Unpaid Fare Notice for Anytime fare due to not carrying Railcard

[cringer123]

Hello - please can you help? I was issued with an unpaid fare notice from East coast for over £250. I was wondering what is the best way to get this resolved. Would I be better using twitter to highlight my case?

Mods' note: this thread is just for dealing with the OP's specific issue, of which there are few details. Please remain on topic and ensure posts conform to the Guidelines & Forum Rules. If you wish to discuss how you think passengers who forget to carry their Railcards should be treated, please use Forgetting to carry a Railcard - how do you think passengers should be treated? If you wish to go off-topic on any other matter, please post a new thread.

 

[bb21]

Twitter team will just direct you to Customer Service.

You will need to provide us with details of what happened for anyone to be able to help.

 

[cringer123]

From reading these posts it sounds like a standard story, I was rushing to leave, didn't check my documents and forgot my f&f railcard. Got presented with huge bill, got upset in front of my kids. I haven't been asked to show it before and the only time I don't have it I was asked to show it. I presented it when I bought the tickets at the tickets office.

 

[cuccir]

The details which are asked for in the 'fixed' thread at the top of the page will be useful before we can advise!

 

[yorkie]

From reading these posts it sounds like a standard story, I was rushing to leave, didn't check my documents and forgot my f&f railcard. Got presented with huge bill, got upset in front of my kids. I haven't been asked to show it before and the only time I don't have it I was asked to show it. I presented it when I bought the tickets at the tickets office.

I can't figure out whether £250 is correct or not as I don't know the origin, destination, number of adults & children. Also the ticket type held and whether you were sold singles, returns, or an excess would be useful to know too.

However, officially, a new ticket can be charged when a passenger doesn't hold a valid Railcard, and depending on company policy they can charge a completely new Anytime fare.

In practice, many Guards will show discretion (and some Train Companies specify this) either by selling Off Peak fares (where appropriate) and/or an excess from the discounted, to undiscounted rate.

Such discretion is more likely to be shown if a good attitude is displayed (e.g. not being angry at the ticket inspector) and if the passenger is undertaking a very long journey where full fare tickets would be costly.

Also, some Train Companies have a policy that if you produce a copy of the original Railcard to them at a later date, then providing the Railcard name matches details of the passenger, they may waive the charges as a gesture of goodwill on a 'one-off' basis. I'm not sure whether or not East Coast have such a policy. I do know people who work for EC so I could try to find out. But it's well worth writing a polite, concise letter and they might waive them.

As it's an Unpaid Fare Notice, that makes things more tricky because EC's debt collection agency Revenue Protection Support Services (RPSS) will be chasing the matter, and they don't generally do discretion! I would suggest you write to both EC customer services and the debt collection agency (whose contact details will be written on the form; they're based in Portsmouth!).

 

[cringer123]

Thank you. It was leeds to kings cross with 2 young children with me. I had purchased tickets for them too so they had seats. The notice includes the cost of child standard tickets and this is included in the figure, i don't have the exact one with me at the moment. I was calm with the guard but totally unprepared and unsure what to do or say. I have written a letter to east coast customer relations and provided a copy of my card. I was really upset and embarrassed.

 

[yorkie]

Thank you. It was leeds to kings cross with 2 young children with me. I had purchased tickets for them too so they had seats.

Do you mean they were under 5?

If so, was the train busy and were they occupying seats that would otherwise be required by other passengers?

If the train was lightly loaded, and if they were willing & able to give up their seats if & when the train became busy, then there would be no need to charge them, if they were indeed under 5 (which I take to be implied by your last post?)

The notice includes the cost of child standard tickets and this is included in the figure, i don't have the exact one with me at the moment. I was calm with the guard but totally unprepared and unsure what to do or say. I have written a letter to east coast customer relations and provided a copy of my card. I was really upset and embarrassed.

I'm going to guess that you were sold 1 adult and 2 child single tickets from Leeds to King's Cross?

The cost of an adult Anytime Single is £124.50, with a child single half that, so the total wound be £249.

That seems rather harsh, so if you were polite throughout I am surprised at this, especially if the children were under 5. I've seen EC guards be much more lenient, but there are one or two who are known to be "desperate".

There's nothing I can really add other than, while harsh, it's technically correct, and I would recommend you write to both RPSS and Customer Services.

If you'd been excessed, or charged a new Super Off Peak Single for just yourself, I'd have suggested you let it go. In your position, it's well worth contacting EC.

Also worth contacting Passenger Focus, if EC don't give you a good outcome. Passenger Focus are poor at dealing with 'complex' cases but are surprisingly pro-passenger when a passenger has been correctly charged, but the charge appears to be disproportionately high.

 

[FGWman]

How young were they ? If you only bought them a ticket to get a seat and they are under 5 then they don't actually need a ticket.

 

[Mike395]

Please can people read the guidelines with regard to posting in this section, which are stickied at the top of the forum in particular with regards to ensuring any post is helpful to the person asking the initial query.

Thanks!

 

[RPI]

We are all assuming that the journey was made at an off-peak time, if not then the Anytime Single would be the cheapest available fare

 

[SussexMan]

So, assuming the children were under 5 as seems likely from the OP's posts, is there a consensus on whether they should have been sold replacement tickets (assuming no discretion etc) in the following situations:

1) the train was full and some people were having to stand
2) there were spare seats available
3) the OP said he wanted them to have their own seats

Does the fact that the OP had purchased tickets from them previously have any bearing on the decision?

 

[cringer123]

Thank you all for your comments & advice. I will let you know how I get on

 

[Tetchytyke]

You don't ask you don't get.

 

[Flamingo]

Are you asserting that an under 5 without a ticket in a seat is liable to either being moved or charged a ticket in circumstances where the train is full?

If the seat is required by a fare paying passenger, yes.

NRCoC:

"Up to two children under five years of age may travel free of charge with a passenger holding a ticket or other authority to travel. However, children under five years of age who are travelling free may only occupy a seat which is not required by a passenger holding a ticket or appropriate authority to travel."

 

[thedbdiboy]

In your appeal or correspondence, please make use of the ATOC Code of Practice for Ticket Irregularities, which East Coast have signed up to (you can find it on the Nationalrail.co.uk website).
Despite some of the more strident opinions expressed here, that document makes clear that Train Companies should consider the full circumstances of any ticket irregularity. Whilst the issue of the UFN is procedurally correct, subsequent proof that you did indeed have a valid Railcard should be considered in an appeal - whilst it doesn't provide an automatic right to have the fare waived it provides evidence that it was a genuine mistake

 

[jon0844]

Originally, wouldn't at least one child need to pay simply for the adult to get a legitimate F&F railcard discount?

But if under 5, neither would need one for the new ticket being sold to the adult.

 

[bb21]

Originally, wouldn't at least one child need to pay simply for the adult to get a legitimate F&F railcard discount?

But if under 5, neither would need one for the new ticket being sold to the adult.

I would say so, since in those situations the original tickets were no longer being used.

 

[Haywain]

Unfortunately, the OP hasn't been responded to questions about the age of the children, so I don't think there is any point in assuming that they were actually under 5 years of age. We know from other threads of parents who feel that there adult fare paying offspring are still children, so we should be careful about interpreting the meaning of "young children".

 

[island]

I would point out at this juncture that in order to avoid substantial admin/late-payment fees being added to the UPFN, the OP should ensure payment is made by the indicated date. This may be as little as 10 days after the journey. Payment is due irrespective and independently of any appeal the passenger may wish to make.

 

[Hazlehead]

As many have said we don't know the full story. Personally I would have been more lenient. However there is an issue with this word discretion that seems to bound around alot lately. I've even had passengers tell me I have it and countless ticket office and station staff telling passengers I have it too. I know I have it as I'm a sensible,reasonable and person who treats people fairly on a daily basis. However discretion is there to be used on a ONE off occurrence for say a little old dear thats half hour early on her advance ticket. Not 5,6,10,12 times Per Train because someone bought a cheap ticket knowing full well the restrictions but feels it's their right for you to let them go on any train. When a polite no is told then it is usually met with"Well I've done it several times before why you being a jobsworth" etc etc. Or " My railcard is only a month out of date". I use my discretion daily in my job but there has to be a cut off point because over time many people come to abuse it regularly. At that point it no longer is discretion but basically a p#@ take

 

[cringer123]

Hello I had to pay the unpaid fare notice but have since been refunded. Btw some of the comments suggested I was kicking offwith the guard. That was never the case by getting upset I actually mean getting upset! I was nearly in tears as it was so much money.

 

[30907]

Good news and thanks for the update.

 

[Nick W]

What stage in the journey did this happen?

Were you offered the chance to get off before London and pay less of a fare?

 

[cringer123]

I couldn't get off as we had gone past the last stop before my destination.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also I wasn't given any options - only presented with unpaid fare notice.

 

[easy551]

Contrary to the National Terms and Conditions of Carriage, East Coast's policy is thus:

If a passenger boads a train and is unable to show their railcard but their ticket is valid for the journey and time train, they are to pay the 'difference' in fare and are not required to buy a 'new' ticket. Should an Unpaid Fare's Notice be issued, the price on the Unpaid Fares Notice should be the same to that of the 'difference' in fare and not the full fare PROVIDING THE TICKET IS VALID.

Again, without the ticket details, I can't help any more.

 

[island]

Did you sign the unpaid fair notice?

 

[cringer123]

Yes I did, I didn't know what else To do. I'm just glad its sorted and I have seriously cut down on my train use.

 

[GadgetMan]

Yes I did, I didn't know what else To do. I'm just glad its sorted and I have seriously cut down on my train use.

It was the correct thing to do when you're in the wrong. Refusing to sign it would only get you into more trouble. Not sure why the question about signing it has been raised.

 

[yorkie]

Contrary to the National Terms and Conditions of Carriage, East Coast's policy is thus:

If a passenger boads a train and is unable to show their railcard but their ticket is valid for the journey and time train, they are to pay the 'difference' in fare and are not required to buy a 'new' ticket. Should an Unpaid Fare's Notice be issued, the price on the Unpaid Fares Notice should be the same to that of the 'difference' in fare and not the full fare PROVIDING THE TICKET IS VALID.

Interesting, thanks. How would you do that if the passenger holds an Advance fare? A custom excess?

This cropped up in Excesses - Railcard to non-railcard, the passenger tried at a ticket office, but it had closed early, then on another train a friendly ATW Guard said he could issue an excess but it would have to be to the appropriate walk-up fare (in that case an SDS, as there was no CDS/SVS) as it wasn't possible to excess to an Advance, and that he'd be better off asking the Guard of the train in question as he might be let off, as the ticket office at origin was going to be closed.

The ATW Guard on the train in question said he couldn't even excess from an Advance (which I know isn't true, but he may have meant it's their policy not to do so) so his only options were to charge a new SDS ticket, or let him off. The Guard was very nice about it.

So the passenger had tried numerous times to pay the difference in fares, but no-one at ATW actually wanted to take his money!

Would an EC guard have issued a custom excess and issued the excess in less time than it took me to type this up then?

Again, without the ticket details, I can't help any more.

Agreed, it's frustrating that we often don't get to hear the full details, though in this case the situation was resolved so it doesn't matter