UK's highest heritage railway line speed

[8A Rail]

The Great Central.

I think this is the only preserved line in the country were it is allowed to operate passenger trains at (max) 40 mph. Partially to do with the fact it is double line for the majority of the GCR line.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Great Central is cleared for 60, although not sure if this is for passenger service or only testing.

Many preserved lines don’t want to go any faster as 25mph means that the average customer gets ‘more’ of a journey.

Coincidentally this month’s Rail Express has an editorial pondering whether preserved lines should have higher speeds to allow passengers to experience diesel locos in their full glory.

Most lines do day tickets, so at 60-70mph you'll get more rides to and fro, and theoretically more bang for your buck.

 

[paul1609]

I think this is the only preserved line in the country were it is allowed to operate passenger trains at (max) 40 mph. Partially to do with the fact it is double line for the majority of the GCR line.

25 mph is the maximum speed that's allowed for passenger workings on heritage railways under the ROGS legislation it allows amongst other things a reduced safety case. The only heritage railway that has a full safety case is the nymr but I believe that it's normal maximum operation is now 25 mph on the Whitby Branch as part of its CDL derogation. The costs are such that no heritage organisation is ever going to operate faster than 25 mph imho.

 

[Flying Phil]

I think this is the only preserved line in the country were it is allowed to operate passenger trains at (max) 40 mph. Partially to do with the fact it is double line for the majority of the GCR line.

This is not true.
The GCR is restricted by the Light Railway order, as all other heritage railways, to 25mph for passenger carrying. It has only been the TPO operation (non passenger carrying), and private testing contracts that run faster, and then only on a limited stretch of line around Quorn to Swithland.

 

[alf]

25 mph is the maximum speed that's allowed for passenger workings on heritage railways under the ROGS legislation it allows amongst other things a reduced safety case. The only heritage railway that has a full safety case is the nymr but I believe that it's normal maximum operation is now 25 mph on the Whitby Branch as part of its CDL derogation. The costs are such that no heritage organisation is ever going to operate faster than 25 mph imho.

I have just googled and read the 24 paragraphs of the 2006 ROGS
regulations & cannot find any reference to a 25 mph max speed for heritage railways.
Can paul1609 explain his reference above?

A small increase in the 25 mph limit would be very useful at a few specific locations on heritage lines.

For example Bluebell steam trains going south down the short 1 in 60 bank after summiting south of East Grinstead have to apply the brakes several times to hold the speed to 25mph.
A Bluebell driver friend reckons if the brake was left off speed would drift to 30 to 32mph by coasting freely & this would allow the train to run to Kingscote platform without applying any power from just before the summit.
This would save coal, smoke & CO2 pollution, brake & tyre wear & save possibly 30 secs as well as giving a more relaxing journey.

 

[12LDA28C]

Most lines do day tickets, so at 60-70mph you'll get more rides to and fro, and theoretically more bang for your buck.

Apart from hardcore 'mileage' fanatics, I doubt most heritage railway passengers are that bothered about getting as many return trips in as possible. They just want to enjoy a sedate trip through the countryside behind a steam engine or whatever their preferred traction is.

 

[paul1609]

This is not true.
The GCR is restricted by the Light Railway order, as all other heritage railways, to 25mph for passenger carrying. It has only been the TPO operation (non passenger carrying), and private testing contracts that run faster, and then only on a limited stretch of line around Quorn to Swithland.

Although some heritage railways are limited to 25 mph by their light railway order not all railways are now wholly operated under light railway orders. The over reaching 25 mph limit comes from ROGs http://www.orr.gov.uk/media/21748

I have just googled and read the 24 paragraphs of the 2006 ROGS
regulations & cannot find any reference to a 25 mph max speed for heritage railways.
Can paul1609 explain his reference above?

A small increase in the 25 mph limit would be very useful at a few specific locations on heritage lines.

For example Bluebell steam trains going south down the short 1 in 60 bank after summiting south of East Grinstead have to apply the brakes several times to hold the speed to 25mph.
A Bluebell driver friend reckons if the brake was left off speed would drift to 30 to 32mph by coasting freely & this would allow the train to run to Kingscote platform without applying any power from just before the summit.
This would save coal, smoke & CO2 pollution, brake & tyre wear & save possibly 30 secs as well as giving a more relaxing journey.

If you read table 2 Duties of ROGS applying to different railway systems. The third category is " Non Mainline railways not operating in excess of 25mph (40 kph) eg heritage railways. That category only requires full safety certification for operations on the mainline (amber box). Any heritage railway that wanted to operate in excess of 25 mph would require full safety certification from the ORR that would be prohibitively expensive to achieve and not financially viable.

 

[Forty29]

Great Central is cleared for 60, although not sure if this is for passenger service or only testing.

Many preserved lines don’t want to go any faster as 25mph means that the average customer gets ‘more’ of a journey.

Coincidentally this month’s Rail Express has an editorial pondering whether preserved lines should have higher speeds to allow passengers to experience diesel locos in their full glory.

Maybe as previously mentioned on cwr type track like the GCR cleared for 60 mph, but most heritage railways haven't good enough track to cope with higher speeds. As they haven't got the finances to upgrade it, you're looking at a recipe for disaster. Higher costs all round for track and locomotives.

 

[Western 52]

I guess any heritage railway wanting to run above 25mph would also face higher insurance premiums?

 

[Jozhua]

It would be cool to see a heritage railway run at higher speeds, but then a fair few steam locos are also run at high speed on the national network itself.

The A1 Tornado built in 2008 has reached 102mph on the ECML and has been previously cleared to run at 90mph on revenue services. Pretty impressive stuff.

My understanding is that there is a "very light railway" classification most heritage railways operate under, that has a limit of 25mph. To go over this increases scrutiny on training, track inspections, signalling, rolling stock, etc.

The balance for heritage rail seems to be to run services onto the mainline so people can experience older rolling stock at speed, with heritage rail being a part of the journey.

I'm sure a heritage railway could run at higher speed, but they'd probably have to run some sort of regular passenger/freight service to generate the revenue.

 

[12LDA28C]

The balance for heritage rail seems to be to run services onto the mainline so people can experience older rolling stock at speed, with heritage rail being a part of the journey.

Which heritage railways 'run services onto the mainline so people can experience older rolling stock at speed'? The NYMR operate to Whitby but even then they are speed restricted.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Once you exceed 25 mph, there is a huge increase in cost and regulation to allow that - it's a nice idea, but simply not viable.

 

[Jozhua]

Which heritage railways 'run services onto the mainline so people can experience older rolling stock at speed'? The NYMR operate to Whitby but even then they are speed restricted.

There was a fair few services that ran onto Peak Rail during my time living in the area once the national rail connection was re-established.

Nothing regular - one off specials.

 

[12LDA28C]

There was a fair few services that ran onto Peak Rail during my time living in the area once the national rail connection was re-established.

Nothing regular - one off specials.

So you're referring to mainline charter operators running trains onto a heritage line via a mainline connection, not the heritage line running trains onto the main line. There's a big difference.

 

[778]

Once you exceed 25 mph, there is a huge increase in cost and regulation to allow that - it's a nice idea, but simply not viable.

I have read on another forum that one of the heritage railways wanted to increase the 25 mph speed limit and asked the Railway Inspector. The Railway Inspector said that the speed limit would not be increased, but he was happy for some railways to occasionally run at 40 mph as long as thier track and bridges were in good condition. The reason he did not want to raise the speed limit raised was that if it was increased to 40 mph, some railways would occasionally go at 60 mph which would not be acceptable. I agree with that, because sometimes common sense is more important than the letter of the law.

I am not sure how the crew can be certain how fast they are going if there is no speedometer on the loco. I think that at least a few mph leeway should be given. No driver should be thrown off the footplate for running at 26 mph.

 

[Cowley]

Am I right in thinking that some railways have a type of black box style recorder that uploads speed data anyway?

I thought maybe the Mid Hants, West Somerset and Great Central Railways might be some that had that?

 

[WagonLocoCrew]

It's my understanding that preserved locomotives that are mainline certified need a speedometer and data recorder. 45212 has a speedo, I believe it also has a data recorder too.

 

[Trainfan344]

GCR have a sign on Quorn bridge which states trains may pass at up to 75mph and advertise this as such on their website.

Testing and training at the GCR | Great Central Railway – The UK's Only Main Line Heritage Railway

 

[hexagon789]

GCR have a sign on Quorn bridge which states trains may pass at up to 75mph and advertise this as such on their website.

Testing and training at the GCR | Great Central Railway – The UK's Only Main Line Heritage Railway

I thought it was effectively a differential - i.e.:

Steam was limited to 60mph
But diesel could do 75mph

 

[paul1609]

Twentys Plenty:

 

[fireftrm]

The limit on Heritage Railways is 25mph, there will always be some leeway if speed checked as the speedometers on heritage stock may not be accurate, some don't have any at all. But the ORR would be very interested if there was excessive speeding, indeed one Inspector said 'any speed that starts with 30 is of great concern to us'. As for GWVillager's DMU driver, well he is/was risking the licence of the Heritage Railway "explained that the restriction is only approximate or something along those lines and it is therefore permissible to exceed it if not significantly" - he is not only wrong he is dangerous as he clearly does not follow rules.

Many Heritage Railways now have GPS transponders/trackers on their trains, usually in the guard's van. These can be used to show the speed the train was travelling. That the data exists means the ORR can request it if they have reason.

 

[kje7812]

Many Heritage Railways now have GPS transponders/trackers on their trains, usually in the guard's van. These can be used to show the speed the train was travelling. That the data exists means the ORR can request it if they have reason.

Just curious which ones?

 

[paul1609]

Just curious which ones?

Theres two that have GPS train position indicators that I know of, provided by a occasional poster/ lurker on heres company system. However that provides the data remotely by GSM so staff know where the trains are. As its spot updating I dont think the system can provide the data that the firetrm thinks it can but to be fair my information is somewhat out of date. Ill have to go to that Diesel Gala near Poole Harbour again this year for an update.

 

[Egg Centric]

Let's say a heritage railway fancied higher speeds. Would TPWS or tripcocks be cheaper, TCO wise?

 

[Bedpan]

ISTR that when the first section of the Mid-Hants Railway (Watercress Line) reopened in 1977(?), the inspecting officer, Major Peter Olver, passed the line for a maximum speed of 40 mph/65 kmh under certain circumstances. I'm open to correction on that and it may no longer apply. (Full disclosure: I am a life member of the Mid-Hants Railway Preservation Society).

I thought the idea of 40mph was suggested in the original Winchester Junction to Alton plan, proposing to run the railway as an "ordinary" railway providing a public service during the week and as a preserved railway at weekends. All this came to nothing due to the failure of the share issue which only raised enough money to reopen from Alresford to Ropley and buy the remainder of the track bed from Ropley to Alton.

 

[Bevan Price]

Don't ask me where, but quite a few years ago, my GPS indicated that a diesel loco briefly touched 59 mph on a heritage line. Timings were compatible with that speed having been attained.

 

[fireftrm]

Theres two that have GPS train position indicators that I know of, provided by a occasional poster/ lurker on heres company system. However that provides the data remotely by GSM so staff know where the trains are. As its spot updating I dont think the system can provide the data that the firetrm thinks it can but to be fair my information is somewhat out of date. Ill have to go to that Diesel Gala near Poole Harbour again this year for an update.

There are more than that with GPS tracking fitted. It cannot deliver spot reports of speed, note I didn't say it could! But it can show the time between two points so can demonstrate averagee speeds. To be fair so can a TRB and these have been used to provide evidence of excess speed on railways.

 

[John Luxton]

Don't ask me where, but quite a few years ago, my GPS indicated that a diesel loco briefly touched 59 mph on a heritage line. Timings were compatible with that speed having been attained.

A few years ago at a line that has a few DMUs I was in the rear car and could see the speedometer - was definitely at 40 along a nice straight bit. Unless of course the speedometer isn't accurate in the trailing car?

 

[Enthusiast]

A few years ago at a line that has a few DMUs I was in the rear car and could see the speedometer - was definitely at 40 along a nice straight bit. Unless of course the speedometer isn't accurate in the trailing car?

Surely it would have been minus 40!

 

[paul1609]

There are more than that with GPS tracking fitted. It cannot deliver spot reports of speed, note I didn't say it could! But it can show the time between two points so can demonstrate averagee speeds. To be fair so can a TRB and these have been used to provide evidence of excess speed on railways.

The manufacturer of the system that I mentioned in my previous post advises me that they are currently installing their 3rd system and are in negotiationswith the 4 th and 5th railways for their installs. The position indication of the train will be updated every second following an update that is due this year which will give a far more accurate instantaneous speed.