Unfair fare rises

[yorkie]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7166663.stm

Watchdog condemns rail fare hikes

A consumer watchdog has labelled looming above-inflation rail fare rises "unfair and unjustified".

While regulated fares, which include most season tickets, are going up by an average of 4.8% from Wednesday, other fares are set to rise by more than 9%..... [Click here to read the rest of the article]

The worst offenders are:

* CrossCountry, who have disgracefully put unregulated fares up by a shocking 7%, despite their trains being overcrowded and no sign of them putting their HSTs into service.

* East Midlands Trains, who have also put fares up by 7%. Plus they abolished free tea/coffee in standard class. I suspect just about all of their regular customers would rather be back with the old MML company. I see they have also abolished EMT+Connections tickets from Leeds, replacing them with EMT only, this means that you cannot get advance purchase tickets on this route apart from at the extreme hours of the day.

* Farce TransPennine Express have kicked their passengers in the teeth by going back on their promise of having 6-car trains, by putting 2-car trains on services to Hull and very, very few trains in the peak are 6 car. There are less seats available in 185s than 158s so they promised lengthening but instead they make people stand AND PAY 6.4% more!

* National Express East Coast pretended to be a friendly company by giving us free wifi in standard, but they are charging us 6.6% more for their tickets, thus negating the goodwill they originally showed.

* 'one' have put fares up by 6.8%, and it's probably best to leave it to NickW to find some suitable comments for them!

George Muir has come up with a rather silly statement "These fares rises help reduce the burden on taxpayers", which is absolutely absurd given that all they are going to do is force people onto the roads, and putting more people on the roads actually results in higher 'hidden' costs such as healthcare (for people injured, also more pollution = higher rate of asthma etc).

Happy new year from the TOCs... NOT!!!

 

[Tom]

Liking the 'non-regulated rise' of 4.3% compared to the regulated rise of 4.8% on SWT... :mrgreen:

 

[yorkie]

Liking the 'non-regulated rise' of 4.3% compared to the regulated rise of 4.8% on SWT... :mrgreen:

I don't know how these averages are calculated, but someone told me that SWT are putting up fares like CDRs but not SuperOffPeak fares, in attempt to get people to use them?

I was told by one commuter how there are about 4 different prices for his journey in the morning, before 0930 it's full price, then after 0930 it's a CDR, then after 1000 it's a railcard discounted CDR, then after 1100(?) it's a SuperOffPeak. Oh, and the full price ticket is extortionate.

 

[Mojo]

Don't blame it all on the TOCs, the Government has a stated aim to transfer the majority of railway costs from the taxpayer over the next few years. The DfT don't see how it works in practice.

FGW have recently increased the costs of seasons from Pilning to Temple Meads by over 9%, a weekly ticket now priced at £21.80. Valid on a grand total of 2 trains per week

My monthly season is also up over 9%, but from my next renewal I shall be entitled to a 10% Passenger Charter discount.

 

[37412]

Has this affected the price of Rovers, what is an East Mids retailing at these days??? :-?

 

[Tom]

I don't know how these averages are calculated, but someone told me that SWT are putting up fares like CDRs but not SuperOffPeak fares, in attempt to get people to use them?

I was told by one commuter how there are about 4 different prices for his journey in the morning, before 0930 it's full price, then after 0930 it's a CDR, then after 1000 it's a railcard discounted CDR, then after 1100(?) it's a SuperOffPeak. Oh, and the full price ticket is extortionate.

I heard the same - for the former that's not at all true.

And erm, when are they travelling (that commuter) - and are you talking about arrivals into Waterloo? Generally when CDRs become available railcard discounts become available on most RCDs, but of you can of course get some discounts on all of them subject to minimum fare. If its CDR after 0930, then SOP will be 1130 - as SOP arrival time is 1200 at Waterloo.

 

[Metroland]

I still dispute the Government's official rate of inflation. Things have gone up massively recently, especially food. And most people's biggest expense - housing - isn't included in the inflation figures.

If they wanted to reduce the burden on Tax payers they shouldn't have privatised it in the first place.

 

[class 313]

First Capital Connect 4.8% 4.8%

 

[Max]

First Capital Connect 4.8% 4.8%

Count yourself lucky, compared to the other TOCs thats fairly low! Nice to see Northern's rises aren't too high. Aren't NX East Coast advance fairs remaining the same? I'm sure this was promised in promo material. I presume this means fares such as CDRs are suffering the large rises.

The TPE rises are just disgraceful. The service has actually worsened considerably in the last 12 months with pokey, uncomfortable 2 car units. I actually try to avoid them now and travel on Northern.

 

[DescendingSadly]

Then you complain people use aeroplanes and other forms of transport

 

[87015]

No wonder fares have to rise when "the railway" (as a system) continues to make utter cock-ups over blockades with Rugby overrunning AGAIN...How many billions have been wasted in these parts of both farebox and taxpayers money on "improving" the WCML?? WCRM - What a complete farce from start to finish, whenever that might be.....

 

[Metroland]

Then you complain people use aeroplanes and other forms of transport

Probably because Britons fly more per head than anywhere else in the world, nearly twice as much as the states. We have ever more rising road traffic, and have the most expensive trains and buses in the world.

I do find it amusing that people think we have an option to deal with climate climate, which if the IPCC's 6 degree warming by the end of the century happens it means nearly all life on the planet with be extinct. Further more, as world oil production probably peaked in 2005, you would think we should be moving to sustainable energy sources and more sustainable transport. But no. Instead, we fiddle while Rome burns, run 4 car trains instead of 12, have a railway that is 5 times more expensive that it was because of ideology, and seem to be generally getting it wrong - as usual.

 

[Guinness]

Nationalisation anybody?










*runs*

 

[pedned]

I know this is slightly off topic but any can anyone please tell em if the Network West Midlands child n-network day tripper is still £3.10 as advertised on the NWM website, or if it has gone up?

 

[Max]

This is a PTE fare, so I presume that this is independant of normal fare regulations, and therefore doensn't have to change on the same date?

 

[Kneedown]

I suspect that people wouldn't mind the fare hikes so much if they actually had an improved service!

I can only speak from an EMT point of view, the service has actually got worse. I fully appreciate that we have to give them a chance to sort out the mess that NX left Central trains in, but even a firm committment to improving the overcrowding situation with appropriate rolling stock, instead of panicking and bringing in even more clapped out, unreliable 153's and 158's, that make even the ex-Central units look good, would give many people renewed hope, instead of our current view of "More of the same".

At the minute, people are certainly going to be paying more for a service that can only be described at best as no better than the previous operator, and no prospect in sight of things getting any better.

 

[pedned]

This is a PTE fare, so I presume that this is independant of normal fare regulations, and therefore doensn't have to change on the same date?

Thanks for that, had already bought one by the time I got a reply, but thanks anyway... it is indeed still £3.10

 

[Metroland]

Nationalisation anybody?

*runs*

I think quite honestly the solution is to privatise the bits that can stand on their own feet and nationalise the rest. Track and train should be re-united and companies should be in for the long haul. Perhaps the only place for regulation is London, because rail has such a high model share to the centre.

There is this media led obsession with monopolies that frankly don't exist. Rail companies are rarely in a monopolistic situation, with the bus, car and plane competing for traffic. I'm more concerned how National Express or Stagecoach can run rail lines and have competing bus routes. Especially when some of these companies have a history of dubious practices of running rivals into the ground.

Now time for a balanced article from aunty beeb.

As the New Year brings another above-inflation hike in rail fares in the UK, disruption and yet more delays, just why is travelling by train so costly in this country and do we get value for money?

A quick look on the ticket booking website the Trainline for 7 January and you only have to compare a standard journey between Rome and Naples (120 miles and £15) and Sheffield and Newcastle (112 miles, £43) to see the difference.

Likewise, on 9 January Paris to Toulouse (207 miles) costs £53, while London to Truro (232 miles) is £74.

Although of course, as every seasoned rail traveller knows, the true picture is a little more complicated.

Happy to travel before 7am and book in advance and a trip from Sheffield to Newcastle can be bought for £7. Likewise London to Truro can be £15.

According to Anthony Smith, chief executive of Passenger Focus, an independent public body which represents rail passengers: "Flexibility has become very, very expensive.

"We have moved towards an Easyjet railway without having much of a debate about it," he said.

Since the 1960s, UK rail has adopted a market-led system in place of a distance-led one.

Now passengers are not charged according to the length of their journey, but on "flow and yield", similar to the airlines, according to Edward Funnell, spokesman for the Association of Train Operating Companies (Atoc).

While Britain has some of the highest fares in Europe, it also has some of the cheapest, he said.

Two for one offers, groups savers and railcards, for example, mean train operators do offer value for money.

Which brings us to tax.

In France, according to 2004 figures from the private watchdog l'iFRAP, of the 16.3 billion euros (£12.1bn) it takes to run its rail network, 8.6 billion euros (£6.4bn) comes from its customers while the tax payer coughs up 7.7 billion euros (£5.7bn).

Government funds also pay for a 55 billion euros long-term debt and very favourable pensions for train drivers.

In the UK, in a 2007 White Paper, the government outlined plans to spend £2.5bn from 2009 to 2014, while it wants passenger contributions to rise to £9bn.

Says Edward Funnell, elements of the British model are now being "held up by the EU as a way to go".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7167821.stm

 

[Kneedown]

Now time for a balanced article from aunty beeb.

Now that would be a novelty!
There's more chance of delays and overcrowding being eliminated networkwide, reasonable fares, mass electrification and all linespeeds being upgraded by 100% than that happening! :razz:

 

[me123]

I think they have a point; flexability is very expensive. But many people can now commit to travelling on a certain service. I can book to Dundee for £12, which is about the same price in fuel as a car would use, and pay £20 for the Saver (with railcard). As I can't drive, and wouldn't want to drive to Dundee anyway, the Saver still represents value for money.

OK, I'm losing £8 in the process, but I'm not inconveniencing another person, I get to take whatever train I want (at hourly intervals, plus I can go via Edinburgh), I'm guaranteed a seat on two of those services.

In the past, the AP unflexible option has been my choice (this time, I wanted to ensure that I could get the later train should the need arise, as it's for an interview) and I'm fine with waiting a wee bit at either end.

Like a lot of other people, I think I can restrict myself to certain times a lot more now than I used to.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Courtesy of nationalised NIR:



Departure Station Destination Station
BELFAST LONDONDERRY




*Weekly Saving- Based on saving of weekly ticket over 5 x appropriate Return Fare.

Monthly ticketholders can avail of unlimited weekend travel across the entire NI Railways network. (From 01 May 2006 free weekend rail travel will only apply to Monthly tickets of value £60 or over.)

Belfast City Centre Stations

BOTANIC
CENTRAL
CITY HOSPITAL
GT. VICTORIA ST.
YORKGATE
FARES TABLE

Single Day Return Weekly Weekly Saving* Monthly
Adult £9.80 £14.00 £41.50 41% £142.00
Student £6.50 - £35.50 - -
Child £4.90 £7.00 £20.70 41% £71.00
16-21 - - £33.20 53% £113.60

 

[Mojo]

Don't forget how infrequent many of the services in Northern Ireland are though. I think they've got to maintain low fares to make up for the unattractiveness of the services.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Their train frequency is OK, better than ROI

 

[Metroland]

I think at the bottom of all this is people’s basic lack of understanding of economics and the relationship between demand and supply.

For example people blame the government for oil price hikes, when the amount of tax has actually been falling, and they have constantly put off tax rises. Against guidance, I might add, from the International Energy Agency. But the road lobby is especially powerful in this country. Either way they are preventing the market from working most efficiently.

For any goods or services where there is a certain supply, the price must balance the demand. So if supply is low and demand is high, the price is higher. The other way to balance supply and demand is government control or rationing – so pick your poison.

Many people praise the virtues of the market, when supply is expanding, and prices are low, but there is always a possible flip side, when supply is tight and demand is high.

As many of the earth’s resources are finite, and as demand can NEVER exceed supply, some things are simply not cheap for ever – unless they are sustainable. Which is really the bedrock of green thinking – and we can never get away from Green issues unless we can find a way of exploiting other planets economically.

A good example is oil. Below is a graph of world oil supply.

http://www.theoildrum.com/files/PU200712_Fig1c_0.png

As you can see, the supply hasn’t grown since 2005, indeed some oil industry experts are predicting a fall in supply in the 2009-2014 window. Clearly with booming demand from India and China, more cars, planes, expanding plastic and agricultural production, in the end with either have to.

1) Become more efficient
2) Find a substitute
3) Cease to take part in economic activities that require oil

Either way demand can NEVER exceed the supply, and the only way demand can be limited is through price or rationing. This is one reason we have $100 oil.

So what’s this got to do with train seats?

Likewise if you have 15,000 train seats between London and Manchester – and remembering the train stops at intermediate places too – you will surely want to maximise your income. There is no point in

1) Selling seats below the market value – IE when the supply and demand is high, say during the peak
2) Shipping about thin air – you might as well give the seats away, and in some cases this is what is done, or at a very low cost. Often the case off peak.

The downside is travel IS expensive during the peak, but the upside is it’s often very cheap off peak. The revenue is balanced out between the people travelling on high priced tickets in the peak, with those that are travelling on cheap tickets during off peak times.

Unfortunately this can lead to comparisons of £200 plus Manchester – London tickets with the cost of fuel of running a car or even flying off peak. Which many, many people seem to fall for, including newspapers, unions, passenger user groups, enthusiasts and the general public.

People might complain about overcrowded trains and a high fare, but from a market point of view, it means the price is probably too low.

We could of course expand capacity on the WCML – either by adding carriages, resignalling or in extreme cases even building a new route. Adding carriages and resignalling is probably the most cost effective way.

But in today’s prices capital intensive projects are expensive – not just on the railways. Indeed the M6 widening is going to cost £60 million per mile, and the new Heathrow runway (if it gets built) around £10-11 billion.

The debate this is really who will pay and how can that cost be recovered. With the railways now so risk adverse (because of safety scares – even though the railway is now officially the safest way to travel according to the RSSB) and the complex bureaucratic structure as well as our planning laws, it further complicates maters. Short term franchises do not help with the adding of carriages, especially when stock lasts 30-40 years, with a pay back time of around 20-25, and 10 year franchises.

But either way, there is no such thing as a free lunch…

 

[gordonthemoron]

Fair point.

However, I'm not convinced that the TOCs do their best to fill off peak trains. Frequently the allocation for the cheap advance returns have all gone but the trains are quite empty, e.g. Nottingham-London

 

[Metroland]

I agree with you.

Intercity services now are doing quite well with loads being pushed up to 60-75%. LSE and regional is pretty dire still off peak. But there's more walk on tickets there, which isn't so efficient as pre-book for matching load/seats - Even though it doesn't suit us enthusiasts.

They probably could do a lot, lot more with mobile phone tickets, selling tickets in supermarkets, free promotions, loyalty and smart cards and rovers.

Some countries have cheap all round tickets - I believe in Switzerland you can pay £1200 for a complete rail pass for the year, DB isn't much different, and often includes buses.

 

[paul1609]

Metroland, i think that you are overlooking the fact that oil supply will increase in response to price. There is plenty of oil left in the world i think 200 years worth at current consumption estimates. it was just the case that it couldn't be economically extracted when oil was at $50 a barrel and it takes a long time for the supply to respond to the increase in the price. When i was at school in the 1970s the experts were predicting that oil supplies were going to be exhausted by the early 2000's.

 

[Snapper]

I still dispute the Government's official rate of inflation. Things have gone up massively recently, especially food. And most people's biggest expense - housing - isn't included in the inflation figures.

If they wanted to reduce the burden on Tax payers they shouldn't have privatised it in the first place.

'They' didn't privatise the railways in the first place.

That was the other lot...

The problem is - the money has to come from somewhere. And which is the fairest option?

 

[Metroland]

Metroland, i think that you are overlooking the fact that oil supply will increase in response to price. There is plenty of oil left in the world i think 200 years worth at current consumption estimates. it was just the case that it couldn't be economically extracted when oil was at $50 a barrel and it takes a long time for the supply to respond to the increase in the price. When i was at school in the 1970s the experts were predicting that oil supplies were going to be exhausted by the early 2000's.

That's a theory, but in practice it's a little more complex. The original work was done in the 1930s, and now most experts, and several major oil companies believe oil supply will peak in the 2009-2020 window, with the early part of next decade more likely. Even the ultra conservative IEA believes we will peak in the 2020s, but India and China are pushing that date forward all the time.

I think you need to do a little more research. It's a very complex subject and I haven't got time to go through the full issues and ramifications, but the data from the graph about is actual production data from the IEA and their US counterparts.

And I quote

...The dire predictions of a key report on international oil supplies released Wednesday suggest that oil prices could move irreversibly over the $100 a barrel threshold in the not too distant future, as the global economy faces a serious energy shortage.

This gloomy assessment comes from the International Energy Agency, the Paris-based organization representing the 26 rich, gas-guzzling member nations of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). The agency is not known for alarmist warnings, and its World Energy Outlook is typically viewed by policy wonks as a solid indicator of global energy supplies. In a marked change from its traditionally bland, measured tones, the IEA's 2007 report says governments need to make urgent, bold decisions on energy policy, or risk massive environmental and energy-supply crises within two decades — crises and shortages that could spark serious global conflicts.

"I am sorry to say this, but we are headed toward really bad days," IEA chief economist Fatih Birol told TIME this week.'
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

'They' didn't privatise the railways in the first place.

That was the other lot...

The problem is - the money has to come from somewhere. And which is the fairest option?

Well not now, it's costing tax payers 3-4 times as much.

 

[paul1609]

I don't know how these averages are calculated, but someone told me that SWT are putting up fares like CDRs but not SuperOffPeak fares, in attempt to get people to use them?

I was told by one commuter how there are about 4 different prices for his journey in the morning, before 0930 it's full price, then after 0930 it's a CDR, then after 1000 it's a railcard discounted CDR, then after 1100(?) it's a SuperOffPeak. Oh, and the full price ticket is extortionate.

To be honest Yorkie that has been the case South of London for many years. There were at least 3 price bands for journeys in to London going back to NSE days when Chris Green introduced the Network Rail Card. One of the reasons for that card was to reduce the load on the first cheap day return train. There have been 4 price bands since at least early privatisation days when Connex introduced the Pricebuster tickets that we still have on Southern and Southeastern and SWT introduced Apex Tickets.