Unpaid Fare Notice

[jradic]

Hi,

We were Travelling on the return leg of our London - Newcastle (returning back to London) on August 4th. We had missed our train and got on the next one. We were told at the ticket barrier that it shouldn't be an issue. Hindsight, we should have checked prior to boarding the next train. As a result, my missus and I got an unpaid fare notice for the leg down to London for £79.85 each.

A couple questions about our plan to appeal

1) I'm assuming given I have only 21 days that it's best to pay and file the appeal to prevent any fines?
2) Despite what we were told at the ticket barriers, I know they're going to throw it back saying I should have checked before boarding the actual train. I'm guessing go with the apologetic view?

 

[yorkie]

Hi,

We were Travelling on the return leg of our London - Newcastle (returning back to London) on August 4th. We had missed our train and got on the next one. We were told at the ticket barrier that it shouldn't be an issue. Hindsight, we should have checked prior to boarding the next train. As a result, my missus and I got an unpaid fare notice for the leg down to London for £79.85 each.

It's difficult to comment on this, as I do not know if you have any Railcards, nor do I know what the cost of your original tickets were.

I'm going to guess you had a Railcard, in which case the fare is exactly correct for a Super Off Peak Single (SSS).

A couple questions about our plan to appeal

1) I'm assuming given I have only 21 days that it's best to pay and file the appeal to prevent any fines?

If you don't pay within 21 days, the debt collection agency add fees.

2) Despite what we were told at the ticket barriers, I know they're going to throw it back saying I should have checked before boarding the actual train. I'm guessing go with the apologetic view?

Did you show your ticket to the gateline staff and they endorsed your ticket?

Or did ticketing not come into it, in which case if you didn't declare the fact you had a "booked train only" Advance ticket, there was no agreement in place regarding ticketing and the fact you could take the next one was more a statement of fact.

Did the gateline staff know your destination and ticket type? What exactly was said?

 

[island]

Aside from what yorkie has mentioned, it is important to note that payment of an unpaid fare notice is required within the indicated time period irrespective of any appeal with you may be wishing to lodge. Failure to pay will lead to administration fees being added on. Payment will be refunded if you make a successful appeal.

 

[455driver]

When you asked the gateline assistant if you could catch the next train did you tell them you had advance tickets valid only on the train you had missed?
If no then your appeal will fail.
If yes than can you prove it, without proof your appeal will fail.

I would just pay up and put it down to experience, Advance fares are cheap for a reason.

 

[jradic]

It's difficult to comment on this, as I do not know if you have any Railcards, nor do I know what the cost of your original tickets were.

I'm going to guess you had a Railcard, in which case the fare is exactly correct for a Super Off Peak Single (SSS).

If you don't pay within 21 days, the debt collection agency add fees.

Did you show your ticket to the gateline staff and they endorsed your ticket?

Or did ticketing not come into it, in which case if you didn't declare the fact you had a "booked train only" Advance ticket, there was no agreement in place regarding ticketing and the fact you could take the next one was more a statement of fact.

Did the gateline staff know your destination and ticket type? What exactly was said?

- We have a together travel railcard which we had on us and showed at the ticket barrier and on the train
- Basically told them our train time and they said we just missed the train.
- Showed them our ticket at which point they glanced at it and told us to proceed to the platform and that it shouldn't be an issue.

 

[yorkie]

- We have a together travel railcard which we had on us and showed at the ticket barrier and on the train

In that case, the charge is correct as per the rules. A few years ago the rules used to be to charge a full Anytime fare with no Railcard discounts!

- Basically told them our train time and they said we just missed the train.
- Showed them our ticket at which point they glanced at it and told us to proceed to the platform and that it shouldn't be an issue.

That's surprising. I would have asked for something in writing, and also approached the Guard before boarding (or as soon as practicable).

If you didn't get anything in writing, then good luck with that.

 

[455driver]

So your defence is basically 'the man on the platform said it would be okay', sorry but I cant see an appeal on that basis working.

 

[Clip]

- We have a together travel railcard which we had on us and showed at the ticket barrier and on the train
- Basically told them our train time and they said we just missed the train.
- Showed them our ticket at which point they glanced at it and told us to proceed to the platform and that it shouldn't be an issue.

Its important to clarify what ticket you actually held. Are you sure you showed them the tickets and not just the reservation at the barrier?

 

[bb21]

Did you miss your train at Newcastle because of a prior delay from somewhere else into Newcastle?

 

[VauxhallandI]

So your defence is basically 'the man on the platform said it would be okay', sorry but I cant see an appeal on that basis working.

It would be nice if the lovely people in their uniforms stopped telling people it was ok then maybe people wouldn't be honey trapped?

 

[jradic]

So your defence is basically 'the man on the platform said it would be okay', sorry but I cant see an appeal on that basis working.

I understand that I have no proof to support this, hence the apologetic route. When racing to the train, the last thing I was thinking about was getting proof to support an employees claim. I'd like to believe the employee overlooked the reservation ticket which is why we got stung on the Unpaid Fair.

Didn't miss it because of a prior delay - accident on the motorway so didn't get to our train on time.

I don't agree with being charged the full amount for journey (that's for another day) and I would have been livid on the train if it was a full price anytime fare when it was 30-40% empty.

 

[Clip]

It would be nice if the lovely people in their uniforms stopped telling people it was ok then maybe people wouldn't be honey trapped?

It is no honey trap at all. In fact through my experience in a front line facing role the question that is more times than not asked of you is not the full question of all the details required.

 

[VauxhallandI]

It is no honey trap at all. In fact through my experience in a front line facing role the question that is more times than not asked of you is not the full question of all the details required.

As maybe in some cases but front the evidence above all documentation was shown and the correct question was asked.

 

[Tibbs]

It is no honey trap at all. In fact through my experience in a front line facing role the question that is more times than not asked of you is not the full question of all the details required.

No, but it is about staff taking responsibility for what they say. They must know that passengers aren't going to be believed when they say 'the man on the patform said...' so why do they keep doing it? Especially when they know a simple endorsement (I'm thinking an 'ok Rick' as per Casablanca and an employee number) would eliminate any issues.

 

[bb21]

Didn't miss it because of a prior delay - accident on the motorway so didn't get to our train on time.

I know this is of no use now for this occasion but for future reference, it is much better to ask staff for permission before boarding, specifically the guard. They are much more likely to show discretion if approached in this way as it shows that you were not trying to chance it, and the vast majority of staff ime are reasonable people who, if explained the circumstances like yours here, would probably allow travel for no extra charge. There is of course no guarantee as officially speaking you should be charged.

I agree with the others in that although you may have a case arguing that you were given permission by a representative of the railway company, it is difficult to prove it.

I don't agree with being charged the full amount for journey (that's for another day) and I would have been livid on the train if it was a full price anytime fare when it was 30-40% empty.

You cannot be charged the full fare (Anytime Single without any Railcard discount - £150.50 each in your case) any more if that is not the cheapest prevailing walk-on fare since (I think) 2012 if you miss your booking and uses a later train by the same company on the same day, so an element of discretion has been applied throughout by the industry in a rare passenger friendly move. It is of scant consolation of course as £80 is still a lot of money, but it could have been worse as it used to be.

I would say pay it, and submit an appeal at the same time. If you explain your circumstances, exactly what conversation took place on the day and appeal to their better nature, you might be pleasantly surprised. Whatever you do, don't bleat on about how unfair it is as you want the person reading your appeal to be on your side.

 

[jradic]

I know this is of no use now for this occasion but for future reference, it is much better to ask staff for permission before boarding, specifically the guard. They are much more likely to show discretion if approached in this way as it shows that you were not trying to chance it, and the vast majority of staff ime are reasonable people who, if explained the circumstances like yours here, would probably allow travel for no extra charge. There is of course no guarantee as officially speaking you should be charged.

I agree with the others in that although you may have a case arguing that you were given permission by a representative of the railway company, it is difficult to prove it.



You cannot be charged the full fare (Anytime Single without any Railcard discount - £150.50 each in your case) any more if that is not the cheapest prevailing walk-on fare since (I think) 2012 if you miss your booking and uses a later train by the same company on the same day, so an element of discretion has been applied throughout by the industry in a rare passenger friendly move. It is of scant consolation of course as £80 is still a lot of money, but it could have been worse as it used to be.

I would say pay it, and submit an appeal at the same time. If you explain your circumstances, exactly what conversation took place on the day and appeal to their better nature, you might be pleasantly surprised. Whatever you do, don't bleat on about how unfair it is as you want the person reading your appeal to be on your side.

Sounds good. Is it worth contacting East Coast in regards to the appeal or do I do it straight with RPSS?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

No, but it is about staff taking responsibility for what they say. They must know that passengers aren't going to be believed when they say 'the man on the patform said...' so why do they keep doing it? Especially when they know a simple endorsement (I'm thinking an 'ok Rick' as per Casablanca and an employee number) would eliminate any issues.

They keep saying it (and I know they do as I have overheard and witnessed staff say it) because they do not want to get into a potential conflict situation and just want to pass the buck to get the passenger out of their station. That way it is somebody else's problem. The standard phrase "have a word with the conductor, it is up to them" also comes out a lot for many reasons, mainly to pass the buck and get rid of the passenger for somebody else to deal with.

 

[bb21]

Sounds good. Is it worth contacting East Coast in regards to the appeal or do I do it straight with RPSS?

There is no harm appealling to both, although I wouldn't hold my breath with RPSS.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I'd go as far as to say ONLY as the guard as anyone else's word is worth bugger all, especially to some on here...

 

[Tibbs]

I'd go as far as to say ONLY as the guard as anyone else's word is worth bugger all, especially to some on here...

I've certainly learned that unless someone's willing to put it in writing, I'm taking anything said with a huge pinch of salt.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I've certainly learned that unless someone's willing to put it in writing, I'm taking anything said with a huge pinch of salt.

Anyone could squiggle on a ticket ?

 

[Ddraig]

They keep saying it (and I know they do as I have overheard and witnessed staff say it) because they do not want to get into a potential conflict situation and just want to pass the buck to get the passenger out of their station. That way it is somebody else's problem. The standard phrase "have a word with the conductor, it is up to them" also comes out a lot for many reasons, mainly to pass the buck and get rid of the passenger for somebody else to deal with.

Telling people to talk to the conductor is usually the correct approach, since their ticket is not valid and most staff at the station are not supposed to authorise travel on invalid tickets The guard on the train, if you approach them prior to boarding can give them permission to board if the passenger explains the situation, or else tell them how much extra it will cost them to take that train. By doing this they will have avoided a penalty fare (since they have asked permission prior to undertaking the travel) so will have paid the least to make their ticket valid (though, I'm not sure if that helps if the booked journey includes connections, especially if it involves different companies' trains). Alternatively, you can send them to the booking office, but I'm not sure how much they can help if the train has been missed. What is important is that the passenger is aware there is still a problem that needs resolving by another person, otherwise they may think you have authorised them to travel with their ticket.

 

[Clip]

As maybe in some cases but front the evidence above all documentation was shown and the correct question was asked.

No, but it is about staff taking responsibility for what they say. They must know that passengers aren't going to be believed when they say 'the man on the patform said...' so why do they keep doing it? Especially when they know a simple endorsement (I'm thinking an 'ok Rick' as per Casablanca and an employee number) would eliminate any issues.

Well as the question I asked of the OP has not been answered then I cant possibly say. But I can say that Newcastle is a barriered station and that the OP has said they 'raced to the train' also raises questions of what was shown to the barrier staff when they were in such a rush to get the train that was there.

 

[Haywain]

Telling people to talk to the conductor is usually the correct approach, since their ticket is not valid and most staff at the station are not supposed to authorise travel on invalid tickets.

But at some TOCs it is better to go to the ticket office in the first instance, because they issue 'amended travel' documents to validate those tickets on trains on which they would not otherwise be valid. I know that both First Great Western and East Coast do this.

 

[maniacmartin]

But at some TOCs it is better to go to the ticket office in the first instance, because they issue 'amended travel' documents to validate those tickets on trains on which they would not otherwise be valid. I know that both First Great Western and East Coast do this.

My experience of Virgin is the ticket office will want to sell you a whole new ticket, whereas if you just boarded you would only pay the difference!

 

[jradic]

Well as the question I asked of the OP has not been answered then I cant possibly say. But I can say that Newcastle is a barriered station and that the OP has said they 'raced to the train' also raises questions of what was shown to the barrier staff when they were in such a rush to get the train that was there.

We raced for the train and missed it. By the time we got to the barrier, our train was already gone. All tickets and reservations were shown. The barrier was open but the gaurd was there gaurding it and checking all tickets.

 

[Deerfold]

Well as the question I asked of the OP has not been answered then I cant possibly say. But I can say that Newcastle is a barriered station and that the OP has said they 'raced to the train' also raises questions of what was shown to the barrier staff when they were in such a rush to get the train that was there.

An advance will usually work the barrier so long as it's the right day.