Ukraine-Where will it end?

[DownSouth]

Although I'm keeping an open mind on the matter, there is absolutely no evidence to indicate that Ukraine shot down MH017: it was almost certainly done by pro-Russian separatists who mistook it for a military transport plane. Kiev had no reason to have surface-to-air missiles in that area, because the rebels don't have aircraft.

There is also nothing in the New Straits Times saying that the Malaysians believe Ukraine did it, so I don't know where you got that from. There is an article in yesterday's edition which quotes the defence minister as saying that the aircraft was definitely shot down by a BUK missile, although he said it was still unclear who fired it.

I agree that keeping an open mind on the matter is a good idea. Remember that the USA is involved in this (as the hand behind the fascist coup that installed the current Ukrainian government) as well as Russia, so all possibilities have to be treated as realistic.

It would certainly have been a rather easy false flag operation to pull off, when the Ukrainian military has the same SAMs as the Russians, the same radios as the Russians, and a ready excuse for why it couldn't possibly have been them. It would be a little too messy for CIA to do themselves, but ideal for the Academi mercenaries they contract for the wet jobs and who we know were on the ground during the fascist coup.

Has Malaysia made any official complaint that bears out what you state to the United Nations ?

I can't see such a complaint to the Useless Nations by Malaysia being worth the bother. The right-wing government in the Ukraine is a US client state, and the US have a long tradition of using their veto power in the Security Council to protect their client states.

 

[Johnuk123]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ow-the-West-lured-Ukraine-into-its-orbit.html

For months the West has been demonising President Putin, with figures such as the Prince of Wales and Hillary Clinton comparing him with Hitler, oblivious to the fact that what set this crisis in motion were those recklessly provocative moves to absorb Ukraine into the EU.
One of my readers heard from a Ukrainian woman working in Britain that her husband back home earns €200 a month as an electrician, but is paid another €200 a month, from a German bank, to join demonstrations such as the one last March when hundreds of thousands – many doubtless entirely sincere – turned out in Kiev to chant “Europe, Europe” at Baroness Ashton, the EU’s visiting “foreign minister”.

Nothing surprising there at all.

 

[Jonny]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/10/ron-paul-mh17-plane-crash_n_5665996.html

Ron Paul Says U.S. 'Likely Hiding Truth' About MH17 Crash
The Huffington Post | By Dominique Mosbergen

The headline is pretty much self-explanatory - his point being that the US government knows more than it is telling the public.

Ron Paul:
"The U.S. government has grown strangely quiet* on the accusation that it was Russia or her allies that brought down the Malaysian airliner with a buck anti-aircraft missile [sic]," the former GOP presidential candidate wrote. "The little that we have heard from U.S. intelligence is that it has no evidence that Russia was involved. Yet the war propaganda were successful in convincing the American public that it was all Russia’s fault."

* - original article had transcribed as 'quite'

This is very similar to my own thoughts on the matter. Need I add anything to that?

 

[kylemore]

If the US had proof of what many here are happy to accept lacking any, namely that Russian backed seperatists had accidently shot down MH017 then it would be being DRUMMED DOWN OUR THROATS MORNING NOON AND NIGHT , 24/7 - IT WOULD BE RELENTLESS!

Instead of which an eloquent silence.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If the US had proof of what many here are happy to accept lacking any, namely that Russian backed seperatists had accidently shot down MH017 then it would be being DRUMMED DOWN OUR THROATS MORNING NOON AND NIGHT , 24/7 - IT WOULD BE RELENTLESS!....Instead of which an eloquent silence.

What proof can you produce to show who were the exact miscreants in this particular matter ?

As I have said before, Russia Today have their own agenda on all matters Ukrainian these days, but unlike you, I do not hold to what they say as fact, noting that I also do not believe that any of the Western media give an impartial view on such matters.

 

[Butts]

What proof can you produce to show who were the exact miscreants in this particular matter ?

As I have said before, Russia Today have their own agenda on all matters Ukrainian these days, but unlike you, I do not hold to what they say as fact, noting that I also do not believe that any of the Western media give an impartial view on such matters.

It is my belief Russia Today is far more likely to tow the official "Russian Line" than Western Media are with their respective Countries

Why have no parts of the missile been sourced yet to establish it's origin ?

 

[Oswyntail]

Likewise

If Russia had proof of what many here are happy to accept lacking any, namely that Ukraine had accidently shot down MH017 then it would be being DRUMMED DOWN OUR THROATS MORNING NOON AND NIGHT , 24/7 - IT WOULD BE RELENTLESS!

Instead of which an eloquent silence.

 

[ainsworth74]

Why have no parts of the missile been sourced yet to establish it's origin ?

Well there won't be much left as these types of missiles normally explode into tiny razor sharp fragments shortly before impact to increase the size of the 'kill zone' of the missile.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With regard to the Russian humanitarian convoy, it does seem to have a rather large number of vehicles in it. Why can it not be totally taken over by the Red Cross at the border and then let them see what items are contained within it when they distribute what is being carried by the vehicles.

 

[21C101]

With regard to the Russian humanitarian convoy, it does seem to have a rather large number of vehicles in it. Why can it not be totally taken over by the Red Cross at the border and then let them see what items are contained within it when they distribute what is being carried by the vehicles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9lmCpIzhFo

Sorry - couldn;t resist it

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The situation reminds me of a very old joke where the Russian police suspected a Polish lorry driver of smuggling items across the border into Russia from Poland in the days when Communism meant few luxuries but for three years, despite stopping him and thoroughly searching his vehicle every week, nothing was found. In the end, the police said....
"We give up, just let us know what it is that you are smuggling and we won't bother you"....to which the reply was "lorries"


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Noting the claims and counter-claims that Russian forces in a small military convoy have entered then departed from the border of Eastern Ukraine, what would be gained by this at the same time when the Russian humanitarian convoy is said to be stuck at the border.

 

[Johnuk123]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sion-Eastern-Europe-says-British-general.html

Nato would not be able to stop a Russian invasion of Eastern Europe because of years of military cuts, one of Britain’s top generals has warned.

‘If Nato is serious about this, it is going to have to rearm, it is going to have to rebuild capability. European nations are going to have to put their hands in their pockets to spend more money on defence.’

 

[kylemore]

Yes and no doubt the aforesaid General will not turn down a nice earning "Consultancy" with BAE or whoever when he retires as reward for his part in persuading the countries in question to spend Billions re-arming to counter this non-existent "Threat".

The only force that's "Invaded" Eastern Europe is NATO itself!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The only force that's "Invaded" Eastern Europe is NATO itself!

So you now contend from what I read into your quote above that it was NATO forces that conjoined with the separatists in Eastern Ukraine to take over the coastal town of Novoazovsk earlier today and that the separatist spokesman was being untruthful when he claimed that Russian soldiers "on holiday leave" are assisting them.

 

[kylemore]

So you now contend from what I read into your quote above that it was NATO forces that conjoined with the separatists in Eastern Ukraine to take over the coastal town of Novoazovsk earlier today and that the separatist spokesman was being untruthful when he claimed that Russian soldiers "on holiday leave" are assisting them.

You're an intelligent guy so I'm sure you know that I'm referring to the west's agreement with Russia at the time of German re-unification not to expand NATO (to quote Mikhail Gorbachev) "as much as a thumb's width further to the East".
Although the agreement is disputed there's plenty of evidence for it (the US Ambassador to Moscow at the time admits it), to say that it has been comprehensively reneged upon is an understatement.

 

[21C101]

From the Hungarian media thanks apparently to a Hungarian Rail Enthusiast (Google Translation)

http://www.hidfo.net/2014/08/12/hul...segi-harckocsik-utban-az-ukrajnai-haboru-fele

"SOLD FOR THE PRICE OF SCRAP ARMY TANKS - ON THE WAY TO THE WAR IN UKRAINE

A vigilant reader sent in the following photos, which were made in Nyíregyháza railway station on August 2. According to the information provided on the trains headed Záhony, which crossed the state border to the Ukraine. The photo is interesting that these T-72 ever for the average stock of Hungarian Army tanks are visible.
"

This weeks claims made by the Ukraine government of Russia invading them, repeated pretty well as fact by the Uk media, were made, I recall, based on T72 tanks being used which the Russians have but the Ukraine supposedly dosent.

Indeed the BBC wrote this on Thursday:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28961080

"Ukraine crisis: T-72 tank shoots hole in Russian denial

Russia has consistently denied sending tanks into Ukraine, arguing that any vehicles used by separatist forces there must have been captured from the Ukrainian army itself.

But now experts at the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) in London have told the BBC that they have identified a Russian tank in a separatist column in eastern Ukraine that they say could only have come from across the border in Russia.
"

Oh dear. When will our leaders learn that this sort of propaganda does not work in the era of ubiquitous smartphones and ubiquitous electronic means of publishing their pictures.

 

[kylemore]

Oh dear. When will our leaders learn that this sort of propaganda does not work in the era of ubiquitous smartphones and ubiquitous electronic means of publishing their pictures.

Unfortunately it does work

They rely on most people going no further than the headline - and most of the time they can!

 

[Monty]

Well according this Russian website Hungary has recently sold 58 T-72s to the Czech Republic. These tanks have been purchased by a defence contractor and are in need of heavy refurbishment before seeing further use, the article does indeed muse that these tanks may end up in Ukraine but also concedes it would be difficult to deliver them.

It makes little sense for the Ukrainian MOD to buy refurbished T-72s from a third party, not when they have nearly 1,200 T-72s of their own in storage from former Soviet Army stocks and have their own tank factories that could do the work so they wished. The T-80UD and the T-64BU are the main tank types used by their army. They also have a very small number of T-84s (but I doubt they would want to risk these prized assets being captured and so far have not been deployed).

 

[kylemore]

Well according this Russian website Hungary has recently sold 58 T-72s to the Czech Republic. These tanks have been purchased by a defence contractor and are in need of heavy refurbishment before seeing further use, the article does indeed muse that these tanks may end up in Ukraine but also concedes it would be difficult to deliver them.

It makes little sense for the Ukrainian MOD to buy refurbished T-72s from a third party, not when they have nearly 1,200 T-72s of their own in storage from former Soviet Army stocks and have their own tank factories that could do the work so they wished. The T-80UD and the T-64BU are the main tank types used by their army. They also have a very small number of T-84s (but I doubt they would want to risk these prized assets being captured and so far have not been deployed).

Your Tinfoil hat is in the post!

 

[ainsworth74]

Well according this Russian website Hungary has recently sold 58 T-72s to the Czech Republic.

Is that a T-34 they're using as an illustration of a T-72!?

 

[Monty]

Your Tinfoil hat is in the post!

On the contrary 21C101's previous post would seem to suggest that the Ukrainians were purchasing equipment from Hungary, yet a Russian media outlet (who so far seem to write the opposite of whatever their western counterparts report) openly admits a large number of tanks have been sold to a Czech arms company instead and while it does speculate they could go to Ukraine they again admit this would be difficult because of the resale restrictions the Hungarian government has placed on them and also because of the lack of a border between the Czech Rep and Ukraine.

So in short the idea the Ukrainians are buying rusting tank hulks from Hungary is rather unlikely, meanwhile some of the tanks the separatists are using appear to wear what looks like Russian army camouflage schemes.

Is that a T-34 they're using as an illustration of a T-72!?

Yup, obviously they were unable to find any stock images of a T-72.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am still amazed that Russia denies any knowledge of its armed forces being involved in Ukraine. Were those Russian paratroopers who were involved in a prisoner exchange this week just in Ukraine on a short-break holiday ?

Going off what separatist leaders say about "Russian troops just helping out during their holidays" was it of any need for them to bring their tanks with them to celebrate their holidays ?

 

[ainsworth74]

You mean it isnt usual for troops to take all their heavy equipment with them when they go on 'holiday'?

 

[Monty]

Reminds me of these guys.

Condor Legion

The old tricks are the best aren't they?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You mean it isnt usual for troops to take all their heavy equipment with them when they go on 'holiday'?

Perhaps the EU could give "holiday leave" to troops from any EU nation to holiday in Eastern Ukraine, but only if they wear their "Butlin's Redcoats" blazers at all times...

 

[ainsworth74]

Perhaps the EU could give "holiday leave" to troops from any EU nation to holiday in Eastern Ukraine, but only if they wear their "Butlin's Redcoats" blazers at all times...

Well if you listen to a certain member who posts on this thread that's already happening (though without the fetching red coats)

 

[Aictos]

NATO hasn't invaded a sovereign country though, Russia has - in any case the recent additions to NATO were sovereign countries who decided to do so of their own bidding not because they were forced to join.

Russia by encouraging the Rebels to cause trouble in much the same way that Nazi Germany encouraged the German Minorities in the former Czechoslovakia to agitated for autonomy causing the Sudeten Crisis in 1938 but of course Russia is innocent in all this :roll:

The best thing for all is for Russia to withdraw beyond it's borders with ALL troops and allow a force of UN Peacekeepers to do their job formed of countries that are neutral and have no bias to either Russia or to NATO.

I mean if it's alright for Russian troops "on holiday" to assist the rebels then surely it's alright for NATO troops "on holiday" to do the same and assist the Kiev Ukrainian Government as the rightful Government in power in resolving law and order.

 

[kylemore]

As the very courageous female member of the Ukrainian Parliament put it "Any Government that shells it's own civilians is Criminal".

We see nothing of this criminal activity on our precious BBC.

The "legitimate" government of Ukraine are war criminals and deserve the ultimate fate of such.

 

[Aictos]

As the very courageous female member of the Ukrainian Parliament put it "Any Government that shells it's own civilians is Criminal".

We see nothing of this criminal activity on our precious BBC.

The "legitimate" government of Ukraine are war criminals and deserve the ultimate fate of such.

And the rebels are little angels? :roll: The rebels are the ones who started this whole sorry mess with the backing of their Russian paymasters who ignore Ukrainian law and hold fixed elections.

 

[kylemore]

CEASEFIRE!

Have the War Criminals in Kiev been brought to their senses?

Lets hope so.

If the price of the deal is that the aforesaid War Criminals are not brought to Justice then I suppose that's a price worth paying.