Urgent help required

[34567321]

I was travelling from station a to c at the weekend

A group of friends and myself were looking forward to the day out and stupidly thought we'd have a joke with the ticket officer.

When we went to the the unpaid fares office, we mentioned we got on at station b. I need to make it clear we only joking and no intention to defraud the rail company, the ticket girl was in no mood for jokes and asked where we really departed from. Not realising the seriousness of the situation 2 revenue protection officers approached us and questioned us about our journey.

Station b was 1 stop from station c (walking distance and not on the route we took, which again i reiterate naively thought this would be funny). We listed all the station that was on route still not releasing the seriousness of the situation when questioned by the revenue protection officer. I made it clear after realising the situation unfolding that we came from station c and wished to pay the correct fare but was told it was now not possible.

We had no intention to pay from station b, all i can describe it as "seeing what they would say" as it was so close and ridiculous to lie due to barriers being in place etc...

I feel that i have unintentionally incriminated myself by answering yes to all the questions asked by the inspector. Questions such as,

"I put it to you that would of defrauded the rail company"
" I put it to you that without me stopping you would of resulted in paying a lesser fare"

I had cash on me to pay the correct fair there and then.

I was answering yes to leave the situation as i then felt uncomfortable and didn't want to argue a fuss and just to pay for my fare... to which i was told i cannot now do.

We were told by the inspector that you will probably have to pay the train ticket in the post. Having researched this and the prospect of a criminal record under sect5 1889 act for such a trivial (in my eyes, not in the train company) joke/ "having a joke with friends" is quite stressful.

I'm a young professional and the thought of a criminal record is soul destroying as it would certainly hamper my career aspirations that i built for 5 years and currently work in. I will undoubtedly lose my job from these naive actions and find it very hard to get reemployment.

any advice out there, this seems a friendly forum?

I think i need to make contact with the company asap and it seems in my eyes i have wrongly and unintentionally incriminated myself via the witness statement from the inspector that will undoubtedly be used against me and most probably result in a conviction. Is there a chance of out of court settlement if i explain my version of events an prove there was no intent and offer the fare in addition to administrative costs and reasonable compensation for my actions?

I understand my actions were completely wrong and remorseful for this.

I always buy a ticket on the train and the guard didn't come round although we sat right by the drivers door, so thought the unpaid fares office would be suitable stop in this instance. ( i now know this is wrong should aways buy a ticket prior to departing).

I've used station a,b,c for protection purposes.

I couldn't believe that the inspection officer didn't warn of the consequence of joking the second they picked up on something and be, "Guys this is a very serious matter, i'll give you chance, where did you come from, is there a way you can prove you come from there via documentation with an address on?".

Thanks for any help/advice given

 

[cuccir]

Well, you've got yourself in quite a pickle. It would be useful if you could tell us the train company invovled as they do all take different approaches.

First, I'd drop any sense that this was a 'joke' or some such. That won't impress the authorities with whom you're now dealing. And simply put, I hope you can see how anyone could say 'it was a joke'/'we were messing around': as far as the company you're dealing with is concerned, it doesn't matter WHY you were trying to avoid the fare - what matters is that you were trying to avoid the fare.

Second, yes, you're right to say that you've incriminated yourself. Again, it matters little what your reasoning was: you said those things and that's on record.

Third - the standard practice would be to wait to hear from the train company. Most will write to you, letting you know what legislation they're considering prosecuting you under, and you will have the opportunity to respond apologetically and to offer to settle out of court. You could make contact sooner - I'd give it a few days at least (if this was on the weekend the report is probably still not yet with the prosecutions team, or at least will have arrived today with all the cases over the weekend) - but it's usually not necessary. Again, knowing the train company will help in assessing the likelihood of an out of court settlement.

I'm a young professional and the thought of a criminal record is soul destroying as it would certainly hamper my career aspirations that i built for 5 years and currently work in. I will undoubtedly lose my job from these naive actions and find it very hard to get reemployment.

On this matter - well it does depend on your industry, but don't panic. A conviction for the more serious Act that you may be prosecuted under (Regulations of the Railway) would come with a fine and with a criminal record that would likely be considered unspent for 1 year only, after which you would not have to declare it when applying for jobs. A conviction under the Railway Bylaws carries a fine but no criminal record. Your contract with your current employer will inform you as to whether you have to inform them about any conviction, but even then you will be surprised how many people in professional jobs have some form of criminal conviction - if you're in good standing with your employer, frankly I'd be surprised if they wanted to waste the 5 years of training that they've put into you. Again, it is dependent on job/industry/company and clearly there are sectors where it's a bigger problem, but the effects are unlikely to be this severe.

 

[Agent_c]

I don't understand whats so funny in the "joke" you were trying to pull. As I told the Trump University Salesman "I'm not buying that".

But that aside.

Wait for the train company to contact you, and be prepared to pay for it in the hundred pound range.

Which train company is it?

 

[Chapeltom]

I couldn't believe that the inspection officer didn't warn of the consequence of joking the second they picked up on something and be, "Guys this is a very serious matter, i'll give you chance, where did you come from, is there a way you can prove you come from there via documentation with an address on?".

Maybe because no-one would see it as a joking matter and the railway has proved that with their subsequent actions. The railway is no different to any other service or product you use, you wouldn't go to a supermarket and then pull something out your jacket, and say, 'Oh, we have these too'. Maybe that's not a great analogy though. You asked for a ticket from B to C when the fare was lower than that of A-C, the journey you actually made. Even if was a joke, you can't expect the railway to turn round and say 'Oh yes, we understand.'

Joking about a rail fare isn't something most adults would do, I'm 24 and when I was 16/17, I'm sure a lot of my peers would have found it funny, as a young professional, you have to realise actions have consequences. I've made stupid mistakes as an adult, but this is one mistake where you need to take responsibility and understand, there are going to be consequences. You won't weasel yourself out of this by maintaining it was a joke, you have to admit you've done wrong and sadly for you, depending on the company you may end up in court.

 

[34567321]

Which train company is it?

It's arrival trains wales i assume,

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/nearly-200-rail-fare-dodgers-9961224

and i guess it would be a similar outcome to the news article above

 

[Islineclear3_1]

This is no joke...

You have travelled with intent not to pay the correct fare or not to pay at all

Wait for the TOC to contact you - they may well decide to throw the book at you and go for prosecution - or you might be lucky and get an offer to settle out of court.

This is a very serious matter and now you have to face the consequences of your "joke"

 

[6Gman]

I was travelling from station a to c at the weekend, i normally travel this route often.

A group of friends and myself were looking forward to the day out and stupidly thought we'd have a joke with the ticket officer.

When we went to the the unpaid fares office, we mentioned we got on at station b. I need to make it clear we only joking and no intention to defraud the rail company, the ticket girl was in no mood for jokes and asked where we really departed from. Not realising the seriousness of the situation 2 revenue protection officers approached us and questioned us about our journey.

Station b was 1 stop from station c (walking distance and not on the route we took, which again i reiterate naively thought this would be funny). We listed all the station that was on route still not releasing the seriousness of the situation when questioned by the revenue protection officer. I made it clear after realising the situation unfolding that we came from station c and wished to pay the correct fare but was told it was now not possible.

We had no intention to pay from station b, all i can describe it as "seeing what they would say" as it was so close and ridiculous to lie due to barriers being in place etc...

I've used station a,b,c for protection purposes.

I couldn't believe that the inspection officer didn't warn of the consequence of joking the second they picked up on something and be, "Guys this is a very serious matter, i'll give you chance, where did you come from, is there a way you can prove you come from there via documentation with an address on?".

Thanks for any help/advice given

I don't understand the section underlined.

What does "we listed all the station that was on route" mean?

Were you still - if you'll pardon the expression - "pratting about" even after being approached by the revenue protection officers?

 

[34567321]

Yes pratting around. It was still to the ticket lady at the unpaid fair offices. I guess the inspector heard all.

 

[34567321]

Does anyone know if you can have a mitigation style meeting with the officers in a chance to settle out of court?

 

[Greenback]

I fail to see the purpose of this 'joke' unless it was to either have a bit of fun at someone's expense, make unnecessary work for the clerk, or avoid the proper fare. None of those reasons reflect well on you and your friends, and the result of this misguided larking about, if that's what it was, is that you are now in a bit of trouble.

You'll just have to wait and see what happens when the train company contacts you. They may decide to prosecute you, or they may ask for your version of events before making any decision. That will provide you with the opportunity to apologise profusely and offer a settlement.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Does anyone know if you can have a mitigation style meeting with the officers in a chance to settle out of court?

The short answer is a probable no.

The inspectors will have written their reports and sent them to the TOC. My understanding of the system is that the TOC will decide whether to go straight to prosecution or ask you for your side of the story with an offer to settle out of court.

You will now have to sit back and wait for their letter. Expect this to take some time.

I hope you realise now that this could get very serious

 

[6Gman]

Yes pratting around. It was still to the ticket lady at the unpaid fair offices. I guess the inspector heard all.

I still don't quite understand what "we listed all the station that was on route" means.

If you mean that you told the Clerk "we came from Bache; no Hooton; was it Bebbington? it could have been Rock Ferry" [a random example] If so I'm not surprised they took a dim view!

There is a thing on here called "The Attitude Test". It influences how much discretion staff are likely to show. I fear you may have failed the Test badly.

Wait for the letter. See what it says. Come back on here for further advice. It is possible however that they could go straight to prosecution since attempting to short-fare shows clear intent.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Other people here will, and I see have already, give you much better railway advice than I ever could.

The one thing I would suggest, seeing the level of humour you and your friends have, is not to fly anywhere, or maybe if you do let me know when and allow me the fun of seeing the security officers haul you off to explain why some jokes aren't funny.

People who work in shops, banks, ticket offices etc have enough to do anyway, and are not put there to be the butt of peoples misplaced and unfunny jokes.

 

[furlong]

However much you might say now that you'd no intention of defrauding the railway, the law is only going to be interested in how the situation looked to rational observers at the time and you're suggesting you gave the company everything it needs in this respect to obtain a straightforward criminal conviction (under RORA).

When the letter arrives, you may now need to be extremely apologetic and demonstrate genuine remorse to show you have learned your lesson and understand the trouble you caused so that the company concludes it is unnecessary to involve the courts - something that certainly does not shine through what you have written so far here, I'm sorry to say.

 

[TheEdge]

If I'm brutally honest the amount of times people were "only having a joke" when the BTP or RPIs were threatened is really rather high. Don't be surprised if the TOC doesn't believe you.

 

[Hadders]

I'm guessing the you had trouble at Cardiff Central and claimed you came from Grangetown....

You'll probably get sent a letter from the Train Operating Company asking for your version of events. I suggest you write a contrite letter apologising for you actions, stating what you've learnt from the episode and offer to pay the company's reasonable administrative costs in dealing with the matter.

Then hope the train company are willing to settle out of court.

 

[cuccir]

It's arrival trains wales i assume,

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/nearly-200-rail-fare-dodgers-9961224

and i guess it would be a similar outcome to the news article above

OK, well ATW are probably a 'middling' company with regards to their tendency towards prosecuting. I've had a quick search these seem to be the 4 most recent incidents we've seen on these forums involving Arriva Train Wales:

1, 2, 3, 4. Two of these obtained a settlement, one didn't seem to, and the other did not return to update us.

Your case will likely be passed on to Transport Investigations Limited, who will investigate it and write to you. When you respond apologise: state that you recognize your error, offer to settle. There's a chance that they will settle, though the bad news for you seems to be that your case is closest to case (2), where a settlement wasn't offered. Still - each case is explored individually, and the decisions may turn on eg how busy they are at any one time.

In the event of them not accepting a settlement your actions would then depend on what your charged under. If it's the Railway Bylaws - then the best bet is to accept it, pay the fine, and walk away - you don't get a criminal record, you don't have to declare it to anyone, it's happened and done. If it's the Regulations of the Railways Act, then this is the more serious offence: at that point you should look to engage a solicitor, who may be able to obtain an out of court settlement on your behalf or advise you on defence.

 

[34567321]

In the event of them not accepting a settlement your actions would then depend on what your charged under. If it's the Railway Bylaws - then the best bet is to accept it, pay the fine, and walk away - you don't get a criminal record, you don't have to declare it to anyone, it's happened and done. If it's the Regulations of the Railways Act, then this is the more serious offence: at that point you should look to engage a solicitor, who may be able to obtain an out of court settlement on your behalf or advise you on defence.[/QUOTE]

Hi, Yes the stations involved were cardiff and grange town.

Let's face it, it will most probably be the latter and more serious offence, a solicitor seems to be the most appropriate form of action in hope to minimise the impact this will have on my life. Would it be worth trying to settle myself initially and then get a solicitor if i fail to do so?

Thanks

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Let's face it, it will most probably be the latter and more serious offence, a solicitor seems to be the most appropriate form of action in hope to minimise the impact this will have on my life. Would it be worth trying to settle myself initially and then get a solicitor if i fail to do so?
Thanks

You could try contacting the TOC yourself and see if they are prepared to accept your offer. However don't expect to pay just the outstanding fare, there will be admin costs too.

However if they are not prepared to accept your offer on the spot, you might just have to wait until the letter arrives.

 

[cuccir]

Hi, Yes the stations involved were cardiff and grange town.

Let's face it, it will most probably be the latter and more serious offence, a solicitor seems to be the most appropriate form of action in hope to minimise the impact this will have on my life. Would it be worth trying to settle myself initially and then get a solicitor if i fail to do so?

Thanks

It depends on your resources a bit: solicitors are not cheap, and certainly are more expensive than a bylaws prosecution. And yes while they may have evidence for the RoRA, we have seen cases on here where companies chose the Bylaws anyway, simply because its much easier for them. You also don't know what evidence they have: an RPI can easily mess up writing his notes, or lose details etc etc which would damage a RoRA prosecution, whereas for a Bylaws prosecution all they need to show is that you had no ticket where you could have purchased one.

On the other hand, yes - a good solicitor is probably more likely to be able to settle out of court, and may make a prosecution team think twice due to the prospect of having to do a bit more work. I'd generally lean towards waiting and trying to settle yourself in response to the initial investigations letter first, before engaging a solicitor. However if you have the money to spare, and particularly if you think you'd be obliged to tell your current employer about any convictions, then a solicitor may increase your chances of success, yes.

 

[bb21]

Hi, Yes the stations involved were cardiff and grange town.

Asking for the cheapest fare that will get you through the gateline rarely goes down well and sets all sorts of alarm bells ringing instantly. It is one of the most widely practised frauds on the railway.

All is not lost, as for a first time offence, there is a good chance you will be allowed to settle out of court. Expect to do a lot of grovelling and a significantly lighter wallet by the end though.

 

[gray1404]

To the OP: Was it just your details that were taken or did they take the details for and question your friends too? I am wondering if you have all ended up in the same situation here.

 

[Master29]

Does anyone know if you can have a mitigation style meeting with the officers in a chance to settle out of court?

At what point do you have any mitigating circumstances for your behaviour? Man up, stop beggaring about and face reality.