Unreserved portion on an AP ticket...

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by thewolf, 27 Oct 2011.

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  1. thewolf

    thewolf Member

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    Quick query relating to my next trip down to Sheringham...

    I have booked a train from Liverpool Street at 2030, changing at Norwich onto the 2247 to Sheringham (or something around those times).

    The Sheringham section is unreserved.

    I don't intend on continuing to Sheringham that evening and have booked a Travelodge in Norwich with the intention of going out to Sheringham the next morning.

    As the Sheringham portion of the journey is unreserved, does this mean I can get the first train (or something early on) from Norwich to Sheringham as long as I'm there before midday? (I think that's right that you can break a journey overnight as long as you get to your destination by midday) Or will I need to get a new ticket for the morning?

    Ta.
     
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  3. Solent&Wessex

    Solent&Wessex Established Member

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    You would need to purchase a new single ticket for the following morning.

    Whilst the train from Norwich to Sheringham is unreserved, you are obliged to travel on connecting trains shown on the itinerary relating to your original booking, so therefore would not be valid the following morning (unless it was booked as such in the first place).
     
  4. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I agree. The Advance ticket T&Cs state:
    (yes, I realise that some Advance tickets have booked overnight travel - but this would be shown on the ticket).

    I think that you could be on thin ice, since although the Sheringham leg isn't reserved, it still has to be "part of a valid travel itinerary" - and deliberately not getting it may constitute a change of travel plans. Leaving Norwich station before the 2247 departs would certainly constitute a break of journey, which is expressly not permitted. Opinions differ on the finer points of Advance tickets and unreserved legs thereof, so I'll reserve judgement...

    Practically however I can't see any trouble as it is late, and so reasonable to want to stop off, and you're unlikely to be challenged at Norwich anyway!
     
  5. Zoe

    Zoe Established Member

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    Last time we had this discussion one of the points was that the onus is on you to ask for an intinerary or to write down the trains you are told by the staff at the ticket office.
     
  6. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Not necessarily. For example, even at short notice I can book on East Coast a £21.85 Advance single Kings X - Appleby for travel on Sunday 30 October:
    The unreservable 05:55 from Leeds will not appear on any ticket, but if I were making this particular journey I would print and carry my itinerary to avoid dispute over travelling on the day after the one shown as "Valid Until" on the ticket.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    I don't agree. I would choose to carry the itinerary to make life easier for me, but I know of no instruction which compels the passenger to ask for an intinerary or to write down the trains you are told by the staff. In the absence of such an instruction, a passenger without either must be carried.
     
  7. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    There is no instruction to carry an itinerary, but the passenger should be aware of the connecting train times, in some cases carrying an itinerary is the easiest way for them to know this.

    I don't know if Norwich has barriers, but if it does, or a revenue block is in operation, the Op may find themselves having to buy a new ticket to leave the station as break of journey is not permitted with Advance tickets. A new ticket would be needed in the morning though.
     
  8. Zoe

    Zoe Established Member

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    The onus is on you to remember all your booked trains though, if you don't ask for an intinerary or write them all down then you run the risk of forgetting your booked trains.
     
  9. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Norwich does have barriers and they can retain more tix than you might expect.
     
  10. button_boxer

    button_boxer Established Member

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    As usual the argument boils down to whether a train on which you do not hold a reservation counts as a "booked train" or not. Some people think it does, some think it doesn't, the Advance ticket FAQs that have been discussed here in the past say you can travel on an earlier connecting train if it is non-reservable but don't say anything about later ones...
     
  11. transportphoto

    transportphoto Established Member Quizmaster

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    If I were to go down to technicalities, no you can not 'stop short' on your London - Sheringham ticket as it is an 'advance' ticket and break of journey is not permitted.

    However, the chances of getting away with it are high. Norwich barriers are hardly ever in operation at that sort of time, of cause a new ticket will be needed for onward travel to Sheringham.

    TP
     
  12. Zoe

    Zoe Established Member

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    Unless the ticket says &Connections then you are only allowed to travel on booked trains regardless of if a reservation is made or not. If a later train doesn't get you to your connection in time then it clearly can't be the train you were booked on.
     
  13. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

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    Condition 16 states:
    "If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station
    when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess
    fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of
    the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to
    start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have
    used."
    http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf
    Therefore, assuming you have a second class ticket and the booking office is open when you leave Liverpool St, the excess at the Norwich ticket barrier would be £55.40 (the price of a London Terminals-Norwich open single) less the fare already paid. If you pay the excess before travelling, it would be £44.70 (the cost of the saver single), less the fare already paid. If it is cheaper, you may wish to buy a new London Terminals-Norwich advance single.

    I agree that a new Norwich-Sheringham day single will be bought in the morning at a cost of £6.00.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    I don't believe it does. It is either a break of journey, in which case it is prohibited by the advance ticket conditions, or it is not a break of journey. The only case for the latter I can think of is if "you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day". As there is a train to Sherringham later that day, I don't think this can be the case.
     
  14. thewolf

    thewolf Member

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    Ok, a new single it is in the morning I guess.

    I'm not overly concerned about the 'stopping short' aspect, but if I were to get pulled up on it when I go through the barriers, there is always the excuse of going for a fag break - I wouldn't expect anyone would come to 'supervise' me in that case...
     
  15. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    The barriers won't be in operation at that time and in any case all the station facilities I can think of at Norwich are on the unpaid side of the barrier, so no need to give the fag break excuse to access the facilities.
     
  16. transportphoto

    transportphoto Established Member Quizmaster

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    But the facilities will be closed at that time ;) :smile:
     
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