Union announces 6 strike dates for EMT drivers

[Legzr1]

There are fewer and fewer final salary schemes(or gold plated as you call them) around in the railway now and just about every new starter in the railway industry has been on a contribution based scheme since the early00's IIRC. I know I am and my staff are and everyone else who has joined so you're talking out your arse sir.

And it actually offends me somewhat when you lump us all in together with how you view the railway and what goes on as to what actually goes on.

It's not often I read your posts and find myself nodding in total agreement but on this occasion you've hit the bullseye.


Now (ignoring obvious troll posts) I do think the announcement of 6 days of strike action is over the top but if that forces 'the management' to engage in sensible dialogue then that's a good thing in my book.

I also think that some posters on this thread who happen to have a crap pension must secretly be wishing they were members of a strong union prepared to take action over the erosion of hard-fought-for pension rights.

Rather than wishing those in the railway pension scheme had equally crap pensions why not get your fingers out your asses and fight for better rights for yourself?

Or,is that too difficult?



Rhetorical question btw...

 

[tbtc]

I do think the announcement of 6 days of strike action is over the top but if that forces 'the management' to engage in sensible dialogue then that's a good thing in my book

If throwing your toys out of the pram at every possibly opportunity is the best way to maintain a constructive long term relationship, sure...

Rather than wishing those in the railway pension scheme had equally crap pensions why not get your fingers out your asses and fight for better rights for yourself?

...and if people don't like Bankers Bonuses then they should apply for jobs as Bankers instead of complaining?

 

[Clip]

And how viable do you think that will be? Everyone else living in the real world where gold plated pensions are a thing of the past, and rail workers and MPs still on gold-plated schemes largely paid for by all those real world folk on non-defined pensions (MPs through taxation, rail workers through elevated train fares)?

I live in the real world thanks. I and my employees are not on gold plated pensions and neither are a damn sight load of rail staff who now work in this industry. So what you have done by stating the above is lump us all in together with such a statement

It's not often I read your posts and find myself nodding in total agreement but on this occasion you've hit the bullseye.
QUOTE]

Aww shucks....

...and if people don't like Bankers Bonuses then they should apply for jobs as Bankers instead of complaining?

No what he is saying is that instead of moaning about what others get why not fight for better pension provisions for yourself. He never said anything about changing career, unless I didnt read his post properly or you invented that he said that.

 

[Legzr1]

If throwing your toys out of the pram at every possibly opportunity is the best way to maintain a constructive long term relationship, sure...

That shows how little you really know about the everyday negotiations between a Union (who are there to get the best deal for their members) and a management team all too eager to go crying to the press when things don't go their way.

...and if people don't like Bankers Bonuses then they should apply for jobs as Bankers instead of complaining?

Poor analogy.

E-

Must try harder...

It's all about taking a stand and bettering ones self rather than praying for those on better T&C's to dumb down to the lowest common denominator.

Although I suspect you knew that.

 

[Skymonster]

...and EMT are making it worse for their customers who need to travel on Tuesday by not providing any reservations on the retimed London services!! Why they think it's a good idea to have their customers inconvenienced by strike action, and then inconvenience them further by not allowing those travelling to assure themselves of a seat, is beyond me... I suppose I shouldn't expect particularly good customer focus from EMT really! :roll:

Andy

 

[Nonsense]

I also think that some posters on this thread who happen to have a crap pension must secretly be wishing they were members of a strong union prepared to take action over the erosion of hard-fought-for pension rights.

Then you'd be wrong. I have a crap pension. But instead of secretly wishing that I too had a bunch of hired thugs do my bidding, I'd rather wish I'd taken it upon myself earlier in my career to prepare properly for my retirement and not expect others to do it for me.

And why blame the management when the union fails to negotiate a suitable deal, surely its the union that failed and its the public that suffers. Perhaps better negotiators are required. Anti union sentiment has nothing to with jealousy and everything to do with the inconvenience and misery they cause for everyone else.

 

[tbtc]

...and EMT are making it worse for their customers who need to travel on Tuesday by not providing any reservations on the retimed London services!! Why they think it's a good idea to have their customers inconvenienced by strike action, and then inconvenience them further by not allowing those travelling to assure themselves of a seat, is beyond me... I suppose I shouldn't expect particularly good customer focus from EMT really! :roll:

Andy

I don't know what EMT can really do though - the London services are going to be very busy - its not EMT who called this strike.

 

[Skymonster]

I don't know what EMT can really do though - the London services are going to be very busy - its not EMT who called this strike.

Errrr... How about allowing folks who want to travel on 1st or 3rd May to make reservations for trains featured on the revised timetable???

I don't [totally] blame EMT for the strike, but I certainly do blame EMT for making it worse for their customers than it needs to be by totally suspending reservations during the strike.

Andy

 

[Tomnick]

Given the potential for serious overcrowding due to the much reduced service, any attempt at providing reservations would, I'm sure, quickly descend into unenforceable chaos!

 

[Skymonster]

Given the potential for serious overcrowding due to the much reduced service, any attempt at providing reservations would, I'm sure, quickly descend into unenforceable chaos!

In other words - sod customer service, providing reservations falls into the "too difficult" category.

"Given the serious potential for overcrowding" I'd have thought offering reservations to those customers who have already been inconvenienced would be good customer service, and also might help those poor suckers who have to travel that day and hold FORs from having to stand because too many Clampetts on mega-cheap advances have got on before the train arrives at their station!

Andy

 

[Tomnick]

It's one thing to offer reservations though - it's quite another to manage the situation when passengers inevitably either can't get through the train to reach their seat, or find an equally inconvenienced passenger occupying their seat! What about all those who have previously reserved seats on a train that now won't run?

 

[CosherB]

I also think that some posters on this thread who happen to have a crap pension must secretly be wishing they were members of a strong union prepared to take action over the erosion of hard-fought-for pension rights.

'Nonesense' says he has a crap pension, and he is free to comment here as is evrybody, and he doesn't wallow in self pity. As it happens I have a great final-salary company pension which I've been living on (very well thank you) for the last 4 years, and I can comment here as well despite my own good fortune. So one has to ask... where are you coming from with that pointed comment?

What the frick has my and 'Nonesense's pensions got to with expressing an opinion about the lunacy of the proposed EMT madness, Legzr1? Are you, Legzr1, so self obsessed that you think only those on crap pensions would comment as those comforrtably off couldn't care less? You really should realise that some of us have the capability to comment on situations as we see them, regardless of our personal position. We can take a disinterested (not to be confused with 'uninterested') view. You should try it!

 

[Legzr1]

Then you'd be wrong.

Good of you to PM every member in this thread,garner opinion,collate facts then speak for every one of them...

I have a crap pension. But instead of secretly wishing that I too had a bunch of hired thugs do my bidding, I'd rather wish I'd taken it upon myself earlier in my career to prepare properly for my retirement and not expect others to do it for me.

So basically you regret not gaining employment with a trade that offered (relatively)poor wages but good T&C's and excellent pension rights.

Shame.

Perhaps you and your ilk could organised your own 'bunch of hired thugs' to negotiate on your behalf?

You say you have a crap pension - any thug must be better that those that negotiated for you in the past surely?

And why blame the management when the union fails to negotiate a suitable deal, surely its the union that failed and its the public that suffers.

Why not?

It's the 'management' implementing things that the union (and those they represent) do not want or need.

If you need to blame one side,start blaming the side that started the ball rolling.:roll:

Perhaps better negotiators are required.

Like those that negotiated YOUR pension perhaps?

No thanks.

Anti union sentiment has nothing to with jealousy and everything to do with the inconvenience and misery they cause for everyone else.

I beg to differ.

You can speak for yourself.

However,I listen to others spouting off regularly and I tend to disagree with you.

No matter,life goes on.

 

[Nonsense]

Here we go...

Good of you to PM every member in this thread,garner opinion,collate facts then speak for every one of them...

Yes.

So basically you regret not gaining employment with a trade that offered (relatively)poor wages but good T&C's and excellent pension rights.

Shame.

No.

I spent my youth in low paid work enjoying cheap beer and cheaper women. I may be having to work harder for the future now but theres not a pension scheme on the planet I would swap for those days.

Perhaps you and your ilk could organised your own 'bunch of hired thugs' to negotiate on your behalf?

Or perhaps I could negotiate for myself. Whenever I have a cause for concern I take it to my MD, if I'm not happy with the outcome, I find an employer that can offer more.

You say you have a crap pension - any thug must be better that those that negotiated for you in the past surely?

Again, I don't rely on others to fight my cause. If you can't justify your own argument to your employer, why should anyone else, paid or not.

It's the 'management' implementing things that the union (and those they represent) do not want or need.

If you need to blame one side,start blaming the side that started the ball rolling.:roll:

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realise that the railway was run by the union for the benefit of its members.

Like those that negotiated YOUR pension perhaps?

There you go again, fixated with mine and others pension as if it makes any difference to the argument. I don't care what you get paid, I don't care if you get a 2x final salary pension plus yacht and retire at 50. I care what I pay for my ticket, that the services is clean and reliable, and that you don't disrupt me and thousands every time theres an HR issue.

I beg to differ.

You can speak for yourself.

However,I listen to others spouting off regularly and I tend to disagree with you.

No matter,life goes on.

You can believe what you want, but not everyone thinks the way you do. I don't resent others having something I don't. If I wanted the pay and conditions of the railway, I'd work on the railway. I work hard for what I have and expect others to do the same; paying a union fee isn't the same as fighting for your rights.

My life is affected by the things I have; not what you have, so please drop the bitter twisted jealousy counter argument because its just not true. If you could work out a way to get your pension without effecting the travel plans and lives of thousands of rail users we'd probably be on the same side.

For what its worth, if if were my decision (but someone else's money), I would give you whatever pay and pension settlement you want.

 

[Skymonster]

What about all those who have previously reserved seats on a train that now won't run?

Indeed... EMT seem to have managed to email me to tell me (and presumably many other people who've booked tickets via the web) that a train I'm booked on next Tuesday isn't running so I don't see why they can't also add "and if you phone this number we'll book you a seat on a train that is running"

It's one thing to offer reservations though - it's quite another to manage the situation when passengers inevitably either can't get through the train to reach their seat, or find an equally inconvenienced passenger occupying their seat!

I'd have thought some passengers having having seat reservations such that they know which coach and seat to aim for (and thus cutting down on the toing and froing) was infinitely preferable to having everyone travelling schlepping up and down the train, all going in different directions, looking for seats.

Andy

 

[krisk]

This situation sounds like there is more to it, you don't just shout "strike" for no reason

 

[Tomnick]

I'd have thought some passengers having having seat reservations such that they know which coach and seat to aim for (and thus cutting down on the toing and froing) was infinitely preferable to having everyone travelling schlepping up and down the train, all going in different directions, looking for seats

Probably a sensible approach under normal circumstances - but I'd guess that many of the trains will be so crowded that moving up and down the train won't be practical!

 

[tbtc]

Errrr... How about allowing folks who want to travel on 1st or 3rd May to make reservations for trains featured on the revised timetable???

I don't [totally] blame EMT for the strike, but I certainly do blame EMT for making it worse for their customers than it needs to be by totally suspending reservations during the strike.

Andy

In other words - sod customer service, providing reservations falls into the "too difficult" category.

"Given the serious potential for overcrowding" I'd have thought offering reservations to those customers who have already been inconvenienced would be good customer service, and also might help those poor suckers who have to travel that day and hold FORs from having to stand because too many Clampetts on mega-cheap advances have got on before the train arrives at their station!

Andy

Those "Clampetts on mega-cheap advances" tend to have seat reservations too - one of the daft things that someone on a bargain ticket normally gets a seat reservation with it whilst someone on a Full Open Return doesn't.

 

[Bellwater]

Not many FORs around these days with the increase in First Class Advance Tickets.

Tbtc is right, all Advance fares on EMT come with seat reservations.

 

[Legzr1]

No.

I spent my youth in low paid work enjoying cheap beer and cheaper women. I may be having to work harder for the future now but theres not a pension scheme on the planet I would swap for those days.

Good for you.

I think...

Or perhaps I could negotiate for myself.

Yes,you could.

And end up with (in your words) a 'crap pension'.

Whenever I have a cause for concern I take it to my MD, if I'm not happy with the outcome, I find an employer that can offer more.

Good for you.

Again, I don't rely on others to fight my cause. If you can't justify your own argument to your employer, why should anyone else, paid or not.

It's called collective bargaining.

Look it up.

You never know,you might actually see the light.

Indeed,you might actually get the point.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realise that the railway was run by the union for the benefit of its members.

No need to apologise for flippancy - it's what i've come to expect from those too blinkered to get the point.

There you go again, fixated with mine and others pension as if it makes any difference to the argument.

It makes no difference to YOUR argument because the facts don't sit too well with your 'I did it all myself' mentality.

I care what I pay for my ticket, that the services is clean and reliable, and that you don't disrupt me and thousands every time theres an HR issue.

Bless your little cotton socks - I hadn't realised your personal 'disruption' meant so much.

Here's a thought - rather than labling unions as 'thugs' why not face the fact that EMT management caused this to save a few bob until their franchise ends?

Just because you have no teeth when it comes to bargaining don't go berating others that have that luxury.

You can believe what you want

Thanks for the permission.

but not everyone thinks the way you do.

Wrong.

Whilst you were proof reading your last diatribe I conducted a straw poll amongst everyone I met in 30 seconds and everyone agreed with me.

Tough for you but,sometimes,life's like that...

I don't resent others having something I don't.

Glad to hear that.

The shame is that you needed to spell it out...

paying a union fee isn't the same as fighting for your rights.

It is very similar.

The clue is in the name : Union 'representatives'.

Walking out of a job to get more money elsewhere is an option for people like you,I agree.

Hardly fighting for your rights is it?

Actually,it's closer to walking away.

My life is affected by the things I have; not what you have

Really?

I have a union calling for industrial action to stop an erosion of T&C's.

You don't.

And yet you cry foul at the thought of your important existance being affected by the possibilty of that same industrial action.

You seem confused mate.

so please drop the bitter twisted jealousy counter argument

I'll 'drop' it when it ceases to matter.

At this precise moment it still matters.

If you could work out a way to get your pension without effecting the travel plans and lives of thousands of rail users we'd probably be on the same side.

There is an answer (but you wouldn't like it - it might go against you quite obvious anti-union slant).

You want the answer?

Here goes:

Email EMT and ask them to stop meddling.

Ask them if the fallout THEY might cause is worth the (relatively) small amount of cash they'll save.

When you've received no reply,been ignored,had the policy implemented anyway then get back to me and we can discuss further options.

Or you could pay 50p a day for union membership and allow them to discuss on your behalf.

Have a think about it.

For what its worth, if if were my decision (but someone else's money), I would give you whatever pay and pension settlement you want.

No need for that.

I'm not a greedy man.

Just leave things the way the are,stop meddling and there'd be no need for any of this.

Have a think about that too.

 

[jwos]

Has anyone pondered on the real reason behind the dispute possibly being that without pension contributions going down, any future pay awards may well push EMT drivers into a higher tax bracket?

 

[Legzr1]

I'm tired but that doesn't seem to make much sense to me

 

[YorkshireRider]

Has anyone pondered on the real reason behind the dispute possibly being that without pension contributions going down, any future pay awards may well push EMT drivers into a higher tax bracket?

I hadnt pondered it until you mentioned it but now i have i can only say....ehhh??

 

[AlexS]

Indeed... EMT seem to have managed to email me to tell me (and presumably many other people who've booked tickets via the web) that a train I'm booked on next Tuesday isn't running so I don't see why they can't also add "and if you phone this number we'll book you a seat on a train that is running"



I'd have thought some passengers having having seat reservations such that they know which coach and seat to aim for (and thus cutting down on the toing and froing) was infinitely preferable to having everyone travelling schlepping up and down the train, all going in different directions, looking for seats.

Andy

If you think anyone is going to pay any attention at all to seat reservations when you're trying to shoe-horn 4 trains an hour worth of passengers in to 1 (even if it's a 10 car 222 lashup), then I think you've not grasped the situation. The point I think is that there's unlikely to be a case of being able to parade freely down the train trying to find your seat, and even less chance of evicting someone from it - you'd need a small army to enforce it, one that unfortunately is not available. If you're able to get on the train, consider yourself lucky.

 

[Bald Rick]

Has anyone pondered on the real reason behind the dispute possibly being that without pension contributions going down, any future pay awards may well push EMT drivers into a higher tax bracket?

What, over £150k?

 

[HH]

ASLEF should look after its members and that includes Pensions. I can't believe that it is stupid enough to go on strike against something that has to be done; rather I expect it is trying to stop a recurrence of what happened during the first round of franchises, where many employers took a pension holiday in the boom times, leaving pension funds under-funded when the bubble burst.

Regarding the economics, while the railways continue to grow the RPS will continue to flourish, as the additional, new staff will fund all the long-living retirees. At some point though, the growth will stop. At that point the brown stuff will hit the whirring blades.

 

[swt_passenger]

I hadnt pondered it until you mentioned it but now i have i can only say....ehhh??

Perfectly possible. Pension contributions deducted from salary are not part of your taxable earnings, so if you are just below the boundary for the 40% tax rate, and the £500 extra in your pay packet takes you over that boundary, then yes it will affect your tax rate.

From what I read many drivers are on or about the 40% tax rate once overtime is included - since April the starting figure for 40% has been a salary (after pensions contribution deduction) of £42,475. That total being the personal allowance £8105 plus the 20% band £34,370.

 

[Bald Rick]

Perfectly possible. Pension contributions deducted from salary are not part of your taxable earnings, so if you are just below the boundary for the 40% tax rate, and the £500 extra in your pay packet takes you over that boundary, then yes it will affect your tax rate.

From what I read many drivers are on or about the 40% tax rate once overtime is included - since April the starting figure for 40% has been a salary (after pensions contribution deduction) of £42,475. That total being the personal allowance £8105 plus the 20% band £34,370.

After Sundays, overtime, rest days etc, there will be very few drivers who aren't in the 40% tax bracket. And of course you only pay 40% of what you earn over that amount. I suppose it might be something to do with the loss of child benefit, which affects anyone with children where they earn more than £50k. But again there are plenty of drivers earning more than that, and if £500 is enough to make a difference, one annual pay rise linked to RPI will more than wipe it out.

 

[DavidBusDriver]

HH has quite succinctly posted exactly what I meant earlier, if it HAD to be done there would be no dispute, but because EMT are wanting it done to save a few pennies, that is why there is a bit of a problem. At least that is the way the situation is being read in my opinion, other opinions may, of course, vary!

 

[bluenoxid]

Has anyone pondered on the real reason behind the dispute possibly being that without pension contributions going down, any future pay awards may well push EMT drivers into a higher tax bracket?

What, over £150k?

Errrmmmmm. Yeah! Think I made my point.