United Airlines forcibly removes passenger from overbooked flight

[Antman]

If United wer elooking to save a bit of money by kicking this guy and others off the plane, then it's backfired spectacularly. I reckon that whoever made this awful misjudgement is already looking for a new career.

I don't think it's a bloody nose for the entire airline industry, but it's far more than that for this airline. The top man might not want it to drag on, but it doesn't look as if it's going away any time soon.

Absolutely, United's competitors must be rubbing their hands with glee about this monumental 'own goal'.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I reckon that whoever made this awful misjudgement is already looking for a new career.

Oh sure, they'll throw a small fish to the sharks with the usual nonsense about it being an "isolated incident" and someone moving away from SOP.

But other stories have made it clear that it isn't an isolated incident, it wasn't an over-zealous gate agent, it is something that United routinely do.

http://www.latimes.com/business/laz...ed-low-priority-passenger-20170412-story.html

Fearns needed to return early so he paid about $1,000 for a full-fare, first-class ticket to Los Angeles. He boarded the aircraft at Lihue Airport on the island of Kauai, took his seat and enjoyed a complimentary glass of orange juice while awaiting takeoff.

Then, as Fearns tells it, a United employee rushed onto the aircraft and informed him that he had to get off the plane.

“I asked why,” he told me. “They said the flight was overfull.”

Fearns, like the doctor at the center of that viral video from Sunday night, held his ground. He was already on the plane, already seated. He shouldn’t have to disembark.

“That’s when they told me they needed the seat for somebody more important who came at the last minute,” Fearns said. “They said they have a priority list and this other person was higher on the list than me.”

A United employee, responding to Fearns’ complaint that he shouldn’t have to miss the flight, compromised by downgrading him to economy class and placing him in the middle seat between a married couple who were in the midst of a nasty fight and refused to be seated next to each other.

...which immediately begs the question why, if there is a spare seat, was he told the plane was overbooked.

 

[AlterEgo]

Oh sure, they'll throw a small fish to the sharks with the usual nonsense about it being an "isolated incident" and someone moving away from SOP.

But other stories have made it clear that it isn't an isolated incident, it wasn't an over-zealous gate agent, it is something that United routinely do.

http://www.latimes.com/business/laz...ed-low-priority-passenger-20170412-story.html



...which immediately begs the question why, if there is a spare seat, was he told the plane was overbooked.

Clearly, first class was overbooked, probably because of a high-status passenger who either booked at the last minute or managed to scrape a connection the gate staff thought they were bound to miss.

Even so, you simply don't turf people off planes. BA are a shambles nowadays, but even they would not be so daft.

 

[vrbarreto]

Absolutely, United's competitors must be rubbing their hands with glee about this monumental 'own goal'.

Emirates is having a field day especially after what Munoz said about them not being a real airline.

Their competitors into Asia are going to feed of the bad vibes and frankly who want to fly with an airline that says it can turf you off your flight at anytime if someone with greater 'status' wants your seat.

And domestically.. Not sure if the SouthWest Ad of "We beat our competitors, not our passengers' is a spoof or not but it keeps the mind focused

 

[vrbarreto]

Clearly, first class was overbooked, probably because of a high-status passenger who either booked at the last minute or managed to scrape a connection the gate staff thought they were bound to miss.

Even so, you simply don't turf people off planes. BA are a shambles nowadays, but even they would not be so daft.

Apparently there was an equipment swap out which meant that there were fewer first class seats in this particular aircraft. Therefore he turned up and was allocated a seat... A higher status person turned up and the airline decided to turf him out of his role of seat warmer for the higher status passenger.

 

[Howardh]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/new-footage-shows-lead-up-10216774
This video is interesting. He clearly says "you can drag me off (but I'm not going)" which a defence lawyer might use to defend the airline - "he invited the assault..."
But at no stage there does he look like anything the CEO said he was before the assault.

 

[Greenback]

Oh sure, they'll throw a small fish to the sharks with the usual nonsense about it being an "isolated incident" and someone moving away from SOP.

Judging by the first comment by the head honcho of United, it was indeed SOP. WHile I'd hope it wouldn't just be the local manager(s) who ge tthrown to the sharks, that isn't normally how it works.

Policies like SOP's normally evolve down the years with input from a wide range of staff, many of whom will no longer be working for United and some of whom are probably dead.

 

[flymo]

I reckon this will never get to court, United will settle out of court for an astronomical 7 figure sum to make this particular incident go away and pacify their investors but they will never change the way they do things, ever, nor will any airline. We'll never get to know what the true figure of the losses from this debacle will be but short term it is more than a 7 figure sum. Paying the good Doctor off for beating him up is peanuts in the whole scheme and United know it.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I actually wonder whether United have much reputation to mend. They have had a poor reputation for customer service going back many years despite all the upheavals, re-organisations and mergers. Though in fairness to them all US airlines, at least on internal routes (ie the majority of their services), tend to pay lip service to the concept of customer primacy. But with the US economy being somewhat dependent on the ability of people to travel relatively long distances at quite short notice it's unlikely much will change.

 

[Howardh]

I actually wonder whether United have much reputation to mend. They have had a poor reputation for customer service going back many years despite all the upheavals, re-organisations and mergers. Though in fairness to them all US airlines, at least on internal routes (ie the majority of their services), tend to pay lip service to the concept of customer primacy. But with the US economy being somewhat dependent on the ability of people to travel relatively long distances at quite short notice it's unlikely much will change.

Perhaps they need better railways as competition?

 

[northwichcat]

A higher status person turned up and the airline decided to turf him out of his role of seat warmer for the higher status passenger.

How can the airline decide who is a 'higher status passenger.' If they chucked out a passenger who had purchased a 1st class ticket for the 1st time then that'll probably be the last time they buy a 1st class ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

How can the airline decide who is a 'higher status passenger.' If they chucked out a passenger who had purchased a 1st class ticket for the 1st time then that'll probably be the last time they buy a 1st class ticket.

By their frequent flier status, and sometimes by CRM data they hold about the passenger.

 

[northwichcat]

By their frequent flier status, and sometimes by CRM data they hold about the passenger.

Yes but who is more likely to fly again:
1. Someone who's purchased a first class ticket once and got regulated to economy
or
2. Someone who's flown 1st class 99 times and the one time they turned up late they get told "Sorry we can't accommodate you this time"?

I imagine it would be (2).

 

[northwichcat]

Perhaps they need better railways as competition?

Don't forget to go from one side of North America to the other requires you to travel around the same distance as you'd travel to get from the UK to New York. That's a bit far for a train journey!

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes but who is more likely to fly again:
1. Someone who's purchased a first class ticket once and got regulated to economy
or
2. Someone who's flown 1st class 99 times and the one time they turned up late they get told "Sorry we can't accommodate you this time"?

I imagine it would be (2).

But the person who purchased the first class ticket once is not a regular cash cow for the airline.

If you want an insight into the weird (and sometimes infantile) mentality of frequent fliers, go to FlyerTalk. There's a good reason I rarely post there any more.

 

[najaB]

If it ends overbooking, then some good will come out of it.

It won't. Overbooking is very much part of the business model for US airlines.

 

[edwin_m]

The problem here doesn't appear to be overbooking as such, rather the way this particular overbooking was handled. Going by what is said on this thread and elsewhere there would have been several better ways of dealing with it:
- Offering more money or cash instead of vouchers
- Putting their crew members on one of the other airlines' flights that departed a bit later
- If that would have violated their rules on rest time, putting the bumped passengers on another airline's flights so the delay was only couple of hours instead of most of a day
- Or hire a limo to take the bumped passengers to their doors in relative luxury three or four hours after they would have got their with the flight
Either of the last two might even have been cheaper for the airline, considering they wouldn't have had to book hotel rooms.

 

[Howardh]

The problem here doesn't appear to be overbooking as such, rather the way this particular overbooking was handled. Going by what is said on this thread and elsewhere there would have been several better ways of dealing with it:
- Offering more money or cash instead of vouchers
- Putting their crew members on one of the other airlines' flights that departed a bit later
- If that would have violated their rules on rest time, putting the bumped passengers on another airline's flights so the delay was only couple of hours instead of most of a day
- Or hire a limo to take the bumped passengers to their doors in relative luxury three or four hours after they would have got their with the flight
Either of the last two might even have been cheaper for the airline, considering they wouldn't have had to book hotel rooms.

Someone can fill me in - I've no idea of the two airports invoved and the flying time. But if there was no flight (even via another company) within reasonable time following this, a further option could have been to fly the guy to a nearby airport (if there was one) with another company (if they flew and had space) and taxi the guy -or the staff trying to get on - from there to his door.
The final leg would have to be a couple of hours or less which is restrictive.
However, someone flying to the UK from Europe has that possibility, unless you are in the north of Scotland or central Wales, airports are pretty close (or if you were flying to Leeds and ended up in Manchester it's a significant but not massive change.
If I were aiming atManchester and ended up in leeds and the airline taxied me home then I may be home quicker than the Manchester bit where I would be relying on trains and buses.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It won't. Overbooking is very much part of the business model for US airlines.

It's a standard practice amongst all airlines around the World; banning it would result in high fares across the board.

The BBC website today is carrying a video report of a man who got stung by a scorpion on a United flight:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39599859

Richard Bell describes the moment a scorpion fell on his head, on a United Airlines flight from Houston to Calgary in Canada.

 

[najaB]

It's a standard practice amongst all airlines around the World; banning it would result in high fares across the board.

Indeed, but even more so in the US. There was talk a decade or so ago about banning the practice but it quickly came to naught as it was just not economically viable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, but even more so in the US. There was talk a decade or so ago about banning the practice but it quickly came to naught as it was just not economically viable.

There's no real problem with it (within reason[1]) provided it is handled properly, i.e. you just keep upping the offer until someone volunteers, as every man has his price, and provided you fully handle it before anyone boards.

[1] I weekly-commuted to the Netherlands about 10 years ago for a bit, and the 1700 ish AMS-LHR KLM flight on a Friday was *always* overbooked by about 10 people with all of them inevitably showing up, which was just poor planning and needed reining in. If it happens twice, it's time to reduce the number a bit.

 

[edwin_m]

Someone can fill me in - I've no idea of the two airports invoved and the flying time. But if there was no flight (even via another company) within reasonable time following this, a further option could have been to fly the guy to a nearby airport (if there was one) with another company (if they flew and had space) and taxi the guy -or the staff trying to get on - from there to his door.
The final leg would have to be a couple of hours or less which is restrictive.
However, someone flying to the UK from Europe has that possibility, unless you are in the north of Scotland or central Wales, airports are pretty close (or if you were flying to Leeds and ended up in Manchester it's a significant but not massive change.
If I were aiming atManchester and ended up in leeds and the airline taxied me home then I may be home quicker than the Manchester bit where I would be relying on trains and buses.

According to posts earlier in the thread it's Chicago to Louisville, about 300 miles, and with several other flights within a few hours afterwards. Google gives a road travel time of 4hr 27min.

 

[ivanhoe]

According to BBC News, I see United Airlines are changing their policy re overbooking. The airline said that in future crew members would be allocated seats at least an hour before departure. I see there is no intention to alter their business model where flights are routinely overbooked. I don't see any change in culture then about their attitudes to passengers, particularly in Economy. It's about time they stopped this farce. Just don't overbook and sort out your crew rosters. This is 2017 with some of the best technology available for booking.

 

[AlterEgo]

According to BBC News, I see United Airlines are changing their policy re overbooking. The airline said that in future crew members would be allocated seats at least an hour before departure. I see there is no intention to alter their business model where flights are routinely overbooked. I don't see any change in culture then about their attitudes to passengers, particularly in Economy. It's about time they stopped this farce. Just don't overbook and sort out your crew rosters. This is 2017 with some of the best technology available for booking.

But that misses the point - everyone else overboooks, that's partly how airlines survive. Overbooking is a necessary evil.

 

[ivanhoe]

But that misses the point - everyone else overboooks, that's partly how airlines survive. Overbooking is a necessary evil.

There is no logical reason for overbooking other than using a broken business model . Airlines should be allowed to fail if they have to use such a model. If people don't show, you've still had their fare. The Airline Industry (mainly legacy Airlines) need to change. Will they? I doubt it.

 

[edwin_m]

There is no logical reason for overbooking other than using a broken business model . Airlines should be allowed to fail if they have to use such a model. If people don't show, you've still had their fare. The Airline Industry (mainly legacy Airlines) need to change. Will they? I doubt it.

If they don't overbook by say 5% they make 5% less on each flight. The margin on short-haul flights is apparently less than that, so unless all the competitors stop overbooking too it could make the difference between survival and going under. And if everybody stopped overbooking, or the failure of some airlines reduced competition, then the fares would go up.

I repeat, this isn't a failure of overbooking as such, rather this particular incident was handled extremely badly.

 

[AlterEgo]

There is no logical reason for overbooking other than using a broken business model . Airlines should be allowed to fail if they have to use such a model. If people don't show, you've still had their fare. The Airline Industry (mainly legacy Airlines) need to change. Will they? I doubt it.

It's not a broken business model. Airlines rely on overbooking because their margins are very very slim. The last few (virtual) seats on any aircraft are always sold at stinging prices. That could be as much as £1200 for the last three seats on a BA short haul flight. Now say the airline isn't allowed to overbook three - it must tolerate no shows and fly aircraft with more empty seats.

Some airlines do not overbook - I believe Ryanair and EasyJet might have such policies. But the reason they have such policies is because they're only point to point airlines and don't necessarily have the ability to easily reaccpmmodate across an alliance.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Some airlines do not overbook - I believe Ryanair and EasyJet might have such policies. But the reason they have such policies is because they're only point to point airlines and don't necessarily have the ability to easily reaccpmmodate across an alliance.

I think this answers whether EasyJet does overbooking... BBC story today

Two Easyjet passengers were removed from an overbooked flight and not offered compensation a day after a United Airlines passenger was dragged off a plane in the US.

The British couple were due to fly from Luton Airport to Catania in Sicily on Monday last week.

After boarding the aircraft they were asked to leave by staff because the plane had been overbooked.

 

[najaB]

. Just don't overbook and sort out your crew rosters. This is 2017 with some of the best technology available for booking.

Airlines have to overbook in order to survive, profit margins are razor thin. And how do you propose airlines 'sort out' their rosters given that they can't force crews to live in every city where planes start and end their days.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think this answers whether EasyJet does overbooking... BBC story today

Well there you go then.

It looks like it's only Ryanair which doesn't overbook.