Unable to produce digital railcard - reported for prosecution

[Andyjs247]

My daughter and her sister travelled to Bristol from home in Bicester; this was on 3 June. She bought a return ticket to Bristol with the 16-25 railcard discount (the railcard being the digital version held in the railcard app on her phone).

Once in Bristol she went shopping and also upgraded her mobile phone, trading in the old one. On her return journey at Temple Meads station she asked a member of GWR staff what platform she needed for her train. They asked to see her ticket but at this point was unable to produce the railcard as it wasn't possible to access it via the app on her new phone. What happened then was that her return ticket was confiscated and she was issued with a zero fare ticket to Bicester in exchange to complete her journey along with a business card sized card entitled “Reported for prosecution - what happens next” explaining that GWR Prosecutions Department would be in touch via letter. She has since been able to re-download the Railcard app and has been able to use it as normal since. Ironically, her digital railcard has now expired this week.

Now, almost 12 weeks later she has at last received a response from GWR with a pre-court settlement offer. It has been reported that she travelled from Bicester to Bristol without a valid ticket or valid railcard. The letter is dated 22 August and she has until 12 September to respond. Advice please on how best to respond.

 

[Huntergreed]

Unfortunately, as your daughter has been caught without a railcard, she did not hold a valid ticket for travel (which is a strict liability offence, meaning if the case went to court she would likely be found guilty under the railway byelaws).

As much as I hate to say it, my advice would be simply to pay the settlement. It may seem a lot and feel like a “fine”, but it isn’t. It’s a sum paid to the TOC to close the matter, and given the risk of a prosecution (which would likely succeed) in this instance, it seems best to simply pay the settlement.

If you want, you can write to the TOC and send evidence of the railcard which was valid at the time. This may be accepted, but as not being able to produce one invalidates the ticket, there has technically been an offense committed and this may have little success. Given you’ve been offered a settlement (which isn’t always done, a TOC can proceed straight to prosecution if they wish), my advice would sadly be to pay it and close the matter, albeit an unfortunately expensive lesson for your daughter (and another example of why digital railcards are so terrible!)

 

[Snow1964]

Don’t panic, Someone will be along soon to offer more advice.

Just to be clear (please confirm or correct) the outward journey was Bicester to Bristol, and at that stage had the old phone with railcard. The phone was upgraded in Bristol, and subsequently couldn’t show the railcard.

The letter specifically states (again, please confirm or correct) that journey without a valid ticket was outward journey Bicester-Bristol, and not the return journey Bristol-Bicester.

Finally would help if you can clarify if the digital railcard was valid for those dates and has subsequently been copied to the new phone. (EDIT ignore this, just spotted this is stated in opening post)

My initial thought, is would need to write a concise letter stating did have a railcard, sending a copy of it, but there was delay in it being copied to the phone (enclose a copy of phone upgrade receipt with date and time), and hadn’t even commenced the return journey at the time the ticket was taken off her.

It is a problem with digital railcards, don’t copy over automatically, and apparently don’t work on last day of validity. So the cardboard version is by far superior (assuming don’t forget it)

 

[Dai Corner]

What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare?​

If you are travelling by train on a ticket with a Railcard discount, you must travel with your valid Railcard. If you forget your Railcard you will either be required to buy a new ticket or you may on certain services be liable for a Penalty Fare. However, a train company will normally allow you to claim back this extra expense on the first occasion in each year where this happens.

Each train company will have their own process for doing this. You will need to provide proof of your Railcard and either the original and additional tickets that you have purchased, or if you have not yet paid, details of the notice to pay or notice of Penalty Fare. Where you have already paid for additional tickets you should contact the relevant train company’s customer services department; in the case of a notice to pay of notice of Penalty Fare, you should follow the instructions included on how to challenge or appeal the charge.

What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare? - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

She should be let off its the first time she's been unable to produce her railcard

 

[AlterEgo]

GWR are probably the most pragmatic train company to deal with in England when it comes to ticket irregularities.

As a first step, I would send a letter saying:

- sorry that you were unable to produce your railcard
- explain why
- apologise for the inconvenience
- and ask, politlely, for the matter to be overlooked as a one-off gesture of goodwill, given most instances of being unable to produce a railcard will ordinarily result in a Penalty Fare or extra ticket to be cancelled.

@Dai Corner has posted the policy but it is worth noting that the policy applies only to Penalty Fares or extra tickets, not to passengers reported for prosecution, so you will be relying on their even-handedness and discretion.

 

[Andyjs247]

Don’t panic, Someone will be along soon to offer more advice.

Just to be clear (please confirm or correct) the outward journey was Bicester to Bristol, and at that stage had the old phone with railcard. The phone was upgraded in Bristol, and subsequently couldn’t show the railcard.

The letter specifically states (again, please confirm or correct) that journey without a valid ticket was outward journey Bicester-Bristol, and not the return journey Bristol-Bicester.

Finally would help if you can clarify if the digital railcard was valid for those dates and has subsequently been copied to the new phone. (EDIT ignore this, just spotted this is stated in opening post)

My initial thought, is would need to write a concise letter stating did have a railcard, sending a copy of it, but there was delay in it being copied to the phone (enclose a copy of phone upgrade receipt with date and time), and hadn’t even commenced the return journey at the time the ticket was taken off her.

It is a problem with digital railcards, don’t copy over automatically, and apparently don’t work on last day of validity. So the cardboard version is by far superior (assuming don’t forget it)

Yes, her outward journey was Bicester to Bristol and she did have her old phone with valid railcard and a valid ticket. The letter mentions travelling from Bicester Village to Bristol Temple Meads without a valid ticket or railcard for that journey. It doesn't mention anything about a return journey to Bicester.

I've told my daughter to keep notes of everything that happened on the day and to keep screen shots from the railcard app. Her railcard expired on 21 August. I believe she was cautioned also.

 

[MotCO]

Yes, her outward journey was Bicester to Bristol and she did have her old phone with valid railcard and a valid ticket. The letter mentions travelling from Bicester Village to Bristol Temple Meads without a valid ticket or railcard for that journey. It doesn't mention anything about a return journey to Bicester.

I've told my daughter to keep notes of everything that happened on the day and to keep screen shots from the railcard app. Her railcard expired on 21 August. I believe she was cautioned also.

If the 'charge' is for not being able to produce a railcard for Bicester Village to Bristol (i.e. the outward journey when the rail card was produced), surely the defence is that she did show the railcard. Can the TOC then come back and change the 'charge' for Bristol to Bicester Village?

 

[Haywain]

Can the TOC then come back and change the 'charge' for Bristol to Bicester Village?

Yes.

 

[NorthWestRover]

But didn't they confiscate the ticket before she travelled and give her a zero fare ticket? Could she not just have bought a new ticket? When did she ever travel without a valid ticket?

 

[Ediswan]

If the 'charge' is for not being able to produce a railcard for Bicester Village to Bristol (i.e. the outward journey when the rail card was produced), surely the defence is that she did show the railcard. Can the TOC then come back and change the 'charge' for Bristol to Bicester Village?

I have a different interpretation. The interaction with staff in Bristol was before the passenger identified the correct platform, let alone boarded a train. Was any byelaw broken for that return journey ?

My suspicion is that as no railcard could be shown for the return journey, GWR have assumed none was held/available on the outbound journey, and are intentionally looking at prosecuting for that outbound journey.

 

[RPI]

Reply with a screenshot of the railcard, the letters from GWR have a note at the bottom that states something along the lines of that if this is a bout a railcard then please send us a copy.

 

[Gloster]

Presumably she had passed through the barriers when the situation arose, although I wonder why they asked to see her ticket and railcard at that point. If it was inside the barriers, then I presume that that technically counts as travelling. If it was at the barriers then the railway’s action strikes me as excessive, although possibly still legal. If it was before the barriers I would have thought it probably was not legal.

Note: I am a non-expert and may have misunderstood something.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

In terms of advice, the bad news is that the law recognises that prosecutors can make procedural mistakes: so my view is that trying to rely on prosecution irregularities to make the problem go away probably won't succeed.

The good news though is that while the rules about forgetting/mislaying a Railcard are quite tightly written, what we have seen here is that in practice they are interpreted quite broadly. It seems to me that an apologetic letter with a photo showing that at the time a valid Railcard was held (although not shown) is quite likely to get GWR to drop the matter.

 

[John Palmer]

The fact that GWR's prosecutions department has not alleged an offence in relation to travel from Bristol to Bicester suggests that it does not consider that an offence in connection with such travel had yet been committed. Since the OP's daughter was at the stage of enquiring as to the platform for her train, she can scarcely have committed a Byelaw 18 offence of entering a train without a ticket valid for travel. The possible alternative of alleging an offence under Section 5(3)(a) Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (attempting to travel with intent to avoid payment of the fare) would have to overcome the difficulty that the OP's daughter had already paid her fare.

So far as travel from Bicester to Bristol is concerned, I cannot see from the OP's account that any offence has been committed. I'm surprised by GWR's immediate recourse to a report for prosecution, and wonder whether there was anything about the interaction that prompted what, at face value, appears to have been heavy handed response from the official concerned. The more so if the OP's daughter had explained at the time that the phone on which she had been able to display her railcard had just been exchanged for a new one to which the card had not yet been downloaded. The pragmatic and customer-friendly response would have been to offer her the opportunity to re-download the card to her new phone, warning her that if she was unable to do so before boarding her train she would need to buy an undiscounted ticket. What precluded that course from being taken?

I agree that the OP's daughter should send GWR a screenshot of her railcard, so demonstrating that she was entitled to a discounted fare for her journeys between Bristol and Bicester.

 

[Hadders]

I agree with @Dai Corner and @AlterEgo I would contact GWR and explain what happened. It is the policy of the rail industry to allow someone who is not able to show their railcard one opportunity a year to produce it at a later date, and not be penalised.

I would anticipate this yielding a positive outcome, unless there is more to the case that we don't know about.

 

[Turtle]

My daughter and her sister travelled to Bristol from home in Bicester; this was on 3 June. She bought a return ticket to Bristol with the 16-25 railcard discount (the railcard being the digital version held in the railcard app on her phone).

Once in Bristol she went shopping and also upgraded her mobile phone, trading in the old one. On her return journey at Temple Meads station she asked a member of GWR staff what platform she needed for her train. They asked to see her ticket but at this point was unable to produce the railcard as it wasn't possible to access it via the app on her new phone. What happened then was that her return ticket was confiscated and she was issued with a zero fare ticket to Bicester in exchange to complete her journey along with a business card sized card entitled “Reported for prosecution - what happens next” explaining that GWR Prosecutions Department would be in touch via letter. She has since been able to re-download the Railcard app and has been able to use it as normal since. Ironically, her digital railcard has now expired this week.

Now, almost 12 weeks later she has at last received a response from GWR with a pre-court settlement offer. It has been reported that she travelled from Bicester to Bristol without a valid ticket or valid railcard. The letter is dated 22 August and she has until 12 September to respond. Advice please on how best to respond.

Having just purchased a new smartphone I sympathise. Two days on and I'm still having problems updating certain apps. With hindsight it's easy to say she should have considered this but in practice people assume that transferring apps and data from old to new phones is smooth and straightforward. Mostly it is but many finance related apps need individual resetting. As I've mentioned before The Railway is still operating 19th/20th century legislation in the third decade of the 21st century.There has been no pecuniary loss and there should be no financial penalty in these circumstances.

 

[Western Sunset]

What I come away with in this thread is don't change your smartphone part way through a journey. I'm sure the OPs daughter will be fine, with the "forgotten railcard once" procedure.

 

[jon0844]

You can change phone, but just remember to reinstall the app and login! Likewise get your banking app set up, Google/Android Pay and so on.

I'm surprised staff wouldn't allow someone to do that before travel. It doesn't take long.

Don't phone shops help migrate the data before you leave anymore? It's getting harder and harder for shops to stay in business as more people shop online, so that's one essential service and justification for visiting a store.

 

[John Palmer]

I don't regard the 'forgotten railcard' policy as being applicable to this case at all. As expressed in railway documentation, and in particular NRCoT, it is nothing more than a contractual entitlement to refund on one occasion in any 12 month period of a fare or penalty fare paid as a result of being unable to present a railcard due to forgetting to bring it on a journey. If the industry does have a broader policy of allowing the traveller one opportunity per annum to period to produce a railcard at a later date, then it's a policy from which GWR have, in this case, apparently chosen to depart by threatening prosecution in relation to the Bicester to Bristol journey.

Any such policy is, in effect, a 'two strikes and you're out' policy for any 12 month period, so, if the OP's daughter asks for it to be applied to her case then for the next twelve months she will be at risk if, for any reason, she finds herself unable to display her railcard on her phone and thus at a disadvantage relative to other railcard holders.

For whatever reason GWR have seen fit to accuse the OP's daughter of travelling from Bicester to Bristol without a valid ticket or railcard. I cannot see how such an accusation is borne out by the circumstances the OP reported: his daughter had purchased and held a ticket for that travel to the price of which an appropriate discount was applied that reflected the railcard already held. En route to Bristol that railcard was available for production on the phone then being carried.

In these circumstances some pushback against GWR's accusation is warranted. I think the OP's daughter should write/email GWR's prosecutions department with a copy of the railcard held for the purposes of the Bicester-Bristol journey. She should point out that the discount applied to the confiscated ticket now in GWR's hands was validated by the digital railcard that was available for production on the phone she was carrying whilst travelling to Bristol, though this was not the same phone as she was carrying when interviewed by the Temple Meads official. She should invite GWR's prosecutions department to confirm that in those circumstances no offence was committed as alleged and that, having paid her fare for travelling from Bicester to Bristol, the matter is at an end. She might add that if, notwithstanding her explanation, GWR still regard a ticketing offence as having been committed, she wishes to have details of the particular offence being alleged and the facts on which GWR relies as showing it to have been committed, so that she can further consider her position.

Since the letter received from GWR's prosecution department makes no reference to the return journey from Bristol to Bicester, it is unnecessary to make any reference to it in the OP's daughter's response.

(Gibberish edited out)

 

[gray1404]

She needs to write back to the train company showing evidence of her railcard as it is allowed to forget your Railcard once in a 12-month period.

I think the rail member of staff that reported house in reasonable given that she had not meant to travel at the time. She should have been given an opportunity to sort out a Railcard issue or purchasing my ticket and not be immediately reported for prosecution given travel have not commenced.

She was also not in a compulsory ticket area and I think the member of staff concerned does need some refresher training.

 

[Andyjs247]

Thank you for all the responses. Daughter thinks that she spoke to the wrong person basically; someone who has been less than helpful. She had approached a member of staff (who turned out to be a Revenue Protection Officer) to enquire about the correct platform and as part of the conversation was asked ‘Can I see your tickets please?’

Having bought a new phone earlier in the day I guess it didn’t occur to wait until the all the apps had downloaded before leaving the store. Actually the railcard app did download later, in fact whilst she was sitting on the train at Temple Meads before departure. But by that time she had been reported for prosecution and had her ticket confiscated.

It seems Wi-Fi was available on the train but the app hadn’t/wouldn’t download where they spoke to the RPI as there was no Wi-Fi at that particular part of the station; only 4G or whatever was available which was insufficient despite having plenty of data remaining.

She should maybe have been given an opportunity to access Wi-Fi to retrieve the railcard as well as the opportunity to purchase a non-railcard discounted ticket.

The letter from GWR quotes an outstanding fare of £52.55 plus GWR’s charges and doesn’t mention how it is calculated, or the basis on which they intend to prosecute.

In response to GWR, as well as providing the photographic evidence of the railcard held I think we should at least challenge the lack of opportunity provided to purchase an alternative ticket.

 

[gray1404]

In the letter to GWR you need to mention the phrase forgotten Railcard policy and try to trigger this. This is where a Railcard holder is allowed to forget it once in a 12 month period.

To report a customer in a non compulsory ticket area before they have commenced travel or are even on the train is wrong as no offense has been committed at that point.

 

[Haywain]

Thank you for all the responses. Daughter thinks that she spoke to the wrong person basically; someone who has been less than helpful. She had approached a member of staff (who turned out to be a Revenue Protection Officer) to enquire about the correct platform and as part of the conversation was asked ‘Can I see your tickets please?’

Had she passed through the ticket barriers at this point?

 

[Andyjs247]

Had she passed through the ticket barriers at this point?

Yes she had.

The ticket barrier did flag up “seek assistance” but she was allowed through by gateline staff.

 

[Snow1964]

This sounds like bad luck, spoke to wrong person, after passing through barriers, who decided to do a spot ticket inspection, at a random part of the station somewhere between the barriers and train, and at the point of inspection the digital railcard wouldn’t display.

However as soon got to a Wi-Fi connection, and before train left it did display.

As far as I can see there is no case of not buying a ticket (it was already bought), there is no case of travelling without a valid ticket (weren’t travelling at that stage), no case of trying to defraud the railway. The only case is unable to produce railcard when requested whilst somewhere between barriers and platform.

I would agree with others, and strongly and concisely write pointing out held a railcard, but were not given able to produce it quickly and should be treated as the once a year unable to produce it per forgotten railcard policy. If appropriate add that it had always been shown with valid ticket when requested on the outward journey Bicester-Bristol which is the journey cited in their letter. Then add a single short sentence that can they please confirm matter is now settled and closed.

I would not mention the change of phone in your reply, it will complicate things. Just stick to the whilst asking directions wasn’t expecting to need railcard and so wasn’t able to produce it quickly approach. Aiming to use the not able to show railcard as reason to drop it.

For the record, I have no idea how they get to an outstanding fare of £52.55, especially as in old days a check at a random location on a station only needed a platform ticket which cost a few pence.

 

[RPI]

Yes she had.

The ticket barrier did flag up “seek assistance” but she was allowed through by gateline staff.

If she had passed through the barriers then she had attempted to travel, not being able to show a railcard could have been dealt with by excessing the ticket which at the time would have left her out of pocket up until a refund was given, or by taking details and reporting the matter as done here, allowing an opportunity to present the railcard at a later date. I wonder if you could post a copy of the letter, with any personal details redacted?

 

[Snow1964]

If she had passed through the barriers then she had attempted to travel, not being able to show a railcard could have been dealt with by excessing the ticket which at the time would have left her out of pocket up until a refund was given, or by taking details and reporting the matter as done here, allowing an opportunity to present the railcard at a later date. I wonder if you could post a copy of the letter, with any personal details redacted?

Also blank out any reference numbers and dates, just in case some enthusiastic person in the prosecutions team reads this.

 

[Western Sunset]

There seems to have been quite a few instances on here recently of folk having dificulty in showing (or as the old GWR would have said, "shewing") their valid railcards, when on a smartphone. The approaches taken seem to differ between individual staff and the different TOCs as to regards how long customers are given to produce their card and what help (if any) is offered to help them display it.

Is there anything explicitly covering the holding and display of tickets/railcards on such smartphone devices in the NRCoT? Does there need to be an update to account for the wide use of smartphones and other devices nowadays? Do staff need to be trained to help customers more over this? Does there need to be a more consistent approach?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't assume it was a conspiracy to check the ticket. It is the right practice, when someone asks which train is where, to ask to see the ticket so they give the correct advice. There have been lots of cases on here of people being directed to invalid trains because this didn't happen.

 

[RPI]

There seems to have been quite a few instances on here recently of folk having dificulty in showing (or as the old GWR would have said, "shewing") their valid railcards, when on a smartphone. The approaches taken seem to differ between individual staff and the different TOCs as to regards how long customers are given to produce their card and what help (if any) is offered to help them display it.

Is there anything explicitly covering the holding and display of tickets/railcards on such smartphone devices in the NRCoT? Does there need to be an update to account for the wide use of smartphones and other devices nowadays? Do staff need to be trained to help customers more over this? Does there need to be a more consistent approach?

Its already covered, ultimately its the passengers responsibility to show the railcard and to ensure that their device has sufficient charge and data in order to do so.

The main issues seems to be when people obtain a new phone and a new activation code is needed, I'll talk people through the process on their device as its quite simple but a little long winded.

The issues come where for example a parent has bought a railcard for their child, the child has bought a new phone and they don't know the login details for their account, its these instances where there's no real option but to issue a Penalty Fare/UFN/MG11 to give an opportunity for the railcard to be sorted and produced at a later date.

With the exception of the 26-30 railcard all are still available as a physical railcard so anyone not up to scratch with tech should probably opt for one of those.

I wouldn't assume it was a conspiracy to check the ticket. It is the right practice, when someone asks which train is where, to ask to see the ticket so they give the correct advice. There have been lots of cases on here of people being directed to invalid trains because this didn't happen.

Absolutely, if anyone asks for a train I'll generally ask which type of ticket they have in order to point them in the right direction.