its clear it was their decision alone on procedures (per se).

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/jeane-freeman-admits-care-home-22572390 - stepping down? (strange/coincedence?)
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/care-home-workers-coronavirus-could-22034398 - May 15 2020

I can't find the article I speak of but I do remember at the time reading it but was angry about it, yet its in a way governments own policy but its OK pass the buck and blame others though...

Who knows? It's a knee-jerk from Boris so doubtless the finer details haven't even been pondered yet.
In Scotland Swinney has said no pupil will be excluded for non-compliance. Read into that what you will.


I wonder how long that will last and they do a U turn on that? (expel pupils for not wearing masks)
 

bramling

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What does "have to" mean? What if a student refuses; can the school expel them?

What if a member of staff refuses? Would they have to be offered a redundancy package, or could the school simply sack them?

I do not believe that any staff have yet been forced to wear masks, other than those staff who already would have been (e.g. those who work in healthcare settings), e.g. shop workers and transport workers are exempt from the legislation.

Can staff be forced to do this, or would it count as a variation of their contract?


If a school "asks" pupils and staff, in non-lockdown areas, they can refuse, without consequences, right?

Regarding transport staff, some operators seem to be making it mandatory for staff to wear them in “public-facing areas”.

I don’t think this has really been tested to destruction, as no one wishes to rock the boat that much, especially as everyone knows it’s a “be seen to be setting an example” thing than anything else. So in reality it seems staff who wish to wear them are doing so, and those who don’t aren’t. BTP would not be interested.
 

Andyh82

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I think we all know how it would have gone if Boris hadn't "U-turned"

By Friday we'd have the BBC News interviewing parents saying they aren't sending their kids back because its unsafe and a headteacher saying they aren't reopening their school, and suddenly it'd all spiral out of control like opening schools in June did

We'd have Scotland, Wales, London, Labour, Unions, Social media, Piers Morgan, random experts and the TV and print media all pro-masks, and Boris and 'the tories' against masks.

Much easier to just give in, at least it means schools definitely will go back
 

37424

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What does "have to" mean? What if a student refuses; can the school expel them?

What if a member of staff refuses? Would they have to be offered a redundancy package, or could the school simply sack them?

I do not believe that any staff have yet been forced to wear masks, other than those staff who already would have been (e.g. those who work in healthcare settings), e.g. shop workers and transport workers are exempt from the legislation.

Can staff be forced to do this, or would it count as a variation of their contract?


If a school "asks" pupils and staff, in non-lockdown areas, they can refuse, without consequences, right?

Well at the company I work when the Shop reopens wearing of Masks will be required by staff unless exempt or stationed behind a perspex screen as part of the companies revised Health and Safety Policy, therefore anyone who refuses could be subject to a disciplinary action for breaching company H&S although in practice I doubt that would happen at my place they would simply get moved to where they don't need a face mask, but presumably if is part of a School policy then the same could apply to Teachers.
 

bramling

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I think we all know how it would have gone if Boris hadn't "U-turned"

By Friday we'd have the BBC News interviewing parents saying they aren't sending their kids back because its unsafe and a headteacher saying they aren't reopening their school, and suddenly it'd all spiral out of control like opening schools in June did

We'd have Scotland, Wales, London, Labour, Unions, Social media, Piers Morgan, random experts and the TV and print media all pro-masks, and Boris and 'the tories' against masks.

Much easier to just give in, at least it means schools definitely will go back

You may well be right that having once again allowed himself to be boxed into a corner this was probably the lesser of two evils, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good outcome.

Boris just isn’t getting buy-in, and that’s concerning. If he presented a well-evidenced position in the first place then this wouldn’t keep happening, time after time.

Well at the company I work when the Shop reopens wearing of Masks will be required by staff unless exempt or stationed behind a perspex screen as part of the companies revised Health and Safety Policy, therefore anyone who refuses could be subject to a disciplinary action for breaching company H&S although in practice I doubt that would happen at my place they would simply get moved to where they don't need a face mask, but presumably if is part of a School policy then the same could apply to Teachers.

Yes I think it’s much easier just to move people than discipline. The railway has the perennial issue that you can’t readily move staff around that easily, especially at the moment when there’s multiple issues going on in the background.
 

RomeoCharlie71

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Well at the company I work when the Shop reopens wearing of Masks will be required by staff unless exempt or stationed behind a perspex screen as part of the companies revised Health and Safety Policy, therefore anyone who refuses could be subject to a disciplinary action for breaching company H&S although in practice I doubt that would happen at my place they would simply get moved to where they don't need a face mask, but presumably if is part of a School policy then the same could apply to Teachers.
Would it be acceptable to be mask-less if distanced by 2m+ from customers? I know this is the stance that a few independent retailers are taking near me.
 

37424

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Would it be acceptable to be mask-less if distanced by 2m+ from customers? I know this is the stance that a few independent retailers are taking near me.&S
I doubt it this is blanket policy from Head Office to wear a face mask possibly on the grounds that might not always be possible to maintain 2m distance.
 

Huntergreed

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Would it be acceptable to be mask-less if distanced by 2m+ from customers?

Whilst I am exempt, I do often try to make some conscious effort to wear a mask when people are less than 2m away from me, just to try and show good manners more than because I believe it does anything. Technically you should have it on at all times according to the letter of the law regardless of distance however (aren’t staff exempt anyway though?)
 
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initiation

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Masking up in schools.... Another turn on the ratchet, no backwards movement. I'm really hopeful I am wrong but middle of September will be the next change with more places requiring masks, then wider use at schools. Workplaces will start to appear in discussion again...Outdoor spaces? :( This is all depressing.

I've been avoiding physical shops as much as I can the last month but this last week have had to go 4 times.

1 - big supermarket -100% compliance amongst shoppers inside, most staff not wearing
2 - Tesco 'express' - I was on the phone for a bit in the car before going in and there seemed to be >90% compliance from the 10-15 people who went in while I was chatting/watching
3 - petrol station shop as no contactless at the pump - 50/50%
4 - car parts shop on an industrial estate, 0 of the 5 others I saw inside. All staff were wearing one.

I will venture over the bridge into Wales again for my next big shop to avoid masking up. Hopefully they can resist the mask activists.
 

py_megapixel

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Agreed. I noticed whilst at work (not in retail) that before the muzzles were mandated, the vast majority of people who would speak to me would make a conscious effort to be 2m at least away from me.
I'm getting slightly fed-up of people calling masks "muzzles"
A muzzle is an object used to prevent an animal from opening its mouth. That is not what masks are for. The only reason people use the term "muzzle" to describe a face covering is to create immediate and unjustified prejudice against them.

The second the muzzle nonsense was introduced, that disappeared overnight and we went back to normal "distancing".
This is a genuine concern, however. It needs to be made clearer that while masks can be helpful in the correct circumstances, they aren't a replacement for social distancing.
 

AM9

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I'm getting slightly fed-up of people calling masks "muzzles"
A muzzle is an object used to prevent an animal from opening its mouth. That is not what masks are for. The only reason people use the term "muzzle" to describe a face covering is to create immediate and unjustified prejudice against them. ...
I commented a few weeks ago and it largely stopped. It seems that those with nothing to contribute to the conversation have fallen back to peurile misnomers again. :rolleyes:
 

talldave

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I'm getting slightly fed-up of people calling masks "muzzles"
A muzzle is an object used to prevent an animal from opening its mouth. That is not what masks are for. The only reason people use the term "muzzle" to describe a face covering is to create immediate and unjustified prejudice against them.
There's perhaps slight irony in that observation. Those of us who consider masks to be pointless certainly feel that we're unable to open our mouths to be heard. You can't have a rational debate with a maskivist because they default to ranting "you're killing people".
 

Bantamzen

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Does it matter what people call them, coverings, masks, muzzles, random bits of cloth? No name or description gets away from the growing suspicion that masks are a political solution to a biological problem. And every new decision, U-turn and bluster this (and indeed other) government makes, the less scientific it all becomes, especially when the science doesn't back them up, and indeed might actually be contrary to the decisions.
 

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I don’t think this has really been tested to destruction, as no one wishes to rock the boat that much, especially as everyone knows it’s a “be seen to be setting an example” thing than anything else. So in reality it seems staff who wish to wear them are doing so, and those who don’t aren’t. BTP would not be interested.

As it's not the law, BTP aren't relevant, it is a matter of company policy. Whether the TOCs would risk upsetting the Unions by enforcing that I don't know, probably not.
 

yorkie

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Tetchytyke

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I'm getting slightly fed-up of people calling masks "muzzles

It's a pejorative term, of course. It's probably best avoided to avoid precisely these sorts of arguments, but it's clearly just a pejorative term. Nothing more.

It's interesting how pro-mask people latch on the pejorative term rather than address the actual criticism that a) there is no evidence masks work and b) they are a political decision not a scientific one.
 

py_megapixel

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It's interesting how pro-mask people latch on the pejorative term rather than address the actual criticism that a) there is no evidence masks work and b) they are a political decision not a scientific one.
I am, for what it's worth, not pro-mask. I just appear so because for some reason this forum is fanatically anti-mask!

My stance is that I really don't care about shops or public transport. I don't mind wearing a mask but I wouldn't feel unsafe not doing so.
However I think doing it in schools is a step too far.

I don't disagree that this is a political decision, and I wish the government would stop pandering to the Facebook "sovereign-citizen" brigade. Next they'll start telling the NHS to get rid of the advice to have children vaccinated. It's infuriating.

I will, of course, gladly change that opinion if it comes out that masks are the glorious magical solution we've all been waiting for to get everyone back to normal. But I can't see that happening.
 

talldave

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I am, for what it's worth, not pro-mask. I just appear so because for some reason this forum is fanatically anti-mask!
As I've said before, I believe that's because the average IQ on here is way above Facebook level and intelligent people challenge requirements that have no evidence or associated metrics to support them.

My stance is that I really don't care about shops or public transport. I don't mind wearing a mask but I wouldn't feel unsafe not doing so.
However I think doing it in schools is a step too far.
Again, everyone has a breaking point. Government have cleverly drip fed the ramping up of requirements to make each increment seem less unpalatable. Sadly for them, the endless U turns involved have destroyed any credibility they had.
 

Tetchytyke

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I am, for what it's worth, not pro-mask. I just appear so because for some reason this forum is fanatically anti-mask!

Apologies, it wasn't a direct criticism of you, just a more general point.

I don't disagree that this is a political decision, and I wish the government would stop pandering to the Facebook "sovereign-citizen" brigade. Next they'll start telling the NHS to get rid of the advice to have children vaccinated. It's infuriating.

I will, of course, gladly change that opinion if it comes out that masks are the glorious magical solution we've all been waiting for to get everyone back to normal. But I can't see that happening.

I don't like masks, and I'm immensely grateful we don't have to wear them here.

But I think I have the same view as you.

If proper science proves that masks make an appreciable difference then I will change my opinion. But as the CEBM point out, there isn't much evidence and the evidence that does exist suggests they make no difference whatsoever.

It's easy to say "but what's the harm?" but masks can be distressing for people with mental health problems, some disabilities like autism, and not to mention survivors of rape. I had to laugh last week at a friend who argued to me "what's the harm in mandating them?" then, in the next breath, was busy lamenting stories of disabled people and rape survivors being abused in public for not wearing a mask.

FWIW I agree with Sweden, who say they think masks will make no difference and may actually make things worse by reducing hand washing and social distancing, and by making people touch their face more. In fairness there's no scientific evidence for that position either, and is "what I reckon" too.
 
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yorkie

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It's easy to say "but what's the harm?" but masks can be distressing for people with mental health problems, some disabilities like autism, and not to mention survivors of rape. I had to laugh last week at a friend who argued to me "what's the harm in mandating them?" then, in the next breath, was busy lamenting stories of disabled people and rape survivors being abused in public for not wearing a mask.
Agreed. I suspect that some school staff will consider resigning if this is forced upon schools and is combined with other measures that don't put children first (and don't allow staff to make the difference they normally would do)
FWIW I agree with Sweden, who say they think masks will make no difference and may actually make things worse by reducing hand washing and social distancing, and by making people touch their face more. In fairness there's no scientific evidence for that position either, and is "what I reckon" too.
Indeed. Sweden, who do not mandate masks, are now doing rather well compared to countries like France and Spain, who do.
 
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